[DRAFT] Liberate The Internationale

[Syberis]

Hey guys, how about condemning massachusetts?

Please don't. I work there.

[Syberis]

In all seriousness, a proposal based (admittedly by the author) on whataboutism, a slippery slope fallacy, and, though not also stated, a fundamental lack of understanding of the GP history behind the vitriol against Kaiserreich and the region's utter disregard for any actual constructive feedback in the past... Is kinda doomed to fail. And even if it doesn't, it's kinda pointless. The people really laughing if KR's liberation passing isn't entirely limited to communist regions or even communist-friendly regions. They've kinda been... Historically not great people, and a big chunk of the gameplay sphere rose up against it. Their own behavior in the last lib vote really sealed the deal for a lot of mainstream GPers. When both sides of R/D decide you're a toxic asset, things generally don't go well for you.

EDIT TO ADD: Also, really, what is it with regions and screaming "WHAT ABOUT DEH COMMIES" whenever any region that harbors Nazis gets vaguely threatened? LIke... dude. those 12k votes aren't all coming from communists or communist sympathizers. There's a massive amount of players that just think that KR is a region that isn't good for NS, and when a region admits they harbor Nazis, a lot of people don't like that. Screaming about communism often seems to a lot of neutral individuals to be deflecting and belittling the harm Nazi ideologies have caused for the sake of cheap righty-points at best, and actual sympathizing at worst. It's not a good look for anyone.

[The 19th Century]

Indeed. Welp that happens when condemn got the honour badge connotation.

Frankly, I'm opposed to Liberate KAISERREICH. This is primarily designed to make a point--this whole liberate to destroy thing is a slippery slope.

Whupty shit.

[Pyeoning]

Besides, Stalin’s modernised a country torn apart by imperialism, and slavery.
He built factories, farms, and other agricultural centers that the world wouldn’t have survive without them being built.

It was these very polices, factories and mines that helped the USSR beat Fascism in WWII, as they did the most progress the world couldn’t live without.

You think Japan surrended Just because of the bombs? No, because USSR tore apart 70 percent of Japan’s forces, all of which were in Manchuria

So how about thanking him? Without him we would be speaking, Japanese, German or Italian right now. His brutalities were necessary for a better future.

[Novowarsawianka]

I have been at this for years, I can't really remember any Fascist regions being condemned, only the two large Nazi ones (NE and GGR), but maybe we are talking about the Fascist region tag.

The failings of your memory are not my problem.

can't nor won't defend their command, which was exposed to be full on antisemitic and racist

And therefore, hateful.

As for TI, the opposite is true. Your claim that we are hateful is based on our ideology alone, not based on our actions, and not based on anything we concretely support. You admit that you don't even know what it is we concretely support, so how could it be? Again, you're claiming some kind of equivalence between the two when no equivalence is shown in fact.

the slandering of US interventions which are almost always a good thing in the end

How positively imperial of you! There are many millions -- specifically, those on the other end of the gun from you -- who might be inclined to disagree with that assessment.

And ultimately that workers were better off under western capitalism than in the Soviet Union.

I guess that depends on what day it is.

But since your opinions are based upon what you admit are propagandized and politicized facts rather than an attempt at achieving an objective point of view, I should be unsurprised that the full context of the historical record escapes you.

And as for your charges -- I don't disagree that many of the actions taken by Stalin, including, to the extent that those you list are verifiable (which is not all that many), are evil. But it's strange that you direct your hatred so much towards Stalin and so little towards those who successfully genocided the Native Americans. Strange that none of this distaste for ethnic cleansing is directed towards the Israelis. Strange that I don't see you condemning the US-supported military juntas in South America, or the Iranian Shah, or Saddam Hussein. Evil wears many masks, Novowarsawianka, and your selective blindness to it is what makes Communists so upset -- even those who would agree with you on the bottom line about Stalin.

Again, I said aside the nazi ones, which I won't count as Fascist. There is a difference, mainly because Fascist regions used to stick to pre-1937 Italian Fascism, that is, one void of the racial nonsense imposed later.
I do not remember TFU being condemned, or any other actual Fascist region.

Like I've said, Fascism on here (so, not NE or GGR) was free of the racist sentiment, hence the ideology propagated there was no better or worse than yours, yet you also seek to judge on ideology.
We've already opened Pandora's box when the topic of "Nazi collaborators" was raised, which your region seems to define as "someone who has an embassy with a region sympathetic to nazism". Right to Life has been called that, because one of their over 200 embassies is with KR. It can lead to a series of problems from then on, until communist regions go "You're either with us or against us".

Like said, anti-fascism without anti-communism is not sincere. I do not doubt that you go at it for a good cause, but we can't leave any authoritarian form or collectivism alone, such ideologies are horrible either way. Yes, nazism is most likely the most disgusting of which, for it's outright racism, and yes, classical fascism and socialism are better than that, but that does not make them good.
Our goal as a society is to protect people's freedoms and give them more choices. Both you and the fascists, no matter how good you might be as people, want to limit both freedom and choices, especially when it comes to property and assoication rights.
Meanwhile, in the capitalist world, you are able to pursuit your ideals. You can found a party, NGO, company based on your ideological principles.

Not to further derail the thread, but since you've already mentioned it, regarding US interventions, ever thought about being on the end of the barrel which the US is trying to stop? Put yourself in the shoes of a Korean, Kurd, Kuwaiti, Croat, Albanian, and so on, where you would have faced tyranny or extermination were it not for US interventions. But, there is a thread for that on general.

[The Decapole counsils]

Can I too say something that goes to general, give a last more or less biased argument, and then say debate is over because it should be on general? Please?

[Novowarsawianka]

Off topic, but still, since Stalinism seems to be a big part of the whole debate...

Besides, Stalin’s modernised a country torn apart by imperialism, and slavery.
He built factories, farms, and other agricultural centers that the world wouldn’t have survive without them being built.

By imposing a police and militaristic state, enslaving all of Eastern Europe and doing his own brand of imperialism?
The world would have survived without the USSR.

It was these very polices, factories and mines that helped the USSR beat Fascism in WWII, as they did the most progress the world couldn’t live without.

Those factories and mines produced tons of metals which were shipped to Stalin's new friend in Berlin to fuel his war with the west. It was not until Germany attacked him that Stalin cared about stopping them.
Lest we forget that Stalin took no issue with his soldiers invading Poland alongside the Germans, and then even holding a victory parade together

You think Japan surrended Just because of the bombs? No, because USSR tore apart 70 percent of Japan’s forces, all of which were in Manchuria

No, it surrendered because the USA pushed them out of their newly conquered lands. 70% of Japan's forces? The Empire had almost 8 million soldiers, the USSR fought only a tenth of that. Not to forget that the true backbone of the Japanese was their navy, which was the strongest axis navy component. That navy was being defeated by the USA, not the USSR, the USSR was just the final nail in the coffin for them.

So how about thanking him? Without him we would be speaking, Japanese, German or Italian right now. His brutalities were necessary for a better future.

A better future? He occupied any country he came across and threw them into misery once more.
You know how he thanked pro-western partisans in Eastern Europe? By throwing them into gulags or having them shot. His actions are the reason why Eastern Europe stagnated drastically compared to the West.

[The Atlae Isles]

Move it to General kk thx

[Freezic Vast]

Let the Liberation games begin!

[The Atlae Isles]

Let the Liberation games begin!

You're a bit late...

[Lord Dominator]

Let the Liberation games begin!

They started last Sunday

[Blood Wine]

Noting the existing Security Council precedent set by SC #XXX, which justifies the use of liberations as a means to frustrate the propagators of hateful ideologies,

Does the SC have the house of cards rule? if so, this would violate it

[Chricoma]

Against, as Nazi Europa and KAISERREICH are being proposed against mostly for their politics I am against this as Internationale should be allowed to be Communist if they want just as much as Nazi Europa and KAISERREICH should be allowed to be fascist and/or national socialist if they want. STOP ABUSING LIBERATIONS

[Lord Dominator]

Noting the existing Security Council precedent set by SC #XXX, which justifies the use of liberations as a means to frustrate the propagators of hateful ideologies,

Does the SC have the house of cards rule? if so, this would violate it

The SC has no house of cards rule, since resolutions only technically express opinions, not create law

[Asturies-Llion]

I don't understand the point of this, we don't have a password and our founder is active. I suppose United Massachussets is a bit disgusted with the KAISERREICH liberation proposal and with us. Not every leftist likes to prosecute religious people, and we even have religious members in the region. Yes, I said leftist, because TI is a leftist region, and m-ls (what you call stalinists) are not majority. For example, I'm a social ecologist, a kind of anarchism.
I think that the liberation of KAISERREICH makes no sense, and many members of TI agree, check what we are voting and what our delegate voted.

"Liberate" The Internationale or not, we will move if we have to, we have moved other times. I'm a bit tired of this charade.

[West Leas Oros]

Against, as Nazi Europa and KAISERREICH are being proposed against mostly for their politics I am against this as Internationale should be allowed to be Communist if they want just as much as Nazi Europa and KAISERREICH should be allowed to be fascist and/or national socialist if they want. STOP ABUSING LIBERATIONS

You do realize this liberation is meant to show how ridiculous it is to ideologically "liberate" regions.

[Forestavia]

I stand in this chamber today in opposition of this so-called "liberation". There is a terrible trend happening in our world today and we need to stand against it. You'll get no argument from me that communism is a terrible oppressive ideology. But we cannot slip down this road where the Security Council is misused to threaten native nations on their own homeland. I have already stood in defense of KAISERREICH, The Red Fleet, and Nazi Europa and today I stand in defense of The Internationale, where Proletaire is founder and where a community of over 500 nations reside.

I'm sure many are already aware of my position on this issue. Call me broken record. These are not your traditional liberations. They are warzone creations. Yes, I am aware that the author of this particular resolution wrote this to prove a point. Nonetheless, if this resolution is submitted it will actually be voted on as a real resolution and if it passes it will have real gameplay consequences.

We must stand firm against this dangerous trend of sticking our nose where it doesn't belong. We are "liberating" these people from themselves against their will. Now let's play this out. If The Internationale is actually "liberated" and if Proletaire ceases to exist the officers and natives of that land will not have the option of protecting their region with a password. They deserve a chance to govern themselves their own way without any interference from the World Assembly.

Put yourself in their shoes. How would you feel if it was YOUR region that was targeted in this militaristic way? We are supposed to use the Security Council for the purposes of peace and harmony and this thing called the "liberation" is supposed to be used to assist natives on their own lands. It was never intended to be used to harass natives on their own soil. The Security Council has just under 1,000 nations on its radar. About half of those nations reside within TI which makes this vote particularly important. If this is submitted please vote against it.

[The Atlae Isles]

This was never intended to be submitted.

[Blood Wine]

These are not your traditional liberations. They are warzone creations.

Thats not how this works, like at all - educate yourself on how the game works

[West Leas Oros]

I stand in this chamber today in opposition of this so-called "liberation". There is a terrible trend happening in our world today and we need to stand against it. You'll get no argument from me that communism is a terrible oppressive ideology. But we cannot slip down this road where the Security Council is misused to threaten native nations on their own homeland. I have already stood in defense of KAISERREICH, The Red Fleet, and Nazi Europa and today I stand in defense of The Internationale, where Proletaire is founder and where a community of over 500 nations reside.

I'm sure many are already aware of my position on this issue. Call me broken record. These are not your traditional liberations. They are warzone creations. Yes, I am aware that the author of this particular resolution wrote this to prove a point. Nonetheless, if this resolution is submitted it will actually be voted on as a real resolution and if it passes it will have real gameplay consequences.

We must stand firm against this dangerous trend of sticking our nose where it doesn't belong. We are "liberating" these people from themselves against their will. Now let's play this out. If The Internationale is actually "liberated" and if Proletaire ceases to exist the officers and natives of that land will not have the option of protecting their region with a password. They deserve a chance to govern themselves their own way without any interference from the World Assembly.

Put yourself in their shoes. How would you feel if it was YOUR region that was targeted in this militaristic way? We are supposed to use the Security Council for the purposes of peace and harmony and this thing called the "liberation" is supposed to be used to assist natives on their own lands. It was never intended to be used to harass natives on their own soil. The Security Council has just under 1,000 nations on its radar. About half of those nations reside within TI which makes this vote particularly important. If this is submitted please vote against it.

You do realize this liberation is meant to show how ridiculous it is to ideologically "liberate" regions.

[Taviana SSR]

We firmly oppose this imperialist proposal.

[West Leas Oros]

We firmly oppose this imperialist proposal.

Comrade Trotsky Smite you, Tankie.

[Taviana SSR]

We firmly oppose this imperialist proposal.

Comrade Trotsky Smite you, Tankie.

[West Leas Oros]

Comrade Trotsky Smite you, Tankie.

Well played, "comrade".

[Blood Wine]

Alright folks lets focus on the silly proposal, not WW2 era communist politics