[DRAFT] Liberate The Internationale

[United Massachusetts]

Before I run a campaign, may I ask for a legality ruling as to whether this is tit-for-tat?

[Caelapes]

Before I run a campaign, may I ask for a legality ruling as to whether this is tit-for-tat?

why waste your time? you've got to have one of the worst track records in the game for failed SC proposals

[United Massachusetts]

Before I run a campaign, may I ask for a legality ruling as to whether this is tit-for-tat?

why waste your time? you've got to have one of the worst track records in the game for failed SC proposals

That's fine by me.

[Lord Dominator]

Before I run a campaign, may I ask for a legality ruling as to whether this is tit-for-tat?

why waste your time? you've got to have one of the worst track records in the game for failed SC proposals

How many failed so far?

[United Massachusetts]

why waste your time? you've got to have one of the worst track records in the game for failed SC proposals

How many failed so far?

Let's see:

• Commend Christian Democrats: crushed at vote
• Repeal "Commend The Red Fleet": crushed at vote
• Commend Auralia: not yet submitted; likely to fail
• Liberate The Internationale: not yet submitted; likely to fail
• Commend Forest: coauthor; passed

[West Leas Oros]

How many failed so far?

Let's see:

• Commend Christian Democrats: crushed at vote
• Repeal "Commend The Red Fleet": crushed at vote
• Commend Auralia: not yet submitted; likely to fail
• Liberate The Internationale: not yet submitted; likely to fail
• Commend Forest: coauthor; passed

Why did each of them fail? I want reasons why these didn’t work.

[Lord Dominator]

Let's see:

• Commend Christian Democrats: crushed at vote
• Repeal "Commend The Red Fleet": crushed at vote
• Commend Auralia: not yet submitted; likely to fail
• Liberate The Internationale: not yet submitted; likely to fail
• Commend Forest: coauthor; passed

Why did each of them fail? I want reasons why these didn’t work.

I know the first one was that GPers aren't fond of CD

[West Leas Oros]

Why did each of them fail? I want reasons why these didn’t work.

I know the first one was that GPers aren't fond of CD

Because “religion is the opiate of the masses”?

[Lord Dominator]

I know the first one was that GPers aren't fond of CD

Because “religion is the opiate of the masses”?

I believe it was because he tended to pop into GP threads or something and say stupid stuff. Also yes, dislike of some of his politics on abortion and such.

[West Leas Oros]

Before I run a campaign, may I ask for a legality ruling as to whether this is tit-for-tat?

why waste your time? you've got to have one of the worst track records in the game for failed SC proposals

That still won’t stop him from trying to bring you to justice.

[Wrapper]

Before I run a campaign, may I ask for a legality ruling as to whether this is tit-for-tat?

Not a ruling, but if you take out the first clause, it makes it a whole lot less obvious. It would be more of a "okay, due to the comments, it might be a bit tit-for-tat, but nyehhhh it's OK" rather than a "zOMG tit-for-tat delete that sucker". If that makes sense.

Still no support, of course. This is not what liberations are for and is a waste of our time.

[Pyeoning]

Such capitalist propaganda! Capitalism has killed more than any ideology on this Earth! Industrial Revolutions, colonialism, famines, all which go unnoticed because of their capitalist propaganda methods for brainwashing! Why not get involved with your own nations, instead of affecting other happy ones?

[Novowarsawianka]

Communism is also, as an ideology, built by those who practice it. Those who practice it (ie. regimes adopting a communist model), have been overwhelmingly horrendous. Says something about the ideology, no?

Let us not dare ask, then, of the crimes committed under capitalism.

Which do not exist. No one was never sent to a death camp or gulag in the name of capitalism. While some love to blame capitalism for issues in third world countries, those issues stem from decades of civil war, dictatorships, corruption and so on.

But speaking of that, The Internationale is known for promoting views like "Stalin era USSR being better than 2017 capitalism" (you know, people living in a tyranny with a low living standard and almost no freedom must have been so happy), no wonder insulting Stalin and noting how modern capitalism is better for the "working class" than his reign ever was would get you banned.
Not to forget the region North Korea unironically supporting the "DPRK".

It's pathetic to see how these people try to look at those hitlerites in Nazi Europa from a high horse while overlooking the fact that they are the same hate-filled, dictator-lovers they are (all though, thankfully, without the racist and anti-semitic component which Nazi Europe has). Luckily, NationStates never got to see them team up like their real life counterparts.

Such capitalist propaganda! Capitalism has killed more than any ideology on this Earth! Industrial Revolutions, colonialism, famines, all which go unnoticed because of their capitalist propaganda methods for brainwashing! Why not get involved with your own nations, instead of affecting other happy ones?

Since when are Industrial Revolutions something bad? Colonialism is not something caused by capitalism, but rather by imperialism, which existed in fuedal, fascist and socialist societies as well (nice talking about letting happy nations alone while communism invated all of eastern Europe). Famines are also not exclusive to capitalism, and are usually the cause of natural issues or horrible management or even overpopulation.

All in all, capitalism is an ideology about the private possession of property and capital, and free labor association. Capitalism does not include a "kill people who disagree on the spot" line of thought like the whole collectivist-authoritarian block of ideologies. Try yelling anti-capitalist slogans in a capitalist country today, nothing will happen, try yelling anti-fascist or anti-communist phrases in a fascist or communist country and you'll have a nice trip to concentration camp or gulag.

[The Noble Thatcherites]

What a time to be alive. Welcome to the legislative revolution, the liberation wars have begun.

I love this quote so much. Might even sig it.

[Kurnugia]

why waste your time? you've got to have one of the worst track records in the game for failed SC proposals

That still won’t stop him from trying to bring you to justice.

Lol. You are my favourite comic relief. you know that?

[Kokoku]

We started off on the wrong foot. But, if this resolution passes, you have my support.

[Kavagrad]

We started off on the wrong foot. But, if this resolution passes, you have my support.

Do you support this proposal? If so, how can you justify that, since you're opposing Liberate Nazi Europa on the grounds of "the WA shouldn't be used to help destroy regions"?

[Kokoku]

We started off on the wrong foot. But, if this resolution passes, you have my support.

Do you support this proposal? If so, how can you justify that, since you're opposing Liberate Nazi Europa on the grounds of "the WA shouldn't be used to help destroy regions"?

It’s a support of protest. If we can liberate a region because of speech, and this set, then I’m going to exercise it, just to make it fair.

I don’t agree with it one bit, and I will work to repeal the abuse once things are done.

[PatrickStar]

Before I run a campaign, may I ask for a legality ruling as to whether this is tit-for-tat?

Not a ruling, but if you take out the first clause, it makes it a whole lot less obvious. It would be more of a "okay, due to the comments, it might be a bit tit-for-tat, but nyehhhh it's OK" rather than a "zOMG tit-for-tat delete that sucker". If that makes sense.

Still no support, of course. This is not what liberations are for and is a waste of our time.

Thank you, Wrapper. When even the mods agree that this is a waste of time and a gross abuse of liberations, it's time to stop.

[Cyng]

Full support

[Wrapper]

Thank you, Wrapper. When even the mods agree that this is a waste of time and a gross abuse of liberations, it's time to stop.

Time out there, buddy. The opinions espoused above are by Wrapper the player, not Wrapper the moderator, and should not be construed as an official moderator stance.

I guess I need to go back to using my PJWOW puppet to post opinions here.

[PatrickStar]

Thank you, Wrapper. When even the mods agree that this is a waste of time and a gross abuse of liberations, it's time to stop.

Time out there, buddy. The opinions espoused above are by Wrapper the player, not Wrapper the moderator, and should not be construed as an official moderator stance.

I guess I need to go back to using my PJWOW puppet to post opinions here.

True, but "Wrapper the player" still holds a lot of sway.

[Burninati0n]

communism is a fundamentally hateful ideology, particularly towards religious individuals.

I've been going after TI and TRF for awhile

Anyway, besides this being a certain kind of head case, it happens to be false. Surely, Communism (and most of us in TI) do view religion as misguided, our typical belief is that the culprit is institutional, not individual. Those who follow the religions of the old world are the victims of religious institutions and of the system that has misled them more broadly. And, as you might imagine, most of us don't particularly endorse victim-blaming.

That said, although it is a minority, there are religious Communists, and they're not pariahs. Again, there are 2 posters on this thread with some difficulty separating the extreme right and extreme Left -- but here's a major difference you should keep in mind: the extreme Left doesn't necessarily believe in the suppression of minorities. (TI recently did an internal poll, and 10 voters expressed a religion, with a further 8 having spiritual beliefs, and 27 of us -- including the elected WA delegate of the region -- do not embrace a religion, but are notably open to the possibility that one might be correct. This evidence alone demonstrates the hilariously mistaken nature of UM's outside perspective of TI.)

There is yet another thing that gives lie to UM's view that TI is despicable...

@Ratateague: I bring it up because most of my interactions with them (in particular, Misley), have seen them defending Stalin and supporting his actions, including the racially-motivated Holodomor. I also saw TRF joyously raise the flag of IRL North Korea over a roleplay region while praising the Kim regime. That appears to me to be condoning and supporting the atrocities of communist regimes.

But again, the elected WA Delegate of TI does not hold these views. In fact, many of our loudest voices are from our quite numerous anarchist faction will surely admit to disliking Stalin as a result of the terrible things he did. I have said it before and will say it again:

One hundred years ago, the most audacious revolution in history took place in Russian. Vladimir Lenin and his Bolsheviks imagined a world completely remade, on the principles of justice, equality, and solidarity. They imagined a world where everyone works together for the common good, free from the class divisions that tore Russian apart, and continue to tear the world apart. The workers would no longer have to obey their bosses, women would no have to obey their husbands, and everyone would live in true freedom and equality. They imagined a state that was controlled by the common workers, not the powerful property owning elite.

Regardless of what happened next, and why, we can say that largely in the hundred years since, the dream itself has been destroyed. Today we are taught that we cannot imagine a new form of society, only make minor, superficial changes to what we have. But what is life without a dream? When we awake from a beautiful dream, to the harsh reality of the world, do we vow to never dream again?

Oh, and also, let's not put Stalin in charge next time.

The worry, however, is that Stalin has been the target of a coordinated propaganda campaign orchestrated (largely illegally) by certain US Government organizations that have and had a strong incentive to exaggerate and lie in order to propagate a certain kind of worldview, and intend to attack Communism as an ideal without ever addressing its ideals through the mechanism of character assassination.

TL;DR,
The Internationale and its community, the Left, and Communism, are complex and hold differing views on many topics, but UM's personally motivated condemn-disguised-as-a-liberate proposal is based on a simplistic view that paints the wider culture with a single brush. Those of you who believe him (and a couple other posters on here) do so at the cost of your own attachment to the truth and reality.

[Novowarsawianka]

communism is a fundamentally hateful ideology, particularly towards religious individuals.

I've been going after TI and TRF for awhile

Anyway, besides this being a certain kind of head case, it happens to be false. Surely, Communism (and most of us in TI) do view religion as misguided, our typical belief is that the culprit is institutional, not individual. Those who follow the religions of the old world are the victims of religious institutions and of the system that has misled them more broadly. And, as you might imagine, most of us don't particularly endorse victim-blaming.

That said, although it is a minority, there are religious Communists, and they're not pariahs. Again, there are 2 posters on this thread with some difficulty separating the extreme right and extreme Left -- but here's a major difference you should keep in mind: the extreme Left doesn't necessarily believe in the suppression of minorities. (TI recently did an internal poll, and 10 voters expressed a religion, with a further 8 having spiritual beliefs, and 27 of us -- including the elected WA delegate of the region -- do not embrace a religion, but are notably open to the possibility that one might be correct. This evidence alone demonstrates the hilariously mistaken nature of UM's outside perspective of TI.)

There is yet another thing that gives lie to UM's view that TI is despicable...

@Ratateague: I bring it up because most of my interactions with them (in particular, Misley), have seen them defending Stalin and supporting his actions, including the racially-motivated Holodomor. I also saw TRF joyously raise the flag of IRL North Korea over a roleplay region while praising the Kim regime. That appears to me to be condoning and supporting the atrocities of communist regimes.

But again, the elected WA Delegate of TI does not hold these views. In fact, many of our loudest voices are from our quite numerous anarchist faction will surely admit to disliking Stalin as a result of the terrible things he did. I have said it before and will say it again:

One hundred years ago, the most audacious revolution in history took place in Russian. Vladimir Lenin and his Bolsheviks imagined a world completely remade, on the principles of justice, equality, and solidarity. They imagined a world where everyone works together for the common good, free from the class divisions that tore Russian apart, and continue to tear the world apart. The workers would no longer have to obey their bosses, women would no have to obey their husbands, and everyone would live in true freedom and equality. They imagined a state that was controlled by the common workers, not the powerful property owning elite.

Regardless of what happened next, and why, we can say that largely in the hundred years since, the dream itself has been destroyed. Today we are taught that we cannot imagine a new form of society, only make minor, superficial changes to what we have. But what is life without a dream? When we awake from a beautiful dream, to the harsh reality of the world, do we vow to never dream again?

Oh, and also, let's not put Stalin in charge next time.

The worry, however, is that Stalin has been the target of a coordinated propaganda campaign orchestrated (largely illegally) by certain US Government organizations that have and had a strong incentive to exaggerate and lie in order to propagate a certain kind of worldview, and intend to attack Communism as an ideal without ever addressing its ideals through the mechanism of character assassination.

TL;DR,
The Internationale and its community, the Left, and Communism, are complex and hold differing views on many topics, but UM's personally motivated condemn-disguised-as-a-liberate proposal is based on a simplistic view that paints the wider culture with a single brush. Those of you who believe him (and a couple other posters on here) do so at the cost of your own attachment to the truth and reality.

You do understand that the same can be said for Fascist regions, and regions like Kaiserreich, NE and so on? Not everyone holds a monolithic view in any region in this game, same goes for you guys naturally. No, no one would claim that you all are stalinist apologists, but again, same can be said about not all in KR being philonazis or fascists, far from it, KR seems like a big roleplaying region, unlike regions like the Internationale, which takes ideological matters seriously.

And here we go with the Stalin apologism nonsense. You do realize you sound like the guys claiming that death camp victims were photoshopped by the NKVD and whatever? Stalin was a bloody monster, mass murderer and tyrant.

[Kavagrad]

Anyway, besides this being a certain kind of head case, it happens to be false. Surely, Communism (and most of us in TI) do view religion as misguided, our typical belief is that the culprit is institutional, not individual. Those who follow the religions of the old world are the victims of religious institutions and of the system that has misled them more broadly. And, as you might imagine, most of us don't particularly endorse victim-blaming.

That said, although it is a minority, there are religious Communists, and they're not pariahs. Again, there are 2 posters on this thread with some difficulty separating the extreme right and extreme Left -- but here's a major difference you should keep in mind: the extreme Left doesn't necessarily believe in the suppression of minorities. (TI recently did an internal poll, and 10 voters expressed a religion, with a further 8 having spiritual beliefs, and 27 of us -- including the elected WA delegate of the region -- do not embrace a religion, but are notably open to the possibility that one might be correct. This evidence alone demonstrates the hilariously mistaken nature of UM's outside perspective of TI.)

There is yet another thing that gives lie to UM's view that TI is despicable...

But again, the elected WA Delegate of TI does not hold these views. In fact, many of our loudest voices are from our quite numerous anarchist faction will surely admit to disliking Stalin as a result of the terrible things he did. I have said it before and will say it again:

The worry, however, is that Stalin has been the target of a coordinated propaganda campaign orchestrated (largely illegally) by certain US Government organizations that have and had a strong incentive to exaggerate and lie in order to propagate a certain kind of worldview, and intend to attack Communism as an ideal without ever addressing its ideals through the mechanism of character assassination.

TL;DR,
The Internationale and its community, the Left, and Communism, are complex and hold differing views on many topics, but UM's personally motivated condemn-disguised-as-a-liberate proposal is based on a simplistic view that paints the wider culture with a single brush. Those of you who believe him (and a couple other posters on here) do so at the cost of your own attachment to the truth and reality.

You do understand that the same can be said for Fascist regions, and regions like Kaiserreich, NE and so on? Not everyone holds a monolithic view in any region in this game, same goes for you guys naturally. No, no one would claim that you all are stalinist apologists, but again, same can be said about not all in KR being philonazis or fascists, far from it, KR seems like a big roleplaying region, unlike regions like the Internationale, which takes ideological matters seriously.

And here we go with the Stalin apologism nonsense. You do realize you sound like the guys claiming that death camp victims were photoshopped by the NKVD and whatever? Stalin was a bloody monster, mass murderer and tyrant.

NE is not an equivalent in this scenario. The clue is in the name.