[SUBMITTED] Repeal “Commend Evil Wolf”

[Alkasia]

Good to know the fascists support the repeal Cheap political points ahoy.

Friendly reminder that the primary supporters of the repeal are the fascists since Wolf was instrumental in helping to destroy Nazi safe havens. A part of the commendation that certain parties of dubious political affiliation are choosing to ignore.

I'm a primary supporter of the repeal. So is most likely the large majority of my region. Does that make me or my regionmates fascists?

Edit: destroying Nazi safe havens is well and good, but hardly commendable on its own when faced with a large imbalance in the negative direction. Also apparently fascists wanting a repeal for their own reasons means the rest of us can't want a repeal for our reasons as well? News to me.

[Kurnugia]

Edit: destroying Nazi safe havens is well and good, but hardly commendable on its own when faced with a large imbalance in the negative direction. Also apparently fascists wanting a repeal for their own reasons means the rest of us can't want a repeal for our reasons as well? News to me.

I dunno... destroying OOC asshats has a severe weight to it.

[Alkasia]

Edit: destroying Nazi safe havens is well and good, but hardly commendable on its own when faced with a large imbalance in the negative direction. Also apparently fascists wanting a repeal for their own reasons means the rest of us can't want a repeal for our reasons as well? News to me.

I dunno... destroying OOC asshats has a severe weight to it.

Sure, but it hardly deserves a commendation when the person being commended has done numerous other things that in my opinion, disqualify him from even being considered for one.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Friendly reminder that the primary supporters of the repeal are the fascists since Wolf was instrumental in helping to destroy Nazi safe havens. A part of the commendation that certain parties of dubious political affiliation are choosing to ignore.

That seems a tad bit of stretch I must say.

Look at who is opposing it in this thread. You've got Nazis, TRR, TSP, TITO. I don't recall if TSP helped with the anti-fascist operations that led to the fall of Nazi Europe, but TRR and TITO sure didn't.

The repeal itself doesn't really set forward any serious charges against Wolf. It's out of date as well.

Friendly reminder that the primary supporters of the repeal are the fascists since Wolf was instrumental in helping to destroy Nazi safe havens. A part of the commendation that certain parties of dubious political affiliation are choosing to ignore.

Oh yes, I’m sure there are just that many nazis.

Considering I did include a line saying that that was a good thing, don’t think so.

Anyways, that doesn’t make EW commendable, because nazis don’t like him. Or are we going to commend Brunhilde now?

"Important roles in anti-fascist" operations doesn't really give the credit where the credit is due. I'm not surprised that you didn't put the explicit details of what he did since you'd lose votes. Which is rather the point.

Friendly reminder that the primary supporters of the repeal are the fascists since Wolf was instrumental in helping to destroy Nazi safe havens. A part of the commendation that certain parties of dubious political affiliation are choosing to ignore.

Cheap political points indeed...

People are hating on Wolf because they don't like the idea of a political opponent/raider having a commendation. So they've seized on the horribly ebil vicious coup of lazarus which sent tens of thousands of players into TRR, and obliterating the most active GCR in NS. Alternatively it was more or less asleep and nothing of value was lost.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Have we really gone to the "if this is repealed, the fascists win" argument? Really?

Evil Wolf is a prolific raider who recently participated in a nearly year-long coup of a Sinker. He did not deserve commendation when this passed, and he does not deserve commendation now. Period, full stop. It has nothing to do with fascists, what they want, or why they want it, and Mall should be careful the kind of insinuations he's making about other players with his red moderator masking. A moderator should not be lumping defenders in with fascists.

[Fauxia]

That seems a tad bit of stretch I must say.

Look at who is opposing it in this thread. You've got Nazis, TRR, TSP, TITO. I don't recall if TSP helped with the anti-fascist operations that led to the fall of Nazi Europe, but TRR and TITO sure didn't.

The repeal itself doesn't really set forward any serious charges against Wolf. It's out of date as well.

Oh yes, I’m sure there are just that many nazis.

Considering I did include a line saying that that was a good thing, don’t think so.

Anyways, that doesn’t make EW commendable, because nazis don’t like him. Or are we going to commend Brunhilde now?

"Important roles in anti-fascist" operations doesn't really give the credit where the credit is due. I'm not surprised that you didn't put the explicit details of what he did since you'd lose votes. Which is rather the point.

Cheap political points indeed...

People are hating on Wolf because they don't like the idea of a political opponent/raider having a commendation. So they've seized on the horribly ebil vicious coup of lazarus which sent tens of thousands of players into TRR, and obliterating the most active GCR in NS. Alternatively it was more or less asleep and nothing of value was lost.

See Cormac’s point. Also, Lazarus at least had some activity, which the coup killed, because, surprise, surprise- purging all the active members isn’t good for activity. And that wasn’t it, then they pretty much made it an extension of LWU.

Defender, raider, I don’t really care in this case. Couping GCRs is not what a commended nation should be doing, let alone basically making it a colony of a UCR.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Have we really gone to the "if this is repealed, the fascists win" argument? Really?

Evil Wolf is a prolific raider who recently participated in a nearly year-long coup of a Sinker. He did not deserve commendation when this passed, and he does not deserve commendation now. Period, full stop. It has nothing to do with fascists, what they want, or why they want it, and Mall should be careful the kind of insinuations he's making about other players with his red moderator masking. A moderator should not be lumping defenders in with fascists.

To answer your first question, yes, because that's pretty much the only way I can see to scrape up opposition. Think of the children, rah rah rah. Wolf is a, as you say, a prolific raider and it was difficult enough to get this passed in the first place. You campaigned against it when I made a push to get it into quorum.

Regarding your second point about me being a mod. If you think I'm acting inappropriately, submit a GHR with detailed links outlining my abuse. Put your money where your mouth is, because otherwise everyone here will think you're just blustering.

Alternatively if you think I'm not abusing mod status but rather just breaking some other rule, please feel free to report me in the Moderation forum. Anyone can do that, I really don't mind. Constructive feedback of my moderation style, as well as my posting style, is always appreciated. Vague, ominous accusations of unknown misconduct... not as helpful.

[RiderSyl]

Anyways, that doesn’t make EW commendable, because nazis don’t like him. Or are we going to commend Brunhilde now?

I'd say "Shame on you" for that comment, but the fact you're willing to name-drop that player just to score points in a debate gives me the distinct feeling that you don't know what shame is.

Oh, and spare me the "it's a valid point!"s and any whataboutism that's likely to follow. It's disgusting and unnecessary to bring up Brunhilde regardless. It doesn't matter how valid the point, nor the quality of the other argument.

[Benevolent Thomas]

Don't take the bait, guys. Let him look like a fool in the Sin Bin alone.

We all know that repealing this condemnation is the right move. Just plow forward and ignore the lone dissenting opinion. He's just trying to stir up trouble and hoping to garner support for his buddy by making this a raider vs defender dynamic.

[RiderSyl]

Don't take the bait, guys. Let him look like a fool in the Sin Bin alone.

We all know that repealing this condemnation is the right move. Just plow forward and ignore the lone dissenting opinion. He's just trying to stir up trouble and hoping to garner support for his buddy by making this a raider vs defender dynamic.

*ahem* You just gonna pretend that Fauxia didn't majorly cross a line? Comparing Evil Wolf to a DOS player of that caliber and reputation is unacceptable.

I'm a defender but I'm not going to support this until he apologizes for that nonsense.

[Benevolent Thomas]

Don't take the bait, guys. Let him look like a fool in the Sin Bin alone.

We all know that repealing this condemnation is the right move. Just plow forward and ignore the lone dissenting opinion. He's just trying to stir up trouble and hoping to garner support for his buddy by making this a raider vs defender dynamic.

*ahem* You just gonna pretend that Fauxia didn't majorly cross a line? Comparing Evil Wolf to a DOS player of that caliber and reputation is unacceptable.

I'm a defender but I'm not going to support this until he apologizes for that nonsense.

Id hardly call that a comparison of people, rather a comparison of absurdities. Commending Brunhild for that anti-nazi mess, overlooking everything else they did, is absurd. Keeping EW's commendation solely because he has conducted anti-fash operations, overlooking everything else they've done, is absurd.

Do I think what those two nations have done is comparable? No. And I don't think Fauxia believes that either.

[RiderSyl]

I'm conflicted. What's more disheartening?

Someone that I once looked up to:

A: Trying to spin-doctor a horrendous comment because they share that person's interests.
B: Legitimately believing that such a horrendous comment is okay if rationalized a certain way.

[Benevolent Thomas]

Why do you keep doing this to me?

I keep sticking my neck out for you and you keep slicing my throat for the world to see? This isn't the first time you have publicly claimed to have lost faith in me. And for what? What do you gain by painting this picture of me? You're throwing away a hell of a lot more.

I guess we can't escape who we are. I'l stick to my convictions and remain loyal to my friends and you'll betray friendship in the name of pointless political gesturing.

You've lot your faith in me again? Good. Please don't try to find it once more.

---

I'm doing my best to not be thrown into the sin bin. I'm sorry for our derailment of the topic at hand.

[Fauxia]

Gonna go and clarify the Brunhilde comment because it wasn’t necessarily the best example, but BT is completely right in his reading of the comment. It was not a comparison at all. Whatever our disagreements, I have a good amount of respect for EW, I just think it far more suited for a condemnation than a commendation. And as far as I know, he’s OOCly sound at worst, in fact, I’ve heard stories he’s actually quite good. Certainly not a DOS player, and that was not the point.

However, it was a legitimate counter to what Mall said. His argument at this point is “fascists support the repeal so you can’t or else you are a fascist collaborator.” This is clearly BS, considering using that logic you would have to commend a DOS player for their anti-fascism. No comparisons were made- it was and is the logical outcome of that argument of Mall’s. One’s enemies is not the reason one should be voting for or against somebody.

It was not a comparison of anyone to anyone.

[RiderSyl]

I've been talking about a comment that the SC author made in regards to the target of his Repeal. Not sure how that's derailment.

Also, your rant about me makes no sense and is very dramatized. I have no idea what you mean by you sticking your neck out, nor what you mean by me "throwing away a hell of a lot more" either. "Slicing your throat for the world to see" is a weird way of describing criticism, "we can't escape who we are" doesn't hit home because I'm okay with who I am, and the claim that I "betray friendship in the name of pointless political gesturing" is out of this world.

This isn't the first time you have publicly claimed to have lost faith in me.

Ya, and unlike you oddly suggest later, I'm not "refinding" my faith in you every time. I'm just reiterating the fact I used to have a lot of faith in you, 'cause I hope that gives what I say a little more impact. That's it.

[Alkasia]

I don't recall if TSP helped with the anti-fascist operations that led to the fall of Nazi Europe, but TRR and TITO sure didn't.

What exactly are you suggesting here, Mall?

[RiderSyl]

Gonna go and clarify the Brunhilde comment because it wasn’t necessarily the best example, but BT is completely right in his reading of the comment. It was not a comparison at all. Whatever our disagreements, I have a good amount of respect for EW, I just think it far more suited for a condemnation than a commendation. And as far as I know, he’s OOCly sound at worst, in fact, I’ve heard stories he’s actually quite good. Certainly not a DOS player, and that was not the point.

However, it was a legitimate counter to what Mall said. His argument at this point is “fascists support the repeal so you can’t or else you are a fascist collaborator.” This is clearly BS, considering using that logic you would have to commend a DOS player for their anti-fascism. No comparisons were made- it was and is the logical outcome of that argument of Mall’s. One’s enemies is not the reason one should be voting for or against somebody.

It was not a comparison of anyone to anyone.

Oh, and spare me the "it's a valid point!"s and any whataboutism that's likely to follow. It's disgusting and unnecessary to bring up Brunhilde regardless. It doesn't matter how valid the point, nor the quality of the other argument.

I responded to your excuses before you even fucking made them. You know why? It's because I've been through this song and dance with too many other people that put their foot in their mouth and then decided to try and weasel their way out of it instead having to own up and apologize.

Speaking of that... Own up and apologize, please. I'm pretty sure I know your next 5 responses too if you keep along this route, and I've got plenty of free time.

[Mallorea and Riva]

I don't recall if TSP helped with the anti-fascist operations that led to the fall of Nazi Europe, but TRR and TITO sure didn't.

What exactly are you suggesting here, Mall?

That Wolf did way more to help eliminate Nazi Europe than TRR and TITO (who did nothing). Again, I just don't recall TSP's involvement or lack thereof.

[Fratt]

"Important roles in anti-fascist" operations doesn't really give the credit where the credit is due. I'm not surprised that you didn't put the explicit details of what he did since you'd lose votes. Which is rather the point.

The "explicit details" is that Nazi Europe had been abandoned by its community (which continues to exist intact in Nazi Europa - a one-letter change which somehow you turned into an 'elimination' with the power of pedantry) several months before the raid, and was only a placeholder with two or three nations.
Its loss had no effect whatsoever on the strength and capabilities of the far-right in NationStates, or even just of NE itself.

Pretty much the only happening to have a relevant impact on Nazi regions has been Captain Woodhouse's defection, and even that was limited to their gameplay projection.

[Mallorea and Riva]

"Important roles in anti-fascist" operations doesn't really give the credit where the credit is due. I'm not surprised that you didn't put the explicit details of what he did since you'd lose votes. Which is rather the point.

The "explicit details" is that Nazi Europe had been abandoned by its community (which continues to exist intact in Nazi Europa - a one-letter change which somehow you turned into an 'elimination' with the power of pedantry) several months before the raid, and was only a placeholder with two or three nations.
Its loss had no effect whatsoever on the strength and capabilities of the far-right in NationStates, or even just of NE itself.

Pretty much the only happening to have a relevant impact on Nazi regions has been Captain Woodhouse's defection, and even that was limited to their gameplay projection.

You can downplay it all you want, some people thought (and still do think) that taking away regions who have a history steeped in the Nazi ideology means something. That was a part of the basis for the successful commendation in the first place.

[RiderSyl]

Its loss had no effect whatsoever on the strength and capabilities of the far-right in NationStates, or even just of NE itself.

Pretty much the only happening to have a relevant impact on Nazi regions has been Captain Woodhouse's defection, and even that was limited to their gameplay projection.

I remember these criticisms of an operation on NE after they had moved on, and the overwhelming consensus was "It's a symbolic move because we never got in before they moved." Nobody cared about the pragmatism of it, not even the usual folks. Fash-bashing united both sides of R/D at that time. Defenders and TBR members were in the same chat trying to jump into Nazi Europe.

Repeal his Commendation for his coup of a GCR. I support that (though not this author). But don't downplay EW's anti-fascist work in the process. The ends do not justify the means.

[Fauxia]

The "explicit details" is that Nazi Europe had been abandoned by its community (which continues to exist intact in Nazi Europa - a one-letter change which somehow you turned into an 'elimination' with the power of pedantry) several months before the raid, and was only a placeholder with two or three nations.
Its loss had no effect whatsoever on the strength and capabilities of the far-right in NationStates, or even just of NE itself.

Pretty much the only happening to have a relevant impact on Nazi regions has been Captain Woodhouse's defection, and even that was limited to their gameplay projection.

You can downplay it all you want, some people thought (and still do think) that taking away regions who have a history steeped in the Nazi ideology means something. That was a part of the basis for the successful commendation in the first place.

Still doesn’t make you infallible, even ICly

Let me explain right now: I literally do not understand what I’m supposed to apologize for. I didn’t compare anyone to Brunhilde, so what’s the big deal? Do you simply want the name erased from all history? If that’s the case, I can understand why you’re upset. However, if your complaint is as you said here:

You just gonna pretend that Fauxia didn't majorly cross a line? Comparing Evil Wolf to a DOS player of that caliber and reputation is unacceptable.

I'm a defender but I'm not going to support this until he apologizes for that nonsense.

... your anger at me is founded on an incorrect interpretation of my post.

It’s explaining proper context, Syl. I’m not saying “it’s a valid point” to compare EW to Brunhilde, because it’s not, but that’s not at all what I did.

I am correcting the fact that you misinterpreted my post, not justifying a point that I (haven’t) made.

If your anger is based on an idea other than you thinking I compared EW to Brunhilde, please correct me in that regard, because it isn’t what you said earlier. I’d really like to apologize and regain your vote, but I can’t apologize when a) I don’t know what I am apologizing for, and b) didn’t do what I’m apologizing for.

Please enlighten me. Thank you.

[RiderSyl]

You can downplay it all you want, some people thought (and still do think) that taking away regions who have a history steeped in the Nazi ideology means something. That was a part of the basis for the successful commendation in the first place.

Still doesn’t make you infallible, even ICly

Fauxia, despite what I've aimed at you and BT for the Brun comment, I agree with BT's earlier comment on Mall:

Don't take the bait

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Good to know the fascists support the repeal Cheap political points ahoy.

Friendly reminder that the primary supporters of the repeal are the fascists since Wolf was instrumental in helping to destroy Nazi safe havens. A part of the commendation that certain parties of dubious political affiliation are choosing to ignore.

If this comes to the floor, I will vote the way I want to. Everyone who might dare to disagree with you isn't automatically a fascist, and a "reminder" like this isn't likely to sway me to vote against this proposal.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Friendly reminder that the primary supporters of the repeal are the fascists since Wolf was instrumental in helping to destroy Nazi safe havens. A part of the commendation that certain parties of dubious political affiliation are choosing to ignore.

If this comes to the floor, I will vote the way I want to. Everyone who might dare to disagree with you isn't automatically a fascist, and a "reminder" like this isn't likely to sway me to vote against this proposal.

If the repeal passes by your single vote then I will keep this in mind.