[PASSED] Liberate KAISERREICH

[Sarakart]

1st Amendment doesn't apply to private organizations, especially not the metagame in a browser game, where no speech of any kind is being restricted.

I'm not saying you're not allowed somehow to do it, I'm saying that you doing it would go against principles I support.

The ideals of the first amendment have nothing to do with a mechanical decision in a browser game. At no point did Washington or Jefferson sit down and think, "how do we ensure that this defense of a free and civil society applies to regions in a browser game? Also, what do you think about Francoism?" I mean, maybe Franklin did, but the guy was as high as the kites in his experiment and can't be used for the basis of principles here.

[Jar Wattinree]

Scansinia won't leave, also 1st Amendment. No support

Great!

Just one problem: NationStates is a privately owned website by an Australian, not the United States' Government. The government of Australia also doesn't explicitly protect freedom of speech like the USA does.

I'm not saying you're not allowed somehow to do it, I'm saying that you doing it would go against principles I support.

The ideals of the first amendment have nothing to do with a mechanical decision in a browser game. At no point did Washington or Jefferson sit down and think, "how do we ensure that this defense of a free and civil society applies to regions in a browser game? Also, what do you think about Francoism?" I mean, maybe Franklin did, but the guy was as high as the kites in his experiment and can't be used for the basis of principles here.

The lightning must have shaken his wits instead of stirring them.

[Kavagrad]

1st Amendment doesn't apply to private organizations, especially not the metagame in a browser game, where no speech of any kind is being restricted.

I'm not saying you're not allowed somehow to do it, I'm saying that you doing it would go against principles I support.

Who's stopping them from speaking?

[The Great-German Empire]

Who's stopping them from speaking?

You would be preventing their free expression by pressuring their region to be conquered as soon as the founder leaves.

Great!

Just one problem: NationStates is a privately owned website by an Australian, not the United States' Government. The government of Australia also doesn't explicitly protect freedom of speech like the USA does.

Correct. You know what else is correct? That you are completely allowed to do this. And I'm allowed not to support you doing this.

The ideals of the first amendment have nothing to do with a mechanical decision in a browser game. At no point did Washington or Jefferson sit down and think, "how do we ensure that this defense of a free and civil society applies to regions in a browser game? Also, what do you think about Francoism?" I mean, maybe Franklin did, but the guy was as high as the kites in his experiment and can't be used for the basis of principles here.

First off, when 2nd Amendment advocates said that applying the 2nd Amendment only to muskets is like applying free speech only to the mouth and the printing press, they didn't want you to actually take that suggestion seriously.

And second, KR express themselves through this browser game. I'd say that since their conduct
And ideology haven't yet been punished similarly by the mods themselves, it's unjustified to abuse a normally-legitimate browser game mechanic to wreck their conversation space.

Finally, again, I'm not obliged to support this legally, by site rules or morally. These people to me are just normal people, and I see no reason to disturb them.

[Kavagrad]

Who's stopping them from speaking?

You would be preventing their free expression by pressuring their region to be conquered as soon as the founder leaves.

That doesn't answer my question at all. Who's stopping them from speaking? If it goes against freedom of speech, surely you need to prove that it actually stops them from speaking?

[The Great-German Empire]

That doesn't answer my question at all. Who's stopping them from speaking? If it goes against freedom of speech, surely you need to prove that it actually stops them from speaking?

It's not. But for how they are speaking, they are being discriminated against in this system. Granted, it's completely legal for a private venture to regulate speech on its platform, or (as in this case) allow its users to do so; And it is also a very minor setback for them as they can just found a new region; But for me, it's the principle of the thing. If I owned a restaurant and someone started shouting fascist slogans, I'd ask them to keep the noise down. Once they were back to an acceptable volume, I'd allow them to say whatever - despite fascism being abhorrent to me.

[West Leas Oros]

Acknowledging that liberating KAISERREICH, which has built its reputation on lies and falsehoods as well as attempting to eliminate ideologies different than theirs, will leave the region open to invasion after its founder leaves
Has the SC turned Hypocrite? Oh, they're destroying opposing ideologies! LETS GO DESTROY IDEOLOGIES WE OPPOSE!

[Sarakart]

That doesn't answer my question at all. Who's stopping them from speaking? If it goes against freedom of speech, surely you need to prove that it actually stops them from speaking?

It's not. But for how they are speaking, they are being discriminated against in this system. Granted, it's completely legal for a private venture to regulate speech on its platform, or (as in this case) allow its users to do so; And it is also a very minor setback for them as they can just found a new region; But for me, it's the principle of the thing. If I owned a restaurant and someone started shouting fascist slogans, I'd ask them to keep the noise down. Once they were back to an acceptable volume, I'd allow them to say whatever - despite fascism being abhorrent to me.

Do you oppose all raiding?

[Kavagrad]

That doesn't answer my question at all. Who's stopping them from speaking? If it goes against freedom of speech, surely you need to prove that it actually stops them from speaking?

It's not. But for how they are speaking, they are being discriminated against in this system. Granted, it's completely legal for a private venture to regulate speech on its platform, or (as in this case) allow its users to do so; And it is also a very minor setback for them as they can just found a new region; But for me, it's the principle of the thing. If I owned a restaurant and someone started shouting fascist slogans, I'd ask them to keep the noise down. Once they were back to an acceptable volume, I'd allow them to say whatever - despite fascism being abhorrent to me.

That's taking an assumption that all Fascists are polite enough to stop shouting their slogans just because you asked nicely. What if they don't? What if they kick up a fuss about it, even when the evidence is coming directly from their own mouths? Do you take a more direct approach at that point, for the sake of everyone else in said restaurant?

[The Great-German Empire]

Acknowledging that liberating KAISERREICH, which has built its reputation on lies and falsehoods as well as attempting to eliminate ideologies different than theirs, will leave the region open to invasion after its founder leaves
Has the SC turned Hypocrite? Oh, they're destroying opposing ideologies! LETS GO DESTROY IDEOLOGIES WE OPPOSE!

What's worse, they don't usually do that. They are often in conflict with Communist raider regions, rival empires and satiric pseudo-feminist regions (with whom they'd once ally to fight somebody else) but that's pretty much it.

[The Great-German Empire]

It's not. But for how they are speaking, they are being discriminated against in this system. Granted, it's completely legal for a private venture to regulate speech on its platform, or (as in this case) allow its users to do so; And it is also a very minor setback for them as they can just found a new region; But for me, it's the principle of the thing. If I owned a restaurant and someone started shouting fascist slogans, I'd ask them to keep the noise down. Once they were back to an acceptable volume, I'd allow them to say whatever - despite fascism being abhorrent to me.

That's taking an assumption that all Fascists are polite enough to stop shouting their slogans just because you asked nicely. What if they don't? What if they kick up a fuss about it, even when the evidence is coming directly from their own mouths? Do you take a more direct approach at that point, for the sake of everyone else in said restaurant?

Oh, but of course. They're violating other rules at this point. But is this applicable to KR? The only thing they're making a fuss about is someone attempting to kick them out pre-emplively.

[West Leas Oros]

It's not. But for how they are speaking, they are being discriminated against in this system. Granted, it's completely legal for a private venture to regulate speech on its platform, or (as in this case) allow its users to do so; And it is also a very minor setback for them as they can just found a new region; But for me, it's the principle of the thing. If I owned a restaurant and someone started shouting fascist slogans, I'd ask them to keep the noise down. Once they were back to an acceptable volume, I'd allow them to say whatever - despite fascism being abhorrent to me.

That's taking an assumption that all Fascists are polite enough to stop shouting their slogans just because you asked nicely. What if they don't? What if they kick up a fuss about it, even when the evidence is coming directly from their own mouths? Do you take a more direct approach at that point, for the sake of everyone else in said restaurant?

No. You don't. If you asked nicely and failed, then ask in a more assertive manner. Anything beyond that is likely criminal and immoral.

[Jar Wattinree]

Acknowledging that liberating KAISERREICH, which has built its reputation on lies and falsehoods as well as attempting to eliminate ideologies different than theirs, will leave the region open to invasion after its founder leaves
Has the SC turned Hypocrite? Oh, they're destroying opposing ideologies! LETS GO DESTROY IDEOLOGIES WE OPPOSE!

*regions, not ideologies. KAISERREICH is a region that unfortunately has been polluted with the fascist ideology, thus the Liberation.

[The Great-German Empire]

Do you oppose all raiding?

I do not, but I oppose raising being legitimized by the SC because that region's a bit of a meanie and is anti-communist.

[West Leas Oros]

Acknowledging that liberating KAISERREICH, which has built its reputation on lies and falsehoods as well as attempting to eliminate ideologies different than theirs, will leave the region open to invasion after its founder leaves
Has the SC turned Hypocrite? Oh, they're destroying opposing ideologies! LETS GO DESTROY IDEOLOGIES WE OPPOSE!

What's worse, they don't usually do that. They are often in conflict with Communist raider regions, rival empires and satiric pseudo-feminist regions (with whom they'd once ally to fight somebody else) but that's pretty much it.

"conflict".

I doubt they are little more than pawns to such regions. Afraid to take action in fear of being considered fascist.

[West Leas Oros]

Acknowledging that liberating KAISERREICH, which has built its reputation on lies and falsehoods as well as attempting to eliminate ideologies different than theirs, will leave the region open to invasion after its founder leaves
Has the SC turned Hypocrite? Oh, they're destroying opposing ideologies! LETS GO DESTROY IDEOLOGIES WE OPPOSE!

*regions, not ideologies. KAISERREICH is a region that unfortunately has been polluted with the fascist ideology, thus the Liberation.

I see. So you support your form of totalitarian dictatorship over theirs?

[The Great-German Empire]

"conflict".

I doubt they are little more than pawns to such regions. Afraid to take action in fear of being considered fascist.

I'd dispute that. They've done some pretty great raiding campaigns back when I was gameplay-focused, on a different nation and in their ranks. However, that's still no grounds for mislabeling them or sanctioning their annihilation internationally.

[Jar Wattinree]

*regions, not ideologies. KAISERREICH is a region that unfortunately has been polluted with the fascist ideology, thus the Liberation.

I see. So you support your form of totalitarian dictatorship over theirs?

Define totalitarian dictatorship. If you're trying to equivocate the World Assembly to an ideology that has caused misery and suffering for millions of people, there must have been some mistake in translation some time ago, including the fact that on a browser based web game you can do anything and not be oppressed at all.

[Kavagrad]

That's taking an assumption that all Fascists are polite enough to stop shouting their slogans just because you asked nicely. What if they don't? What if they kick up a fuss about it, even when the evidence is coming directly from their own mouths? Do you take a more direct approach at that point, for the sake of everyone else in said restaurant?

Oh, but of course. They're violating other rules at this point. But is this applicable to KR? The only thing they're making a fuss about is someone attempting to kick them out pre-emplively.

Let's go through the (admittedly short) checklist.

Refusing to stop their behaviour - Their leaders have done nothing to stop the stream of Nazi filth that plagues their Discord server.

Refusing to admit that they're behaving this way, despite the evidence being put to them - See comments from KR members in this thread.

Is it not clear? They're doing exactly what you say would require a direct approach, and this is a direct approach.

[The Great-German Empire]

Define totalitarian dictatorship. If you're trying to equivocate the World Assembly to an ideology that has caused misery and suffering for millions of people, there must have been some mistake in translation some time ago, including the fact that on a browser based web game you can do anything and not be oppressed at all.

If there is no totalitarianism here, why are you so uppity about fascism in the first place? It can't do any harm in this 'browser based web game'.

[Kavagrad]

That's taking an assumption that all Fascists are polite enough to stop shouting their slogans just because you asked nicely. What if they don't? What if they kick up a fuss about it, even when the evidence is coming directly from their own mouths? Do you take a more direct approach at that point, for the sake of everyone else in said restaurant?

No. You don't. If you asked nicely and failed, then ask in a more assertive manner. Anything beyond that is likely criminal and immoral.

And that is where our fundamental disagreement lies. You would let their actions go unpunished. That, as far as I'm concerned, is immoral, if not criminal.

[West Leas Oros]

Oh, but of course. They're violating other rules at this point. But is this applicable to KR? The only thing they're making a fuss about is someone attempting to kick them out pre-emplively.

Let's go through the (admittedly short) checklist.

Refusing to stop their behaviour - Their leaders have done nothing to stop the stream of Nazi filth that plagues their Discord server.

Refusing to admit that they're behaving this way, despite the evidence being put to them - See comments from KR members in this thread.

Is it not clear? They're doing exactly what you say would require a direct approach, and this is a direct approach.

I would say that even Nazi are technically protected under free speech laws. How would you like someone if they called your speech "communist Filth"?

[West Leas Oros]

No. You don't. If you asked nicely and failed, then ask in a more assertive manner. Anything beyond that is likely criminal and immoral.

And that is where our fundamental disagreement lies. You would let their actions go unpunished. That, as far as I'm concerned, is immoral, if not criminal.

How are their actions immoral? because they disagree with you.

[Scansinia]

So in a sense, I could just password the region when I know I will be gone for a while, such as for military training purposes etc.

[The Great-German Empire]

Let's go through the (admittedly short) checklist.

Refusing to stop their behaviour - Their leaders have done nothing to stop the stream of Nazi filth that plagues their Discord server.

Refusing to admit that they're behaving this way, despite the evidence being put to them - See comments from KR members in this thread.

Is it not clear? They're doing exactly what you say would require a direct approach, and this is a direct approach.

Problem is, their members are doing it on discord. That's not like yelling in a restaurant, that's like texting in a restaurant. I'd not deny a customer the opportunity to text.

Basically, in this case what really is happening is that the NS game player community at large is trying to force KR to censor their discord or perish. Not only do they have no obligation to lay down censorship in the first place, they have even less of an obligation to do so on a whole different and arguably unrelated platform.