[SUBMT] Repeal "Liberate Confederation of Corrupt Dictators"

[Vrolondia]

An offensive liberation is nothing short of the security councils abuse of power towards a region that's don't nothing more than exist.

The mods have said using Liberations in this manner is not against the rules of the game. So you can cut the "abuse of power!" bs.

if you want to protest condemn, leave liberations to the fendas.

Condemnations are toothless to point of being seen as trophies by some pretty bad people.

At least an offensive liberation has teeth.

The mods also allow the r/d subgame so I mean, I don't give it much credence since they allow pretty much anything except predator and wa spamming.

[Prydania]

Hey Vrolondia. I caught your post before you deleted it.

Because it's hypocritical. Any imperial or monarchist nation is by any legal definition a fascist state.

Not really. It's more standard authoritarian than fascist.

The absolute monarchy super nationalistic colonistic imperial fantasy of everyone on this website is the exact definition of fascism in everything but name.

Again, no.
First you're projecting and generalizing. Prydania is a small, mostly rural kingdom with a lot of forests. IC Prydania has no desire for a colonial empire.

THAT ASIDE...

Colonialism and imperialism, while certainly not good things, are not fascist either.

Meanwhile communism is celebrated for projecting the exact same symptoms inwards instead of outwards while fascism is liberated in the security council for being a fascist.

Oh this again?
Look, if you cannot "defend" fascism without resorting to "whatabout communism?" then you have no argument.
Fascism fails on its own merits. As does communism. No one needs to drag on into a discussion about the other.

And if you feel strong enough about the evils of communism to author an offensive liberation against a communist region? I'll support it. I have in the past. Just as I support them against fascist regions.

It's like, jesus. Fascism is the popular kid to pick on when communism has literally turned north Korea into a nightmare, China does the same purges Germany did in the present day and soviet Russia killed around 50 million of its own people for no reason.

Again, see above. You can list me every crime committed by a communist government throughout world history.
I'll nod and say "that's all factual and accurate, but what does that have to do with fascism and its crimes?"

Because I'll tell you this. The crimes of communist governments do not in any way mitigate the crimes of fascists. You think the murder of my family members that died at Auschwitz is "ok" because a different madman in Russia killed tens of millions of his own people? Or that my family that survived Auschwitz will be comforted by knowing that they suffered a great deal "but hey Mao killed more people"?

Genocide is not an Olympic sport. I know fascist apologists like yourself have trouble with that concept, but it's true. There's a very good reason people don't like fascism. If you cannot understand why? Read a history book.

[Reploid Productions]

It's designed to help abused regions, not help the abusers.

On the contrary, it is designed to strip an executive WA delegate of the ability to password-lock a region. Nothing more, nothing less. That's all it was designed for.

Anything beyond that is purely the political workings of the World Assembly playerbase, whether to wield it as a shield to protect or as a sword to attack.

[Vrolondia]

Hey Vrolondia. I caught your post before you deleted it.

Because it's hypocritical. Any imperial or monarchist nation is by any legal definition a fascist state.

Not really. It's more standard authoritarian than fascist.

The absolute monarchy super nationalistic colonistic imperial fantasy of everyone on this website is the exact definition of fascism in everything but name.

Again, no.
First you're projecting and generalizing. Prydania is a small, mostly rural kingdom with a lot of forests. IC Prydania has no desire for a colonial empire.

THAT ASIDE...

Colonialism and imperialism, while certainly not good things, are not fascist either.

Meanwhile communism is celebrated for projecting the exact same symptoms inwards instead of outwards while fascism is liberated in the security council for being a fascist.

Oh this again?
Look, if you cannot "defend" fascism without resorting to "whatabout communism?" then you have no argument.
Fascism fails on its own merits. As does communism. No one needs to drag on into a discussion about the other.

And if you feel strong enough about the evils of communism to author an offensive liberation against a communist region? I'll support it. I have in the past. Just as I support them against fascist regions.

It's like, jesus. Fascism is the popular kid to pick on when communism has literally turned north Korea into a nightmare, China does the same purges Germany did in the present day and soviet Russia killed around 50 million of its own people for no reason.

Again, see above. You can list me every crime committed by a communist government throughout world history.
I'll nod and say "that's all factual and accurate, but what does that have to do with fascism and its crimes?"

Because I'll tell you this. The crimes of communist governments do not in any way mitigate the crimes of fascists. You think my family that died at Auschwitz is "ok" because a different madman in Russia killed tens of millions of his own people? Or that my family that survived Auschwitz will be comforted by knowing that they suffered a great deal "but hey Mao killed more people"?

Genocide is not an Olympic sport. I know fascist apologists like yourself have trouble with that concept, but it's true. There's a very good reason people don't like fascism. If you cannot understand why? Read a history book.

Ah thanks, deleted it because I messed up the quoting and then didn't save the text and said screw it I'm not retyping it.

Garden variety authoritarian is literally fascism. You can't have fascism without garden variety authoritarianism. Any hyper central state with a powerful authoritarian autocratic ruler who puts the needs of his state above other nations (literally every colonial empire ever pre french revolution) is fascist by definition.

I brought up communism because it's a terrible political system that destroyed lived for over a hundred years, while fascism as we know it was around a total of 20 and became universally hated because of one state when it wasn't even the founding state of fascism.

That's like saying democracy failed because of revolutionary France going through 5 republics in a hundred years when the first real democracy was the USA.

I'm not an apologist, I just like propping up unpopular opinions to see what I can stir up because it's funny.

Sorry about your family. The point I was getting at is fascism isn't the only atrocious genocide ridden political system, and you might have a problem with it but it's a slippery slope once you start universally condemning everything you hate based on what's popular right now.

[Sciongrad]

Why exactly do you propose we help a region of fascists here?

[Prydania]

Garden variety authoritarian is literally fascism. You can't have fascism without garden variety authoritarianism. Any hyper central state with a powerful authoritarian autocratic ruler who puts the needs of his state above other nations (literally every colonial empire ever pre french revolution) is fascist by definition.

Um, no. It's not.
Colonialism, imperialism, authoritarianism, and fascism are all very separate things. They can overlap (such as Nazi Germany's plans for Eastern Europe, where a fascist government had colonial ambitions), but they are not the same. At all.

I brought up communism because it's a terrible political system that destroyed lived for over a hundred years, while fascism as we know it was around a total of 20 and became universally hated because of one state when it wasn't even the founding state of fascism.

You say that as if fascism is somehow not that bad, despite of the actions of Nazi Germany?
Also good job ignoring the many atrocities of fascist states allied with Nazi Germany, including the state that originated fascism as a governing ideology.

That's like saying democracy failed because of revolutionary France going through 5 republics in a hundred years when the first real democracy was the USA.

I'll just quit dancing around the issue and just ask you some questions then.
1) Do you feel fascism as a system is desirable?
and
2) Do you feel that the crimes of fascist regimes in history are excused due to the scale of the crimes of communist regimes?

I'm not an apologist, I just like propping up unpopular opinions to see what I can stir up because it's funny.

I'm pretty sure that's the definition of trolling on the internet.

Sorry about your family. The point I was getting at is fascism isn't the only atrocious genocide ridden political system, and you might have a problem with it but it's a slippery slope once you start universally condemning everything you hate based on what's popular right now.

First off, your obviously not sorry if you're willing to advocate for the system of government that led to their deaths. And would try to kill me if they had the power to do so.

Secondly, the slippery slope argument is a fallacy. Back in April we passed offensive Liberations against KREICH and Nazi Europa. And people like you came here and wined about the "slippery slope." And you know what? Nothing happened. The success of passing offensive Liberations aginst KREICH and Nazi Europa did not lead to other, non-fascist, regions being targeted.
Again, this is because the slippery slope argument is a fallacy. If the WA wants to do something? They'll do it, regardless of the state of the "slope." In this case? The WA wanted to punish fascist regions and that's what it did.
It didn't start targeting other groups because that was never the intent. It didn't happen in April and it won't happen now.

condemning everything you hate based on what's popular right now.

I'm focusing on this part because I feel it's a point I need to hammer.
You really don't understand why fascism is hated? Why many, many people REALLY don't like it? You can flippantly say "I'm sorry about your family" to me all day long, but try to not be a troll for a moment.
Why would any decent person support an ideology that marched them off to death camps on account of their ethnicity? You don't need to be related to them like I am to objectively understand that's a horrible fucking ideology.

[Lamoni]

I'm not an apologist, I just like propping up unpopular opinions to see what I can stir up because it's funny.

Vrolondia, try *NOT* doing that in the future, unless you want your stay here to be a short one.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Full support, obviously.

[Caracasus]

Why exactly do you propose we help a region of fascists here?

Because taking a stance against fascism makes you as bad as fascists, whereas actively helping them makes you the good guy - obviously.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Why exactly do you propose we help a region of fascists here?

Because it is not the SC's duty to decide which regions stand and which fall.

[Prydania]

Why exactly do you propose we help a region of fascists here?

Because it is not the SC's duty to decide which regions stand and which fall.

The SC is whatever the SC members want it to be. Stop projecting.

[Forestavia]

Because it is not the SC's duty to decide which regions stand and which fall.

The SC is whatever the SC members want it to be. Stop projecting.

He's not "projecting". He's standing up for his opinion, like we all are! And I agree with Greater Vakolicci Haven. It's not our job to be offensive. The Security Council should try to be more objective and neutral.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Because it is not the SC's duty to decide which regions stand and which fall.

The SC is whatever the SC members want it to be. Stop projecting.

No. The SC is what the major delegates want it to be.

[Xoriet]

He's not "projecting". He's standing up for his opinion, like we all are! And I agree with Greater Vakolicci Haven. It's not our job to be offensive. The Security Council should try to be more objective and neutral.

SC description: "Spreading interregional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary."

Consider this force.

[RiderSyl]

He's not "projecting". He's standing up for his opinion, like we all are! And I agree with Greater Vakolicci Haven. It's not our job to be offensive. The Security Council should try to be more objective and neutral.

SC description: "Spreading interregional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary."

Consider this force.

Exactly!

[Forestavia]

It's designed to help abused regions, not help the abusers.

On the contrary, it is designed to strip an executive WA delegate of the ability to password-lock a region. Nothing more, nothing less. That's all it was designed for.

Anything beyond that is purely the political workings of the World Assembly playerbase, whether to wield it as a shield to protect or as a sword to attack.

*Rubs hands together*
I have a but a humble question for the administrator:

Let's assume Confederation of Corrupt Dictators remains liberated. Let's assume that the founder, Jocospor CTE. Let's also assume that Jocospor dies off leaving the CCD without a password. So now CCD is founderless, liberated, and passwordless.

Now, hypothetically, let's say that Prydania and Lord Dominator successfully lead an army to invade and conquer the region. Prydania takes the Delegacy and is the executive WA delegate of CCD. Being the delegate, Prydania understands that he is unable to password the region and so uses every bit of influence to purge the region of natives. But he has an idea (that perhaps has never been tried before). Prydania appoints Lord Dominator (who let's assume has so much influence by this point that she doesn't know what to do with it) as a Border Control Officer.

Question: Assuming all of the above, does Lord Dominator have the power to password CCD?

[Forestavia]

He's not "projecting". He's standing up for his opinion, like we all are! And I agree with Greater Vakolicci Haven. It's not our job to be offensive. The Security Council should try to be more objective and neutral.

SC description: "Spreading interregional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary."

Consider this force.

The major qualifier is "if necessary". It is not necessary to liberate a region from itself against its will.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

On the contrary, it is designed to strip an executive WA delegate of the ability to password-lock a region. Nothing more, nothing less. That's all it was designed for.

Anything beyond that is purely the political workings of the World Assembly playerbase, whether to wield it as a shield to protect or as a sword to attack.

*Rubs hands together*
I have a but a humble question for the administrator:

Let's assume Confederation of Corrupt Dictators remains liberated. Let's assume that the founder, Jocospor CTE. Let's also assume that Jocospor dies off leaving the CCD without a password. So now CCD is founderless, liberated, and passwordless.

Now, hypothetically, let's say that Prydania and Lord Dominator successfully lead an army to invade and conquer the region. Prydania takes the Delegacy and is the executive WA delegate of CCD. Being the delegate, Prydania understands that he is unable to password the region and so uses every bit of influence to purge the region of natives. But he has an idea (that perhaps has never been tried before). Prydania appoints Lord Dominator (who let's assume has so much influence by this point that she doesn't know what to do with it) as a Border Control Officer.

Question: Assuming all of the above, does Lord Dominator have the power to password CCD?

I think that it affects officers as well? Which is wrong, it should only affect officers appointed by delegates, not founders.

[Joushiki Nante Iranai]

SC description: "Spreading interregional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary."

Consider this force.

Exactly!

Just asking, what would you consider to be 'Interregional goodwill'?

[Malsti]

SC description: "Spreading interregional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary."

Consider this force.

The major qualifier is "if necessary". It is not necessary to liberate a region from itself against its will.

It is my opinion that knocking down fascist treehouses is necessary for interregional peace and goodwill. It appears that a good 2/3rds agree with me on that.

[Forestavia]

The major qualifier is "if necessary". It is not necessary to liberate a region from itself against its will.

It is my opinion that knocking down fascist treehouses is necessary for interregional peace and goodwill. It appears that a good 2/3rds agree with me on that.

It's not a treehouse. It's sovereign CCD soil. That region belongs to those nations. It is their home. And they have a right to be there.

Now, if CCD decides to raid regions in the name of expanding their corrupt, dictatorial, fascist influence then that would be a tree house and we have a responsibility to respond to that. If they move, the Security Council should move. If they stay, we stay. Same idea when I voted for the Liberation of Boston. KAISERREICH was involved in that and we needed to respond to stop the threat to keep them in their place. Our goal should be containment, not eradication.

[RiderSyl]

Exactly!

Just asking, what would you consider to be 'Interregional goodwill'?

I've got a broad definition, but fashbashing falls under the "interregional peace" part of it, so it's unrelated.

[Prydania]

On the contrary, it is designed to strip an executive WA delegate of the ability to password-lock a region. Nothing more, nothing less. That's all it was designed for.

Anything beyond that is purely the political workings of the World Assembly playerbase, whether to wield it as a shield to protect or as a sword to attack.

*Rubs hands together*
I have a but a humble question for the administrator:

Let's assume Confederation of Corrupt Dictators remains liberated. Let's assume that the founder, Jocospor CTE. Let's also assume that Jocospor dies off leaving the CCD without a password. So now CCD is founderless, liberated, and passwordless.

Now, hypothetically, let's say that Prydania and Lord Dominator successfully lead an army to invade and conquer the region. Prydania takes the Delegacy and is the executive WA delegate of CCD. Being the delegate, Prydania understands that he is unable to password the region and so uses every bit of influence to purge the region of natives. But he has an idea (that perhaps has never been tried before). Prydania appoints Lord Dominator (who let's assume has so much influence by this point that she doesn't know what to do with it) as a Border Control Officer.

Question: Assuming all of the above, does Lord Dominator have the power to password CCD?

This is an absurd line of questioning.
You assume that I, if I’m installed as Delegate of the CCD, would purge the region as my first act. When anyone who knows me will tell you my first act would be to change the flag (I would have had multiple options made up in the lead-up to the operation) and my second act would be to declare Tuesdays Taco Tuesdays in line with the Gay Agenda(tm).
My third act would be to make an address on the RMB that used a lot of Hebrew and Yiddish terms just to rub salt in the wounds of fascists and other assorted wanna-be edgelords.

After that I’d probably go back to doing the main thing I actually enjoy doing in NS, RPing in TNP’s forum-based RP.
This would leave LD free to rule the CCD as they saw fit, as I would have stopped caring by that point

I’m just saying. Make your hypotheticals realistic XD

[North Saitama]

Obviously, you fail to understand that I still don't care about the ideology in question in regard to the discussion. Hammering me with "Fascism is bad" isn't going to change my mind that individual liberty is good, and interventionism is bad.

You're fallen into "the you don't agree with me? You must not understand my argument."
No, I understand it just fine. I find it naive, empty, short-sighted, arrogant, and overall lacking.

People can be wackos all they want; as long as they don't commit a crime, they shouldn't be punished for their opinion. Even if people commit actions in the name of such an ideology, you are moving on to guilt by association to justify criminalising the followers of said ideology, instead of merely punishing the criminals themselves for their individual actions.

My point is that people like you have played the "I don't agree with fascists, but I'll defend their right to be fascists" game for a while now.
And what we have seen is that abstract fascist thought leads to real world hurt and death at the hands of fascists. It is a sign that your way, which I was once a subscriber to, is lacking and needs to be re-evaluated.

If you want to stop Fascism, you don't need to stamp their faces out with jackboots. Use your own words, and your own individual liberties to convince others that Fascism is bad. Within NS, defend regions from Fascist raiders.

History has proven that fascism is best confronted with direct action.

"Use your words"? You act as if a political philosophy that hinges on racial supremacy and genocidal politics is just as valid as one that holds that maybe the rich should pay a bit more in taxes, or one that says maybe they should be pay a bit less.

If you feel I'm "strawmanning" you as a fascist, that's why. Your milktoast "just debate fascists, why are you trying to shut them down?" ideology normalizes it. It pulls fascism into the same space as conservatism, liberalism, democratic socialism, etc...
Essentially? Your attitude says "this political ideology that calls for oppression and genocide is totes ok and deserves to be counted alongside all of the ideologies that call for a free and open society."

Again, it's naive at best and dog whistle apologism at worst.

and punishing a group of fascists because of what you assume a fascist is. Hur dur Hitlers bad, fascist bad, supress all fascists huuuur.

I'm well aware of what fascism is. I've spoken to its victims first-hand. And yeah. Fascism is bad. And Hitler was bad. How are these controversial opinions to you?

Apparently you don’t, though, as you still keep trying to make ideological arguments, when I still don’t care about ideology in this context. You could substitute ANY ideology for Fascism and my position would be no different. You could advocate for the complete extermination and extinction of the human race and it wouldn’t change anything, as long as you don’t cross the action line. Continuing to try ideological arguments is going to continue to not work.

No, I am advocating not restricting what you are allowed to think. I say that you don’t understand because what they think is irrelevant. You claim it legitimises Fascism, when my case is that all viewpoints should not be restricted, even the abhorrent ones. By restricting viewpoints, you legitimise restricting unpopular opinions, instead of saying “under no circumstances is this okay”.

And there you go again making baseless claims that I am a Face-ist. Tell me, are the ACLU also Fascist? They have defended neo-Nazis from restrictions on freedom of expression. Fascism isn’t even relevant to my case; my case is that NO ideas should be restricted with force.

And, to be honest, the concept of the “dog whistle” is, at best, a legitimised strawman, by trying to read intent into a case.

[Caracasus]

It is my opinion that knocking down fascist treehouses is necessary for interregional peace and goodwill. It appears that a good 2/3rds agree with me on that.

It's not a treehouse. It's sovereign CCD soil. That region belongs to those nations. It is their home. And they have a right to be there.

Now, if CCD decides to raid regions in the name of expanding their corrupt, dictatorial, fascist influence then that would be a tree house and we have a responsibility to respond to that. If they move, the Security Council should move. If they stay, we stay. Same idea when I voted for the Liberation of Boston. KAISERREICH was involved in that and we needed to respond to stop the threat to keep them in their place. Our goal should be containment, not eradication.

Containment on online forums doesn't work. Eradication does.