[DISCUSSION] Dealing with Fascist/Nazi Regions

[United Massachusetts]

Recently, the liberation of KAISERREICH and Nazi Europa have both been passed as alternatives to condemnations, thanks to the innovation of Lenlyvit. Now, though I opposed the former (which I might be mildly supportive of now) and supported the latter, such is not the point. Fundamentally, the questions we as a community ought to ask ourselves are as follows:

1. Do these sorts of offensive liberations of foundered regions actually help stop the spread of fascism, or does it merely provide said fascists with free publicity?
2. If we agree that they are good ways to combat fascist regions, which ones should be liberated? How do we define a fascist region?
3. Are fascists the only political group we should target with these sorts of liberations? Though certainly they should be given priority for liberations, is there room for liberating other ideologies? Patriarchs/sexists? Stalinists?
4. Are we concerned about falling down a slippery slope with these? Such was my initial concern with liberate KR.

Frankly, I say we run down the list of what we consider to be fascist/Nazi regions with over 50 members, and liberate them, if we agree that these liberations are in fact helpful. That would be the following regions, on brief glance:

• Union of the Axis Powers
• Farkasfalka
• The Coalition of Fascist Nations
• The Iron Fortress

What are your thoughts? Would you be supportive of such an effort? If not, is there anything we can do? I've considered running a telegram campaign by which nations who move into a Nazi region receive a warning telegram from us. I'm not sure how that would work yet, with the API and whatnot. I'll post more details in GP tomorrow.

PERSONAL DISCLAIMER
Now, I understand many of you won't trust me, given my violent anti-TRF stance and defense of KR in the past. I stand by the former point--I still don't like TRF. As for the latter, I'm not sure. On the one hand, the vast majority of the region is moderate-right. On the other hand, it has given Nazis a home, and the Discord chat is highly concerning. Having said that, I don't want this to devolve into a rehash of the KR debates.

I will say, though--I've been thinking about the issue more, and I seem to have forgotten just how many kids play NS. And I've forgotten that some of them have probably fallen victim to Nazi indoctrination on Discord. That's terrifying, and a reality that I haven't really considered until now.

[Cute Puppies]

1. Do these sorts of offensive liberations of foundered regions actually help stop the spread of fascism, or does it merely provide said fascists with free publicity?

Unless stooping down to the level of raiders and making founderless, fascist regions vulnerable to outside attacks is considered "beneficial," it is of no help at all. Fascist regions with active founders will remain unchanged after a liberation for the most part. It will only provide these fascist regions with free advertising and an even more infamous reputation.

2. If we agree that they are good ways to combat fascist regions, which ones should be liberated? How do we define a fascist region?

I disagree. We should not liberate fascist regions on the grounds of their ideology (unless you're like La Navasse and think that shiny "SC Resolution Author badges are justification for liberations). "Neoliberations" are a mockery to the SC.

3. Are fascists the only political group we should target with these sorts of liberations? Though certainly they should be given priority for liberations, is there room for liberating other ideologies? Patriarchs/sexists? Stalinists?

We should not liberate regions on the grounds of their ideology. What you're thinking of is a condemnation.

4. Are we concerned about falling down a slippery slope with these? Such was my initial concern with liberate KR.

Yes.

[Bedetopia]

1. Free publicity. It only results in the founder becoming extra careful.
2. It's not a good way to fight them. No region should be liberated on the basis of ideology. Definitions can be twisted if enough people are willing to.
3. No political group should be targeted for following a particular ideology.
4. We should be concerned.

By the way, expect Farkaskalka to be totally harmless since it's where TIO merged.

[Codd]

This is total hypocrisy, some of you say that they shouldn't be liberated simply on the grounds of them following an ideology that you don't like. I dare say that this is a way that the World Assembly is trying to suppress fascism. While I am not a fascist, I still believe that these regions have a right to believe in their chosen ideology and that leaving them to be invaded by those who would suppress them is the opposite of what the World Assembly is supposed to stand for.

[Caelapes]

I dare say that this is a way that the World Assembly is trying to suppress fascism.

good

[AnPrimistan and Vargsland]

Or you could target regions based on action rather than ideology. Evil man Hitler gassed Jews just because they believed something different from him and not because of their actions.

[Thils]

[b]We should not liberate regions on the grounds of their ideology. What you're thinking of is a condemnation

I agree with this entirely.

[Coronational Chechyans and affiliates]

Edited for clarification see below

[Caelapes]

Its a very slippery slope.

it actually isn't, confederate flag-bearing nation who has a suspicious anxiety about nazi-bashing while residing in a region you've founded called "TheKKK" with the Nazi "14 words" as the WFE

[Coronational Chechyans and affiliates]

Its a very slippery slope.

it actually isn't, confederate flag-bearing nation who has a suspicious anxiety about nazi-bashing while residing in a region you've founded called "TheKKK" with the Nazi "14 words" as the WFE

ive done this to see how long it takes for the scope to expand past nazis to American offensive symbols. Apparently one post.

[Caelapes]

wow it relly makes u think.. if it onley takes one post for someone to accuse someone who throws around nazi symbolism of being a nazi... how are any of us truely safe.....

[AnPrimistan and Vargsland]

wow it relly makes u think.. if it onley takes one post for someone to accuse someone who throws around nazi symbolism of being a nazi... how are any of us truely safe.....

How dare somebody practice freedom of expression!

[Caelapes]

wow it relly makes u think.. if it onley takes one post for someone to accuse someone who throws around nazi symbolism of being a nazi... how are any of us truely safe.....

How dare somebody practice freedom of expression!

you really gotta make it harder than poppin in here from the /pol/ region which features a nazi swastika sun in its flag

[Coronational Chechyans and affiliates]

wow it relly makes u think.. if it onley takes one post for someone to accuse someone who throws around nazi symbolism of being a nazi... how are any of us truely safe.....

How dare somebody practice freedom of expression!

Nope no free expression here. I expressed a differing opinion and sarcastically made an example of the slippery slope argument. Instead of addressing it some people on here jsut throw insults and cry to the mods.

[North Saitama]

I am horrified of the implications of liberating based on ideology. An example I have given is the difference between shunning a neo-Nazi, and punching them, in regard to freedom of expression. Then there is the fact that it is punishing an ideology, but not another, in a way that is unjust (by the same measure, should we also liberate Communist regions? Or Monarchist regions, for that matter?).

Personally, I think that liberations should be saved for two purposes: 1. To liberate regions occupied by raiders, and 2. To punish actual action, such as raiding. While we should have other actions (an idea I have is having sanctions, which can either be timed or indefinite, such as blocking members of a sanctioned region from voting and/or debating in the WA), punishing ideologies just carries a problem of punishing other views based on nothing more than subjective criteria.

[Fauxia]

1. You betcha, same way raiders get publicity from condemnations. If you want to liberate it, make it founderless. Pre-emptive liberations are too many question marks and too mcuh publicity for a small chance we’ll get a nazi region from it faster.
2. Fascist region- region that identifies as such, has very strong influences from other fascist regions, or supports intolerant policies associated with fascism
3. I mean... Kind of? Not sure it would get support. I might support liberation of other radically authoritarian ideologies such as non-revisionist communism
4. Yes.

[West Leas Oros]

wow it relly makes u think.. if it onley takes one post for someone to accuse someone who throws around nazi symbolism of being a nazi... how are any of us truely safe.....

How dare somebody practice freedom of expression!

Freedom of expression is a good way to get sent to gulag. Isn’t that right TRF?

[Caelapes]

The Rejected Realms is NationStates’s gulag and I am only too happy to fill it with fash.

[Bedetopia]

The Rejected Realms is NationStates’s gulag and I am only too happy to fill it with fash.

You don't seem to care how TRR natives feel about this.

[Syberis]

How dare somebody practice freedom of expression!

Nope no free expression here. I expressed a differing opinion and sarcastically made an example of the slippery slope argument. Instead of addressing it some people on here jsut throw insults and cry to the mods.

Slipperly slope fallacy*

It's only an argument if it actually debates what's going on. "Oh, A can lead to B can lead to C" isn't an argument. It's generally better form to debate A, then B when it is discussed, and then C when it is discussed. Anything can be corrupted, anything can be taken too far. You aren't arguing that we shouldn't work against Fascist and Nazi regions, but instead your offense is that future ideologies will be attacked. So, either you're looking to defend Nazis without defending them, or your argument is fearmongering and nonsensical.

[West Leas Oros]

The Rejected Realms is NationStates’s gulag and I am only too happy to fill it with fash.

You don't seem to care how TRR natives feel about this.

I don’t think he cares about how anyone feels about this. As far as he cares, anyone who isn’t an ultratankie Stalinist or a edgy ancom is a fascist.

[Caelapes]

The Rejected Realms is NationStates’s gulag and I am only too happy to fill it with fash.

You don't seem to care how TRR natives feel about this.

They are the ones who have chosen to reside in the only region in this game that cannot expel members.

You don't seem to care how TRR natives feel about this.

I don’t think he cares about how anyone feels about this. As far as he cares, anyone who isn’t an ultratankie Stalinist or a edgy ancom is a fascist.

Not true, but thanks for trying.

[West Leas Oros]

You don't seem to care how TRR natives feel about this.

They are the ones who have chosen to reside in the only region in this game that cannot expel members.

I don’t think he cares about how anyone feels about this. As far as he cares, anyone who isn’t an ultratankie Stalinist or a edgy ancom is a fascist.

Not true, but thanks for trying.

Well you do misapply and abuse fascism as a insult and justification for invasion.

[Caelapes]

They are the ones who have chosen to reside in the only region in this game that cannot expel members.

Not true, but thanks for trying.

Well you do misapply and abuse fascism as a insult and justification for invasion.

No, I don't.

[West Leas Oros]

Well you do misapply and abuse fascism as a insult and justification for invasion.

No, I don't.

Yes you do. TRF pretends to be liberators, but they’re just imperialists in disguise.