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[SUBMITTED] Repeal “Commend Evil Wolf”

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Mallorea and Riva
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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:29 pm

Not sure about the "private servers" line as far as R4 is concerned, this isn't a ruling and I won't be making rulings here since it's my resolution being discussed. I know forum is fine, don't know how servers would fly.
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Postby Cossack Khanate » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:32 pm

I am FOR, and I strongly support a native delegate for any region. Plus, he is an anti-fascist, so…..
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Mallorea and Riva
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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:33 pm

Cossack Khanate wrote:I am FOR, and I strongly support a native delegate for any region. Plus, he is an anti-fascist, so…..

Good to know the fascists support the repeal :p Cheap political points ahoy.
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Ransium
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Postby Ransium » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:56 pm

Mallorea and Riva wrote:Not sure about the "private servers" line as far as R4 is concerned, this isn't a ruling and I won't be making rulings here since it's my resolution being discussed. I know forum is fine, don't know how servers would fly.


I don’t see how private servers is legal. Unless you can find a way to use the term in a way that could also mean personal servants.

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Fauxia
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Fauxia » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:09 pm

Lenlyvit wrote:
Fauxia wrote:I get that this is a controversial repeal and people would like to argue about it. Nothing wrong with that, argue whatever you want. However, any suggestions on how to improve this? I don't think it's ready yet but I don't know where to go with it.

Maybe add a clause about LWU itself being condemned? I think its pretty well written right now Fauxia :)

I did originally. Will add.

Ransium wrote:
Mallorea and Riva wrote:Not sure about the "private servers" line as far as R4 is concerned, this isn't a ruling and I won't be making rulings here since it's my resolution being discussed. I know forum is fine, don't know how servers would fly.


I don’t see how private servers is legal. Unless you can find a way to use the term in a way that could also mean personal servants.

Okay, will likely change to forums. Although it's a bit misleading, it really doesn't change the point, and it is technically true :p
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Mount Seymour
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Postby Mount Seymour » Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:56 pm

Fauxia wrote:
Ransium wrote:
I don’t see how private servers is legal. Unless you can find a way to use the term in a way that could also mean personal servants.

Okay, will likely change to forums. Although it's a bit misleading, it really doesn't change the point, and it is technically true :p

How about "lines of communication"? Accurate, and nations can have lines of communication too :P

Some rephrasing/edits:

Fauxia wrote:The Security Council,

Acknowledging Evil Wolf for its service to various feeder and sinker regions, as well as its aid in anti-fascist military operations,

Conceding the positive effects of said actions of Evil Wolf to the world community,

Aware, however, that Evil Wolf has a history of actions that have caused serious strife in various regions and the world at-large,

Recalling that Evil Wolf is the Founder of the infamous region Lone Wolves United (LWU), an invader organization widely known for coups of Feeder and Sinker regions as well as standard raiding, which was condemned by this body in SC Resolution #74,

Appalled that despite SC#169 having commended Evil Wolf for actions as Delegate of Lazarus, their more recent developments in Lazarus negate those actions, including,

  • On July 24, 2017, Evil Wolf (as Killer Kitty), with help from Scum (an associate of the Khan of Lone Wolves United, Lamb Stone) and Funkadelia (also a member of Lone Wolves United, via their subsidiary Funkadelia Island), used flimsy evidence derived from private lines of communication to accuse many natives of the region of treason, subsequently banning many of them from the region without trial,
  • Shortly following the coup, Evil Wolf, Funkadelia, and Lamb Stone put a new Constitution in place, eliminating democracy for Delegate elections and replacing it with a Dictatorship that placed far more power into their hands, and,
  • When the trio was still unsatisfied with its power, on March 13, 2018, following the "resignation" of Funkadelia, Lazarus was made into a "Khanate" flying the flag of Lone Wolves United, with Lamb Stone (now via the nation Aleister) as Delegate and "Khan" (the same term for Lamb Stone's role as the Leader of Lone Wolves United). Evil Wolf played a key part in this, arguing strongly in defense of these moves on forums, while being made a "General", alongside other members of LWU such as Funkadelia (now as Delescluze) and Tom (as the nation Chef Big Dog). The continued changes in the region included a revamp of the World Factbook Entry declaring that "the Dictatorship of the Raider" had begun.

Noting the detrimental effects of this new, Lone Wolves United-influenced regime which Evil Wolf has helped to push on Lazarus, including the end of the Lazarene Celestial Armada, which has caused a severe lack of military presence for Lazarus,

Pointing out the similarities between the situation currently in Lazarus and that described in Security Council #176, in which the commendation of A mean old man was repealed for assistance in the execution of a coup against Lazarus (a coup that, ironically, Evil Wolf argued strongly against),

Believing that, while Evil Wolf has performed laudable actions, its mixed and more recently troubling record does not meet the standards of a nation commended by this august body,

Hereby repeals Security Council Resolution #169.
Last edited by Mount Seymour on Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Fauxia
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Postby Fauxia » Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:56 pm

Goodness, Somy, I add all that I'll have to make you co-author ;)
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Lenlyvit
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Postby Lenlyvit » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:55 am

Fauxia wrote:Goodness, Somy, I add all that I'll have to make you co-author ;)

Don't forget the 5,000 character limit.
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Fauxia
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Postby Fauxia » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:08 am

Lenlyvit wrote:
Fauxia wrote:Goodness, Somy, I add all that I'll have to make you co-author ;)

Don't forget the 5,000 character limit.

I’m not even at 3,000 yet. Plenty of room
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Lenlyvit
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Postby Lenlyvit » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:18 am

Fauxia wrote:
Lenlyvit wrote:Don't forget the 5,000 character limit.

I’m not even at 3,000 yet. Plenty of room

That's good! :)
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Killer Kitty
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Postby Killer Kitty » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:14 am

Mount Seymour wrote: used flimsy evidence derived from private lines of communication to accuse many natives of the region of treason, subsequently banning many of them from the region without trial,


Blatantly false. Those accused of participating in the July Conspiracy were given a trial, of which most were successfully convicted with a few found innocent of charges.

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The House of Petain
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Postby The House of Petain » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:29 am

FOR

Once more the SC should not be playing favorites and should not be in the business of condemning/commending. This never should have been passed in the first place.
Last edited by The House of Petain on Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Fauxia
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Postby Fauxia » Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:48 am

Better switch this up to include EW as Delegate now
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Fauxia
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Postby Fauxia » Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:52 am

Killer Kitty wrote:
Mount Seymour wrote: used flimsy evidence derived from private lines of communication to accuse many natives of the region of treason, subsequently banning many of them from the region without trial,


Blatantly false. Those accused of participating in the July Conspiracy were given a trial, of which most were successfully convicted with a few found innocent of charges.

With a biased judge...
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Fratt
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Postby Fratt » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:31 am

Killer Kitty wrote:
Mount Seymour wrote: used flimsy evidence derived from private lines of communication to accuse many natives of the region of treason, subsequently banning many of them from the region without trial,


Blatantly false. Those accused of participating in the July Conspiracy were given a trial, of which most were successfully convicted with a few found innocent of charges.


The crime they were convicted for ('subversive activity') did not even exist in Lazarene law in July, when the bans occurred, and an important part of the evidence used referred to conduct that happened after the bans (ie, to resist what arguably was an illegal action).

There was no trial for the original charges ('treason, high treason, fraud, conspiracy').
The evidence used to file the original charges (which formed the pretext to expel over half of the regional government's members and start a major constitutional and legal renovation of the region) was taken out of context, and there was no adequate and impartial assessment as to whether Funkadelia's actions in July were legal.

And yes, as Fauxia said the judge(s) who accepted the charges and performed the trial were biased and should've been disqualified, as they had a personal interest in the outcome.
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The Church of Satan
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Postby The Church of Satan » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:59 am

In addition to the flimsy evidence part, none of the accused were allowed to speak at the trial in their own defense (or at all for that matter) like Lazarene law at the time of the trial said we were allowed. So the trial itself was illegal. Thus it is accurate to say that we were banned without trial.
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Lenlyvit
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Postby Lenlyvit » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:06 am

The Church of Satan wrote:In addition to the flimsy evidence part, none of the accused were allowed to speak at the trial in their own defense (or at all for that matter) like Lazarene law at the time of the trial said we were allowed. So the trial itself was illegal. Thus it is accurate to say that we were banned without trial.

^this. We weren't allowed to defend ourselves at all.
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Wrapper
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Postby Wrapper » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:13 am

Perhaps referring to it as a "show trial" or "sham trial" (or, so help me, "kangaroo court"), or using wording such as "without a fair and just trial", would be more accurate than "without trial".

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Killer Kitty
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Postby Killer Kitty » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:52 am

Fratt wrote:The crime they were convicted for ('subversive activity') did not even exist in Lazarene law in July, when the bans occurred


Correct. The July Conspiracy occurred under the CU government. The trial and convictions for Subversive Activity occurred under the Undead Dominion government. This is why there were South Pacific Special Forces troopers, who never took part in the July Conspiracy, tried and convicted, because afterwards they attempted to invade the region under orders from their commanders.

Fratt wrote:There was no trial for the original charges ('treason, high treason, fraud, conspiracy').


Nope. There was a trial for the original charges, it just never concluded due to the CU government dissolving and the lack of a full three Judge panel needed to legally render a verdict, due to one of the three elected Judges being a member of the July Conspiracy. The CU Court system was hopelessly broken.

Fratt wrote:The evidence used to file the original charges (which formed the pretext to expel over half of the regional government's members and start a major constitutional and legal renovation of the region) was taken out of context


No. The initial evidence used to start the trial under the CU had one, and only one, screen shot taken out of context. The evidence we had was more than enough proof to at least start a trial. The later evidence that we managed to gathered in was absolutely enough to get a conviction in any functional GCRs court system, and had the CU's court not been completely inoperable, I know the conspirators would have been convicted of violating CU laws, just as they were convicted of violating Dominion laws.

Fratt wrote:there was no adequate and impartial assessment as to whether Funkadelia's actions in July were legal.


Again, the CU Courts were broken. Such an assessment was/is impossible. The "Exile" CU later attempted to put Funk on trial using CU laws and totally failed to get a conviction, and they were the guys claiming Funk's actions were illegal in the first place. That might not be an "impartial assessment" but it's pretty damning when the guys who accuse Funk of breaking the law put on their own show trial, staffed with their own hand picked Judges, with no defense for the accused, and failed to convict him.

Fratt wrote:And yes, as Fauxia said the judge(s) who accepted the charges and performed the trial were biased and should've been disqualified, as they had a personal interest in the outcome.


That's a matter of opinion, since I am sure the Conspirators would argue that any trial against them headed by any Judge would illegal because [reasons].

Lenlyvit wrote:We weren't allowed to defend ourselves at all.


You absolutely were and the majority of you chose to whine about "injustice" or scream that the Court was illegal or that you didn't recognize the Court. I don't recall anyone even attempting to counter any of the evidence presented.

Hardly a good defense, in my opinion. Maybe good for political showboating, but nothing else.

The Church of Satan wrote:So the trial itself was illegal. Thus it is accurate to say that we were banned without trial.


Look, CoS proving my above point.
Last edited by Killer Kitty on Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:08 am, edited 7 times in total.

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The Church of Satan
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Postby The Church of Satan » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:23 am

Our posting privileges were removed when we were remasked as "accused" so no we were not able to speak at our trial.
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Killer Kitty
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Postby Killer Kitty » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:31 am

The Church of Satan wrote:Our posting privileges were removed when we were remasked as "accused" so no we were not able to speak at our trial.


Irrelevant to the Dominion Courts or the trial at which you were convicted of charges. The CU trial was never concluded because of the transition to the new government and due to the lack of the required three judge panel. You were masked as such to prevent you and your group from flaming the forums, something I do recall warning a number of people for. Had we kept with the CU government and elected a third Prelate (judge) then you would have been masked in such a manner to comment on the trial.

Edit: I looked at the masking, you were allowed to comment in the Trial during the UDL government. Several people masked as such did.

Double Edit: Including Church of Satan
Last edited by Killer Kitty on Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:35 am, edited 2 times in total.

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The Church of Satan
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Postby The Church of Satan » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:32 pm

Killer Kitty wrote:
The Church of Satan wrote:Our posting privileges were removed when we were remasked as "accused" so no we were not able to speak at our trial.


Irrelevant to the Dominion Courts or the trial at which you were convicted of charges. The CU trial was never concluded because of the transition to the new government and due to the lack of the required three judge panel. You were masked as such to prevent you and your group from flaming the forums, something I do recall warning a number of people for. Had we kept with the CU government and elected a third Prelate (judge) then you would have been masked in such a manner to comment on the trial.

Edit: I looked at the masking, you were allowed to comment in the Trial during the UDL government. Several people masked as such did.

Double Edit: Including Church of Satan

Speaking at that trial in any capacity that doesn't involve a protest would have been condoning the illegitimate government. >_>
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Fauxia
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Postby Fauxia » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:44 pm

I’ll see if I can make appropriate edits today. I’ll be away for the rest of the week though
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Killer Kitty
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Postby Killer Kitty » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:25 pm

The Church of Satan wrote:Speaking at that trial in any capacity that doesn't involve a protest would have been condoning the illegitimate government. >_>


Your reasoning and claims have changed so much in just the span of this thread that it's very hard to take anything you say seriously.

Your claims seems to morph the second you're called out on a lie, or your argument isn't working, or your logic falls flat. This is a trademark characteristic of most of the participants of the July Conspiracy. Whenever they thought the law supported them, they'd claim legality. Whenever they got caught doing something illegal, they'd claim that the law doesn't matter, morality does.

Your side constantly backtracks and flip flops on the drop of a hat in order to appear justifiable. Sadly, this mostly fails to appeal to anyone who isn't already politically bias.

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The Church of Satan
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Postby The Church of Satan » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:45 pm

Killer Kitty wrote:Your reasoning and claims have changed so much in just the span of this thread that it's very hard to take anything you say seriously.

Your claims seems to morph the second you're called out on a lie, or your argument isn't working, or your logic falls flat. This is a trademark characteristic of most of the participants of the July Conspiracy. Whenever they thought the law supported them, they'd claim legality. Whenever they got caught doing something illegal, they'd claim that the law doesn't matter, morality does.

Your side constantly backtracks and flip flops on the drop of a hat in order to appear justifiable. Sadly, this mostly fails to appeal to anyone who isn't already politically bias.

Except that while I wasn't able to post on the legitimate government's forum to defend myself at trial your so-called "government" couldn't legally charge me for anything since it (and every government after it) lacks all legal authority. So it's only natural that I not speak at a trial that lacks legal authority. Only one perspective could perceive these facts as a lie and that is the perspective of your illegitimate government.

You couldn't care about justifying your actions anyways. You only see Lazarus as your plaything to do with as you please. This is a trademark characteristic of traitors, liars and criminals. How appropriate for you! :lol:
When you get caught doing something illegal you just overthrow the government. You've already won the war. Why bother hiding it? What's the matter? Too ashamed of what you've done? Clinging to some delusion of honor or nobility?
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