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[SUBMITTED] Repeal “Commend Evil Wolf”

A chamber dedicated to the dissemination of inter-regional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.

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Topid
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Postby Topid » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:59 pm

Mallorea and Riva wrote:Friendly reminder that the primary supporters of the repeal are the fascists since Wolf was instrumental in helping to destroy Nazi safe havens. A part of the commendation that certain parties of dubious political affiliation are choosing to ignore.
Mallorea and Riva wrote:Look at who is opposing it in this thread. You've got Nazis, TRR, TSP, TITO.

Just posting to point out Mall is pulling all of this out of, from best I can tell, this one post from two months ago. That's about only post I can figure he's referencing when he asks you to "look at who is opposing it in this thread." It is demonstrably false to say that the primary supporters of a repeal are fascists. The primary supporters of the repeal appear to be people who don't like coups. Followed waaaaaay back there by fascists or nazis. I don't think any suggestion to the contrary is in good faith.

I'm not going to suggest that the people more connected with Lazarus, or younger than myself are out of line when they push for this repeal. All those prior episodes didn't affect some of these posters as much as his most recent ones, and some of these people weren't around to know EW as anything other than the coup guy.

For me, while it is tempting when I see an argument like Mall's which is that dishonest to take the opposite side, I am still personally in the against camp on this one. EW definitely should not have done what he did in Lazarus. And if EW was going to do what he did in Lazarus, he definitely should have done a better job. :P I wasn't a fan of PRL, and now thanks to EW almost all criticisms of it are now basically dead because most of the critics out PRL-d the PRL. Not to mention, those criticisms were exhausting and never ending for month after month is this forum right up until the day he proved them all hollow. But one episode cannot define someone with a history as long as EW. It seems major now because it is the most recent episode, but there were a whole lot of seasons of this show before this one.

I just don't see how this Lazarus thing is weighty enough to matter in the overall course of EW's time on NS. I suspect I'm in the minority on that, but that's where I am.
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Mallorea and Riva
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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:54 am

Good to see you Topid :p
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Topid
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Postby Topid » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:58 am

:lol: Likewise old friend! :hug:
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Drop Your Pants
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Postby Drop Your Pants » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:26 am

Oh get a room you two.
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Mallorea and Riva
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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:30 am

Drop Your Pants wrote:Oh get a room you two.

Why don't we all go to the Winchester, have a pint, and wait for this whole thing to blow over? Eh Fauxia? What do you say? Withdraw the proposal and we pretend Topid never came back?
Ideological Bulwark #253
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Major and Field Marshal of The Black Hawks
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Jakker, Tal, and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
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Drop Your Pants
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Postby Drop Your Pants » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:44 am

Mallorea and Riva wrote:Why don't we all go to the Winchester, have a pint, and wait for this whole thing to blow over? Eh Fauxia? What do you say? Withdraw the proposal and we pretend Topid never came back?

We'll have to do it fast, before NPO notice Topids dispatch calling them fascists.
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Fauxia
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Postby Fauxia » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:55 am

Mall get one of your mod friends to go delete the Topid post.

[Report] Topid

:p
Last edited by Fauxia on Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mallorea and Riva
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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:57 am

Fauxia wrote:Mall get one of your mod friends to go delete the Topid post.

[Report] Topid

:p

I'm just a normal player in here, can't make me do nuthin' :p

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Ideological Bulwark #253
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Major and Field Marshal of The Black Hawks
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Jakker, Tal, and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
Frattastan quote of the month: "I don't think chatting with someone over the Internet about casual topics falls under faithful or unfaithful. :<"

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Topid
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Postby Topid » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:38 pm

Drop Your Pants wrote:Oh get a room you two.

You got one to spare, I've found myself quite homeless lately. :p
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Wabbitslayah
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Postby Wabbitslayah » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:40 pm

Against. I hope WALL smashes this.
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Fauxia
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Postby Fauxia » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:06 pm

Do you have a reason for this or do you just like it when people coup your region’s ally?
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Wabbitslayah
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Postby Wabbitslayah » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:17 pm

Fauxia wrote:Do you have a reason for this or do you just like it when people coup your region’s ally?

Because I just personally think it's silly when politics and morals go and repeal commends and condemns. That's just me though. If it's not a Liberation Repeal, I tend not to support any repeals unless the C&C is badly written.

I could care less of what happened to Lazarus, that's in the past, what matters is what's happening in the present. While I don't blame any dislike or mistrust at Evil Wolf for the events, get over it and move on. Isn't there a region to rebuild instead of pettiness?
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Fauxia
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Postby Fauxia » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:30 pm

Wabbitslayah wrote:
Fauxia wrote:Do you have a reason for this or do you just like it when people coup your region’s ally?

Because I just personally think it's silly when politics and morals go and repeal commends and condemns. That's just me though. If it's not a Liberation Repeal, I tend not to support any repeals unless the C&C is badly written.

I could care less of what happened to Lazarus, that's in the past, what matters is what's happening in the present. While I don't blame any dislike or mistrust at Evil Wolf for the events, get over it and move on. Isn't there a region to rebuild instead of pettiness?

Alright, that was a pretty well-reasoned answer, when I was getting angry, so thanks.

I don’t agree (obviously). I think this is saying “you can do whatever you want” once you’re commended, as long as it isn’t OOC bad. I think that’s a dangerous precedent. Especially considering EW was commended partially for behavior in Lazarus, which he more than undid.

And you should look at it from the eyes of the Lazarenes purged. Imagine if, hmm, we’ll say Wop here, because he was commended. Imagine if Wop suddenyl couped TRR and seized your Delegacy for almost a year. Would you not think that commendation should be repealed?

There’s a standard for commendations that should be upheld, and upheld both before and after.
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Mallorea and Riva
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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:34 pm

Fauxia wrote:
Wabbitslayah wrote:Because I just personally think it's silly when politics and morals go and repeal commends and condemns. That's just me though. If it's not a Liberation Repeal, I tend not to support any repeals unless the C&C is badly written.

I could care less of what happened to Lazarus, that's in the past, what matters is what's happening in the present. While I don't blame any dislike or mistrust at Evil Wolf for the events, get over it and move on. Isn't there a region to rebuild instead of pettiness?

Alright, that was a pretty well-reasoned answer, when I was getting angry, so thanks.

I don’t agree (obviously). I think this is saying “you can do whatever you want” once you’re commended, as long as it isn’t OOC bad. I think that’s a dangerous precedent. Especially considering EW was commended partially for behavior in Lazarus, which he more than undid.

And you should look at it from the eyes of the Lazarenes purged. Imagine if, hmm, we’ll say Wop here, because he was commended. Imagine if Wop suddenyl couped TRR and seized your Delegacy for almost a year. Would you not think that commendation should be repealed?

There’s a standard for commendations that should be upheld, and upheld both before and after.

Well there would be 0 people purged in your example so it doesn't really work :p
Ideological Bulwark #253
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Major and Field Marshal of The Black Hawks
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Jakker, Tal, and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
Frattastan quote of the month: "I don't think chatting with someone over the Internet about casual topics falls under faithful or unfaithful. :<"

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Fauxia
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Postby Fauxia » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:47 pm

Mallorea and Riva wrote:
Fauxia wrote:Alright, that was a pretty well-reasoned answer, when I was getting angry, so thanks.

I don’t agree (obviously). I think this is saying “you can do whatever you want” once you’re commended, as long as it isn’t OOC bad. I think that’s a dangerous precedent. Especially considering EW was commended partially for behavior in Lazarus, which he more than undid.

And you should look at it from the eyes of the Lazarenes purged. Imagine if, hmm, we’ll say Wop here, because he was commended. Imagine if Wop suddenyl couped TRR and seized your Delegacy for almost a year. Would you not think that commendation should be repealed?

There’s a standard for commendations that should be upheld, and upheld both before and after.

Well there would be 0 people purged in your example so it doesn't really work :p

Yes, but somehow Wop stays in power.

My point being: I don’t think Zao would like it much if his region was couped, or appreciate that the couper has a commendation, especially if it was for dedication to that region
Last edited by Fauxia on Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Wabbitslayah
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Postby Wabbitslayah » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:48 pm

Fauxia wrote:
Wabbitslayah wrote:Because I just personally think it's silly when politics and morals go and repeal commends and condemns. That's just me though. If it's not a Liberation Repeal, I tend not to support any repeals unless the C&C is badly written.

I could care less of what happened to Lazarus, that's in the past, what matters is what's happening in the present. While I don't blame any dislike or mistrust at Evil Wolf for the events, get over it and move on. Isn't there a region to rebuild instead of pettiness?

Alright, that was a pretty well-reasoned answer, when I was getting angry, so thanks.

I don’t agree (obviously). I think this is saying “you can do whatever you want” once you’re commended, as long as it isn’t OOC bad. I think that’s a dangerous precedent. Especially considering EW was commended partially for behavior in Lazarus, which he more than undid.

And you should look at it from the eyes of the Lazarenes purged. Imagine if, hmm, we’ll say Wop here, because he was commended. Imagine if Wop suddenyl couped TRR and seized your Delegacy for almost a year. Would you not think that commendation should be repealed?

There’s a standard for commendations that should be upheld, and upheld both before and after.


I think anyone can do whatever they want within the site rules. People have their own perceptions of right and wrong, that's fine, but it's silly to attempt to enforce any IC values onto others or because someone did not follow those values we must punish them. Evil Wolf plays the game his own way, and sometimes it's annoying and sometimes it might be wrong from some people's perspective, but he does him well. I respect that, do you?

You can write this repeal and submit it, but is it really necessary? Is Evil Wolf playing the game his way such a bad thing? Unfortunately, this game has coups, invasions, backstabbing, all sorts of things that's just how it is. It may go against OOC and IC moral compasses, but it's not objectively a right or wrong thing by the game itself. Max says if you want to be tyrannical or whatever go for it.

I think he deserves to be commended for bringing an interesting element of chaos to this game. I'd rather suggest is his commendation on point or not? Does it need to be re-written to be more accurate? Rather than, "OH HE DID A BAD THING IN GAME ACCORDING TO ME AND SOME OTHERS! LET'S GET A MOB TOGETHER AND PUNISH HIM!"
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Wabbitslayah
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Postby Wabbitslayah » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:55 pm

Fauxia wrote:
Mallorea and Riva wrote:Well there would be 0 people purged in your example so it doesn't really work :p

Yes, but somehow Wop stays in power.

My point being: I don’t think Zao would like it much if his region was couped, or appreciate that the couper has a commendation, especially if it was for dedication to that region


To the former, I wouldn't be happy yes, and would probably attempt to reverse the situation. But, I was taught it's silly to get emotionally effected by such things when Douria couped Osiris and caused a JAL/Gatesville takeover. In fact, by getting so emotional, it really caused bad stress for me irl.

That being said, I still wouldn't like it, but it's part of the game so I respect it. I wouldn't care about said coupers commend or condemn. Lots of us have done not so nice things in the game. Some have commends, some condemns, some never had any, and some had repealed. Most of these people are cool people and I respect them for being them IC. Mall, did wrote Liberate Haven. He's been a raider, what would you expect? Then the RPers came in shouted for him to be sacked as a mod or to resign and then repealed the Commend of his trophy region. Which btw, while it was Mall's trophy region he took, the commend had nothing to do with Mall, so by repealing it those RPers basically disrespected that region's past in order to fulfill a petty vendetta against Mall for being a raider. That is exactly silly as hell.

Long rants long. In a nutshell,

tl;dr I would be upset but I wouldn't care and I wouldn't care about their C&C and I wouldn't feel the need to repeal it because I'm upset at them and I think they did a bad IC thing.
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Fauxia
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Postby Fauxia » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:58 pm

The Security Council has a fairly established moral compass, it’s pro-defender, pro-stability, and anti-fascist, generally (not that there are no exceptions, but EW was commended for two of those).

My argument isn’t that EW brings nothing to the table, it’s that his recognition is much better summed up as a Condemnation. It follows SC precedent far better, and does hold commended people accountable.
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Wabbitslayah
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Postby Wabbitslayah » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:00 pm

Fauxia wrote:The Security Council has a fairly established moral compass, it’s pro-defender, pro-stability, and anti-fascist, generally (not that there are no exceptions, but EW was commended for two of those).

My argument isn’t that EW brings nothing to the table, it’s that his recognition is much better summed up as a Condemnation. It follows SC precedent far better, and does hold commended people accountable.


So moral compass includes being petty? Why do defenders or pro-defenders get to rule it?
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LiberNovusAmericae
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Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:31 pm

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Moctezuma
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Postby Moctezuma » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:00 am

I'm sorry, but should we not hold commended nations up to a higher standard? A commended nation is supposed to be a role model for the international community, not couping GCRs. Were not AMOM's and at least one others commendations repealed for the NLO Coup? Evil Wolf was commended, in part, for their dedication to the protection of the region of Lazarus during the NLO Coup. Since they couped Lazarus themselves in July 2017, why would it be perfectly fine to keep their commendation on the books yet fine to repeal the commendations of those who participated in the NLO?

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Postby RiderSyl » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:10 am

Moctezuma wrote:Were not AMOM's and at least one others commendations repealed for the NLO Coup?

Krulltopia's Commendation is the other repeal you're thinking of.
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Fauxia
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Postby Fauxia » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:49 am

Wabbitslayah wrote:
Fauxia wrote:The Security Council has a fairly established moral compass, it’s pro-defender, pro-stability, and anti-fascist, generally (not that there are no exceptions, but EW was commended for two of those).

My argument isn’t that EW brings nothing to the table, it’s that his recognition is much better summed up as a Condemnation. It follows SC precedent far better, and does hold commended people accountable.


So moral compass includes being petty? Why do defenders or pro-defenders get to rule it?

Because defending is pro-stability of founderless UCRs. It’s an extension of the pro-stability.

I still am failing to understand how it’s petty to believe in standards for already commended nations.
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Drop Your Pants
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Postby Drop Your Pants » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:27 pm

Wabbitslayah wrote:So moral compass includes being petty? Why do defenders or pro-defenders get to rule it?

You were doing quite well till you reverted to the classic defender vs raider argument. Mall already did that one, try again.
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Wabbitslayah
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Postby Wabbitslayah » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:59 pm

Drop Your Pants wrote:
Wabbitslayah wrote:So moral compass includes being petty? Why do defenders or pro-defenders get to rule it?

You were doing quite well till you reverted to the classic defender vs raider argument. Mall already did that one, try again.


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