[DRAFT] Liberate The Internationale

[Lord Dominator]

Such capitalist propaganda! Capitalism has killed more than any ideology on this Earth! Industrial Revolutions, colonialism, famines, all which go unnoticed because of their capitalist propaganda methods for brainwashing! Why not get involved with your own nations, instead of affecting other happy ones?

Feel free to write a proposal attempting to liberate such a region, I need a good laugh

[Alkasia]

What a time to be alive. Welcome to the legislative revolution, the liberation wars have begun.

I love this quote so much. Might even sig it.

Oh believe me, I already have.

[Burninati0n]

You do understand that the same can be said for Fascist regions, and regions like Kaiserreich, NE and so on? Not everyone holds a monolithic view in any region in this game, same goes for you guys naturally. No, no one would claim that you all are stalinist apologists, but again, same can be said about not all in KR being philonazis or fascists, far from it, KR seems like a big roleplaying region, unlike regions like the Internationale, which takes ideological matters seriously.

Oh? Nazi Europe democratically elected a WA Delegate who dislikes Hitler? This is news to me.

Do you have any actual evidence for your belief that fascists have a wide range of conflicting views and deal internally with those issues in a democratic, respectful manner? Just wondering. This would, indeed, be news for me. If it were true, one would wonder why such regions were ever condemned in the first place.

And here we go with the Stalin apologism nonsense. You do realize you sound like the guys claiming that death camp victims were photoshopped by the NKVD and whatever? Stalin was a bloody monster, mass murderer and tyrant.

I'm confused by your reply.

I explicitly stated that:
1) Stalin committed evil acts, and,
2) this is why I dislike Stalin, and,
3) I can affirm from direct experience that many in my region - The Internationale - agree with me. (Many also disagree. The cool thing about democratic regions united for a common goal is that dissenting opinions are appreciated.)

I then stated that:
4) COINTELPRO existed, [and similar CIA/FBI programs still do]
5) their stated objective is to wage ideological warfare against Communism,
6) their stated methods often involve and involved the intentional character assassinations of Soviet figures.

Now, are you arguing that: (4) is false, (5) is false, (6) is false, or merely that it's rude to point out a propaganda offensive when you see one? Also, I fail to see how pointing this out amounts to "apologism." (Which is ultimately why your attacks against Misley and others are ridiculous -- you're twisting words far far beyond their original meanings.)

I don't speak for Misley, and I assume he might disagree with me on personal opinions about certain historical figures, but from this conversation it is quite clear that you're not even willing to read an opinion that agrees with you on a bottom line (eg. that Stalin was bad) just because that opinion is attempting to be balanced and not rely on incorrect (propagandized) information as well as appreciate nuance.

You see, here's the issue. You're arguing that my side (revolutionary communists) are evil because we supposedly don't accept dissent. (Or, the proposal you're supporting is, anyway.)

And yet here I am pointing out that state-sponsored propaganda has been used to smear the character of a figure for political purposes, and you're arguing that the mere fact that I pointed this out makes me contemptible. How do you deal with the cognitive dissonance?

[Pyeoning]

Let us not dare ask, then, of the crimes committed under capitalism.

Which do not exist. No one was never sent to a death camp or gulag in the name of capitalism. While some love to blame capitalism for issues in third world countries, those issues stem from decades of civil war, dictatorships, corruption and so on.

But speaking of that, The Internationale is known for promoting views like "Stalin era USSR being better than 2017 capitalism" (you know, people living in a tyranny with a low living standard and almost no freedom must have been so happy), no wonder insulting Stalin and noting how modern capitalism is better for the "working class" than his reign ever was would get you banned.
Not to forget the region North Korea unironically supporting the "DPRK".

North Korea is the remains of Japanese fascism, not communism.


It's pathetic to see how these people try to look at those hitlerites in Nazi Europa from a high horse while overlooking the fact that they are the same hate-filled, dictator-lovers they are (all though, thankfully, without the racist and anti-semitic component which Nazi Europe has). Luckily, NationStates never got to see them team up like their real life counterparts.

Such capitalist propaganda! Capitalism has killed more than any ideology on this Earth! Industrial Revolutions, colonialism, famines, all which go unnoticed because of their capitalist propaganda methods for brainwashing! Why not get involved with your own nations, instead of affecting other happy ones?

Since when are Industrial Revolutions something bad? Colonialism is not something caused by capitalism, but rather by imperialism, which existed in fuedal, fascist and socialist societies as well (nice talking about letting happy nations alone while communism invated all of eastern Europe). Famines are also not exclusive to capitalism, and are usually the cause of natural issues or horrible management or even overpopulation.

All in all, capitalism is an ideology about the private possession of property and capital, and free labor association. Capitalism does not include a "kill people who disagree on the spot" line of thought like the whole collectivist-authoritarian block of ideologies. Try yelling anti-capitalist slogans in a capitalist country today, nothing will happen, try yelling anti-fascist or anti-communist phrases in a fascist or communist country and you'll have a nice trip to concentration camp or gulag.

Firstly, did you know that Abraham Lincoln, and America in WWII had concentration camps? Also. More than 60 percent of Russians want the USSR back!

[Pyeoning]

Hey guys, how about condemning massachusetts?

[Novowarsawianka]

You do understand that the same can be said for Fascist regions, and regions like Kaiserreich, NE and so on? Not everyone holds a monolithic view in any region in this game, same goes for you guys naturally. No, no one would claim that you all are stalinist apologists, but again, same can be said about not all in KR being philonazis or fascists, far from it, KR seems like a big roleplaying region, unlike regions like the Internationale, which takes ideological matters seriously.

Oh? Nazi Europe democratically elected a WA Delegate who dislikes Hitler? This is news to me.

Do you have any actual evidence for your belief that fascists have a wide range of conflicting views and deal internally with those issues in a democratic, respectful manner? Just wondering. This would, indeed, be news for me. If it were true, one would wonder why such regions were ever condemned in the first place.

And here we go with the Stalin apologism nonsense. You do realize you sound like the guys claiming that death camp victims were photoshopped by the NKVD and whatever? Stalin was a bloody monster, mass murderer and tyrant.

I'm confused by your reply.

I explicitly stated that:
1) Stalin committed evil acts, and,
2) this is why I dislike Stalin, and,
3) I can affirm from direct experience that many in my region - The Internationale - agree with me. (Many also disagree. The cool thing about democratic regions united for a common goal is that dissenting opinions are appreciated.)

I then stated that:
4) COINTELPRO existed, [and similar CIA/FBI programs still do]
5) their stated objective is to wage ideological warfare against Communism,
6) their stated methods often involve and involved the intentional character assassinations of Soviet figures.

Now, are you arguing that: (4) is false, (5) is false, (6) is false, or merely that it's rude to point out a propaganda offensive when you see one? Also, I fail to see how pointing this out amounts to "apologism." (Which is ultimately why your attacks against Misley and others are ridiculous -- you're twisting words far far beyond their original meanings.)

I don't speak for Misley, and I assume he might disagree with me on personal opinions about certain historical figures, but from this conversation it is quite clear that you're not even willing to read an opinion that agrees with you on a bottom line (eg. that Stalin was bad) just because that opinion is attempting to be balanced and not rely on incorrect (propagandized) information as well as appreciate nuance.

You see, here's the issue. You're arguing that my side (revolutionary communists) are evil because we supposedly don't accept dissent. (Or, the proposal you're supporting is, anyway.)

And yet here I am pointing out that state-sponsored propaganda has been used to smear the character of a figure for political purposes, and you're arguing that the mere fact that I pointed this out makes me contemptible. How do you deal with the cognitive dissonance?

I have been at this for years, I can't really remember any Fascist regions being condemned, only the two large Nazi ones (NE and GGR), but maybe we are talking about the Fascist region tag.
Back in the old days, there were 3-4 (actual) Fascist regions of any note: The Fascist Union, Fifth Empire, The Union of Fascists, and the Coalition of Fascist Nations (TFU of course being the most relevant of them all, later merging with TUF which failed after a while, leading to the boost in mid sized fascist regions today).
CoFN is extremely isolationist, and as I remember it, it's "duce" seems to avoid any diplomatic ties to nazi regions, in fact, I do think he openly refused to be part of any coalition featuring NE.
FE had/has non-fascist government members, and while the founder may have some anti-semitic and nazi-apologist leanings, at least their former year long head of government was against nazis.
Back at the all father of NationStates Fascism, TFU, or at least it's former supreme leader, Serpentura, they showed at several points that the alliance with GGR and NE was merely made out of a need for allies against communism on here.

But speaking of NE, Woodhouse, the face of anti-communist raiding, left NE after he found out that their chatroom was practically an antisemitic hive of rubbish. Woodhouse now operates BLITZKRIEG as an anti-fascist and anti-communist raiding region.

All in all, non of those regions were homogenous in any way, ideological or otherwise. I do even remember a transgendered fascist being in TFU once, so take than in contrast to some of the nearly religiously fundamentalist members, making a huge spectrum down to the non-fascist members.
We should also not forget that NE still most likely draws roleplayers and gameplayers with no connection to the ideology (can't nor won't defend their command, which was exposed to be full on antisemitic and racist).

As for Stalin, I do not disagree that there was propaganda to further demonize him, we still have stuff like that today (for instance the slandering of US interventions which are almost always a good thing in the end), but it should not detract from the fact that:
-he killed millions
-he enslaved millions
-he was a tyrant
And ultimately that workers were better off under western capitalism than in the Soviet Union.

[Fauxia]

Hey guys, how about condemning massachusetts?

Sure, let's recognize him for this brave proposal.

[Novowarsawianka]

Firstly, did you know that Abraham Lincoln, and America in WWII had concentration camps? Also. More than 60 percent of Russians want the USSR back!

Camps existing during wartime in the US? Horrible, but not so shocking. Gulags operated in peace time, as did early German death camps.

But, we detract, were those camps used to arrest the enemies of capitalism? Were any of the victims put there because of capitalism? Of course not.

You can't use Capitalism as a reason for murder, it has no grounds to that, meanwhile, Communism and Nazism have murder deeply rooted into their ideologies (be it out of racial hatred, or social hatred).

[Fauxia]

Can we leave the General to General, please, and not bring it into the Security Council?

[Novowarsawianka]

Can we leave the General to General, please, and not bring it into the Security Council?

Sadly no.

I remember years ago, when Hell or Liberal Haven was being liberated, that the pretext was how the RWU was raiding based on ideological reasons, but the same pretext is never used on the balant ideological raiding regions like the Internationale does.

It is obvious that they go on thinking that what they represent is somehow more noble by default. Again I say, anti-fascism isn't genuine without anti-communism mixed in.

[United Massachusetts]

Thank you, Burninati0n, for so eloquently illustrating my point.

So, I may or may not have told a little white lie at the beginning--I wasn't really intending on submitting this (though I came awfully close to wanting to--I even started collecting stamps for a time, when I was leaning towards doing it; all of the 0stamps donated to me have been returned to their owners). Instead, I merely intended to illustrate the double-standard that NS at-large applies to right-wing individuals through a little social experiment. Now, I present my results:

1. The same arguments used to label KAISERREICH fascist could be applied to call The Internationale Stalinist. The evidence labelling KAISERREICH as fascist points to the Nazi tendencies of certain members thereof, and the general unwillingness of KAISERREICH to forcibly banish those Nazis. These Nazis, I might point out, do not form the majority population of KAISERREICH, or the official position of the region.
   
   I attempted to apply the same argument to Stalinism in the Internationale. I asserted that there are Stalinists within The Internationale and that the region refuses to take action to remove their influence, a claim affirmed true by Burninati0n in the following post:
   

   I explicitly stated that:
   1) Stalin committed evil acts, and,
   2) this is why I dislike Stalin, and,
   3) I can affirm from direct experience that many in my region - The Internationale - agree with me. (Many also disagree. The cool thing about democratic regions united for a common goal is that dissenting opinions are appreciated.)

   
   I will note, however, that TI is more Stalinist than KAISERREICH is Nazi, given the word choice ("many") of Burninati0n. If one accepts that Stalinism is an evil ideology, which I think most on NS do, then it follows, using the arguments of Liberate KAISERREICH, that The Internationale is a Stalinist region that ought to be liberated.
   
   It can be said that some within TI espouse a hateful ideology (Stalinism) and that the region has not taken a firm stance against this kind of hatred.
   
   
2. There was much opposition to liberating The Internationale, but not nearly as much opposition to liberating KAISERREICH. This much is evident merely by reading through the two threads. I was told on several occassions that I was wasting my time, and that this whole thing was a joke, etc. Notably among them included the Stalinist Administrator of TI, Caelapes, who said:
   
   

   why waste your time? you've got to have one of the worst track records in the game for failed SC proposals

   
   
   
3. There exists two and only two ways of explaining this discrepancy, and neither one looks good for the anti-KAISERREICH cabal. They are as follows:
   1. Stalinism is not fundamentally evil in the eyes of NationStates.
   2. There exists a double-standard on NationStates against right-wing regions such as KAISERREICH.
   I fail to see any other reasonable explanation for supporting the liberation of KAISERREICH, but not of The Internationale. And, to be honest, I do think that the majority here rejects Stalinism to be just as abhorrent as fascism (or I at least hope so). If that is not the case, I'd be happy to host a debate about Stalin over in General. I'll even invite Misley.

---

In summary, this resolution perfectly illustrates the hypocrisy of many here on NationStates, or, at the very least, their general indifference towards Stalinist hatred.

Just as The Internationale is not Stalinist, KAISERREICH is not Nazi. But the reason they are labelled such, when TI is almost never called Stalinist, is because the political right here is treated unfairly and with suspicion. Thus, KAISERREICH is apparently Nazi (and, by extension, everyone it, in NS' eyes), and Right to Life is a "Nazi collaborator" for having an embassy with KAISERREICH. It's nonsensical.

I am opposed to the weaponised liberations of any region that is not openly Stalinist or fascist. End of story.

[The Atlae Isles]

I’m afraid I don’t see your point. You don’t receive much opposition to your proposal and then you conclude that there exists a double standard?

Edit: Nice to know that my initial impression was that it was tit-for-tat and non-serious was correct.

[United Massachusetts]

I’m afraid I don’t see your point. You don’t receive much opposition to your proposal and then you conclude that there exists a double standard?

I did recieve opposition to my proposal, and that's the issue.

[The Atlae Isles]

I’m afraid I don’t see your point. You don’t receive much opposition to your proposal and then you conclude that there exists a double standard?

I did recieve opposition to my proposal, and that's the issue.

But in your words, not as much as there as to Liberate KAISERREICH. That tells me that KAISERREICH fought harder than the Internationale then.

Apologies, misread. I think the opposition was mainly because it seemed like a petty response and something of an old grudge.

Edit2: based on my reading of Liberate TCC and Liberate KR, there was lots of opposition. There is 30 pages of argument, after all.

[United Massachusetts]

I did recieve opposition to my proposal, and that's the issue.

But in your words, not as much as there as to Liberate KAISERREICH. That tells me that KAISERREICH fought harder than the Internationale then.

The other way around:

There was much opposition to liberating The Internationale, but not nearly as much [opposition] to liberating KAISERREICH

[Lord Dominator]

I did recieve opposition to my proposal, and that's the issue.

But in your words, not as much as there as to Liberate KAISERREICH. That tells me that KAISERREICH fought harder than the Internationale then.

Apologies, misread. I think the opposition was mainly because it seemed like a petty response and something of an old grudge.

Edit2: based on my reading of Liberate TCC and Liberate KR, there was lots of opposition. There is 30 pages of argument, after all.

Most of that is from people who keep popping in and forcing us to repeat the arguments for the liberation of KR or associated arguments. Trust me, I know.

[The Atlae Isles]

But in your words, not as much as there as to Liberate KAISERREICH. That tells me that KAISERREICH fought harder than the Internationale then.

The other way around:

There was much opposition to liberating The Internationale, but not nearly as much [opposition] to liberating KAISERREICH

I’m just going to copy/paste my edits here:

I think the opposition was mainly because it seemed like a petty response and something of an old grudge.

Based on my reading of Liberate TCC and Liberate KR, there was lots of opposition. There is 30 pages of argument, after all.

[Prydania]

There's no doubt in my mind that United Massachusetts made this as a petty response to the Liberate KREICH proposal.
That being said? The end result is sound, and The Internationale deserves this.

Full support.

[The Atlae Isles]

There's no doubt in my mind that United Massachusetts made this as a petty response to the Liberate KREICH proposal.
That being said? The end result is sound, and The Internationale deserves this.

Full support.

Doesn’t look like UM wrote this to actually submit it, though.

[Prydania]

There's no doubt in my mind that United Massachusetts made this as a petty response to the Liberate KREICH proposal.
That being said? The end result is sound, and The Internationale deserves this.

Full support.

Doesn’t look like UM wrote this to actually submit it, though.

That's truly unfortunate.

[The Atlae Isles]

Doesn’t look like UM wrote this to actually submit it, though.

That's truly unfortunate.

With that in mind, I think it’s unfair to extrapolate any “NationStates bias” from this.

[Prydania]

That's truly unfortunate.

With that in mind, I think it’s unfair to extrapolate any “NationStates bias” from this.

Agreed.

[Kurnugia]

But in your words, not as much as there as to Liberate KAISERREICH. That tells me that KAISERREICH fought harder than the Internationale then.

The other way around:

There was much opposition to liberating The Internationale, but not nearly as much [opposition] to liberating KAISERREICH

Mostly due to that: you don't stand a chance. Why waste our time with that?

[Burninati0n]

So, I may or may not have told a little white lie at the beginning--I wasn't really intending on submitting this (though I came awfully close to wanting to--I even started collecting stamps for a time, when I was leaning towards doing it; all of the 0stamps donated to me have been returned to their owners). Instead, I merely intended to illustrate the double-standard that NS at-large applies to right-wing individuals through a little social experiment. Now, I present my results:

So let me get this straight.

1) You posted inflammatory BS about my region (I am the WA Delegate of TI)
2) You lost the ensuing argument or otherwise entirely refused to engage in it
3) You then claimed victory because your point was going to be all along that someone argued with you
4) ???
5) Profit!

Ok pal.

If it counts as "evidence" that NationStates has a bias that the WA Delegate of the region you posted inflammatory BS about came and defended his region, then it might be time to do some quality control on the acid you're tripping.

And for the record:
1) TI voted against liberating Kaiserreich more than a day ago.
2) Stalinism is not an "inherently hateful ideology" the same way that Naziism is, and the fact that you're claiming that it is shows that you have absolutely either (a) never read Mein Kampf, (b) never read Dialectical and Historical Materialism or Marxism and the National and Colonial Question, or (c) both (a) and (b). I strongly lean towards (c). The fact that Stalin did evil things runs counter to much of Marxist thought -- sometimes even his own stated thought. The fact that Hitler did evil things is very much in line with what he said he would do in Mein Kampf as well as what earlier protofascist thinkers said should be done by fascist rulers. (I'm thinking of Carl Schmitt's 1923 Crisis of Parliamentary Democracy.) Your attempt to sustain the false equivalence between fascism and Communism works only as long as you willfully and intentionally blind yourself to the actual contents of the ideology and limit yourself to selective and thoughtless quote mining.
3) If it is not already against the forum rules to post a thread for the stated and express purpose to annoy people, it should be so. UM has in the quoted post admitted to doing just this.

I have been at this for years, I can't really remember any Fascist regions being condemned, only the two large Nazi ones (NE and GGR), but maybe we are talking about the Fascist region tag.

The failings of your memory are not my problem.

can't nor won't defend their command, which was exposed to be full on antisemitic and racist

And therefore, hateful.

As for TI, the opposite is true. Your claim that we are hateful is based on our ideology alone, not based on our actions, and not based on anything we concretely support. You admit that you don't even know what it is we concretely support, so how could it be? Again, you're claiming some kind of equivalence between the two when no equivalence is shown in fact.

the slandering of US interventions which are almost always a good thing in the end

How positively imperial of you! There are many millions -- specifically, those on the other end of the gun from you -- who might be inclined to disagree with that assessment.

And ultimately that workers were better off under western capitalism than in the Soviet Union.

I guess that depends on what day it is.

But since your opinions are based upon what you admit are propagandized and politicized facts rather than an attempt at achieving an objective point of view, I should be unsurprised that the full context of the historical record escapes you.

And as for your charges -- I don't disagree that many of the actions taken by Stalin, including, to the extent that those you list are verifiable (which is not all that many), are evil. But it's strange that you direct your hatred so much towards Stalin and so little towards those who successfully genocided the Native Americans. Strange that none of this distaste for ethnic cleansing is directed towards the Israelis. Strange that I don't see you condemning the US-supported military juntas in South America, or the Iranian Shah, or Saddam Hussein. Evil wears many masks, Novowarsawianka, and your selective blindness to it is what makes Communists so upset -- even those who would agree with you on the bottom line about Stalin.

[United Massachusetts]

@Burninati0n: My purpose was not to annoy anyone; it was to make a point. The point is that anyone trying to apply the same logic to the left as to the right is ridiculed, as you have proven. And yes, it was really my intent to make a point.

I apologize sincerely for any frustration I have caused, and I realize that, in hindsight, I may have approached this from too inflammatory a perspective. So again, that is my fault.

And I shouldn't have made TI my target, given their vote on the SC resolution. I was inconsiderate. And though I stand by what I said, I'll acknowledge that part of my militance is in fact due to an old grudge. In the future, I'll try to give you all a chance--though, to clarify, I still am strongly opposed to the actions of TRF.