[ABANDONED] Repeal Commend The Red Fleet

[Caelapes]

http://udl.taijitu.org/wfe_index/?congr ... 2014-11-01

Wonder why Slavija is listed here?

I've been a member of Slavija/Slavya in its various incarnations since starting to play NS in 2012. I can genuinely say that I've never seen Slavija/Slavya as a region actively participate in R/D in any way (there are individual members that to, but they do so with other regions/orgs); even when the Slavic Co-Operation Pact was actively opposing the UIAF over the invasion of Slavia Slavya played little to no part in its military operations.

In addition, of the major Slavic regions, Slavija/Slavya was always less communist/leftist-leaning than Slavia thanks to their lack of nostalgic Tito-loving Serbs and I find it difficult to believe that they would've participated in a military op with a region like the Communist Bloc. Slavia had some degree of military cooperation with some leftist regions but Slavya/Slavija never did.

That said, I admit that I was inactive at the time of this raid and I wasn't active on NS at all but I find it mind-boggling that Slavija/Slavya would have willingly participated in R/D at all. Are you sure you aren't conflating the various R/D-active members of Slavija/Slavia (particularly Luksusowa/Vandoosa and Kleomentia) with the region as a whole?

We didn’t put Slavija’s name on their victory WFE.

You say yourself that you weren’t active when this happened, so how is what you’ve said relevant to the fact that they assisted Libertatem and pals in destroying a peaceful interregional congress region?

And how do you think we are able to train our sailors and officers for the level of expertise and professionalism required to execute precision military operations against Nazi regions? Tag raids are not the end goal of The Red Fleet - it's what allows us to continue to pursue our primary mission at the high level for which we were commended.

Tag raids also provoke conflicts with other regions, which when they respond, gives you an excuse to attack their embassies. The Red Fleets entire foreign policy seems to be designed to provoke conflict in this way. It may not be enough to condemn TRF but it isn't commendable.

Again, people who know nothing about The Red Fleet come out of the woodwork to pretend to be experts on our policy.

We added REATO and its embarrassingly ineffective spiritual successor, Anticom, to our enemies list in response to attacks they had engaged in against leftist regions. The primary target of The Red Fleet has always been and will always be fascists and Nazis. It’s not a coincidence that, with REATO and Anticom falling into inactivity, our recent operations have not targeted capitalist-themed regions.

[The North Polish Union]

I've been a member of Slavija/Slavya in its various incarnations since starting to play NS in 2012. I can genuinely say that I've never seen Slavija/Slavya as a region actively participate in R/D in any way (there are individual members that to, but they do so with other regions/orgs); even when the Slavic Co-Operation Pact was actively opposing the UIAF over the invasion of Slavia Slavya played little to no part in its military operations.

In addition, of the major Slavic regions, Slavija/Slavya was always less communist/leftist-leaning than Slavia thanks to their lack of nostalgic Tito-loving Serbs and I find it difficult to believe that they would've participated in a military op with a region like the Communist Bloc. Slavia had some degree of military cooperation with some leftist regions but Slavya/Slavija never did.

That said, I admit that I was inactive at the time of this raid and I wasn't active on NS at all but I find it mind-boggling that Slavija/Slavya would have willingly participated in R/D at all. Are you sure you aren't conflating the various R/D-active members of Slavija/Slavia (particularly Luksusowa/Vandoosa and Kleomentia) with the region as a whole?

We didn’t put Slavija’s name on their victory WFE.

You say yourself that you weren’t active when this happened, so how is what you’ve said relevant to the fact that they assisted Libertatem and pals in destroying a peaceful interregional congress region?

IMO it's relevant because I have as much knowledge of Slavya/Slavija as anyone in this game and for them to raid (or even defend) anyone is incredibly out of character.

They never participated in R/D when I was around before 2014 and they aren't participating in it now at a regional level. Do they just magically become a GP region when I go inactive?

Again, if this was Slavia we were talking about I would have no trouble accepting your narrative; but its Slavija we're talking about and I have never known anyone from Slavya/Slavija to advocate for that region having any sort of regional GP engagement. There are a couple rather prominent raiders active in Slavija but I have never (in about 5 years in the region, give or take some time for inactivity) seen any of them attempt to use their GP affiliation to mobilize Slavija as updaters or pilers.

[Caelapes]

I don’t know who specifically from Slavija was involved or what the region’s previous stance toward GP was. Frankly, it doesn’t matter. Enough folks from Slavija participated and represented themselves to Libertatem and the other raid organizers as participating on behalf of Slavija, and that’s how they were recorded in the raid WFE against Congress of Armed Proletarian States—which was Liberated by this Security Council as a result of their raid.

[United Massachusetts]

I'm going to have to go out and say, I'm sorry. There were some innacuracies in here. My research wasn't perfect. But I stand by my opinion that TRF is far from commendable, given their history of targetting capitalist regions, albeit not lately. And I still do think that such targetting has taken the form of far more than raids. And I'd be happy to re walk-through the Right to Life incident with you--every other CAIN member agreed that we were an embassy collector--which we are, as we never turn down embassy requests. TRF then proceeded to lie about their reasons for doing so, even after our Founder attempted to respond to your critiques. And I'd also point out the Fleet's involvement in the false labelling of KAISERREICH, a German monarchist region which has publicly condemned Nazism, as Nazis.

I'm afraid I'm sick today, so I don't have the energy to respond fully. But I'll redraft, because I care about accuracy.

This is something I never thought I'd say: thanks, Misley. Thanks for coming here to defend yourself. I still don't approve of the Fleet, but I want to be fair.

[Aelbarrow]

I don’t know who specifically from Slavija was involved or what the region’s previous stance toward GP was. Frankly, it doesn’t matter. Enough folks from Slavija participated and represented themselves to Libertatem and the other raid organizers as participating on behalf of Slavija, and that’s how they were recorded in the raid WFE against Congress of Armed Proletarian States—which was Liberated by this Security Council as a result of their raid.

The World Assembly Delegation of the LKE concurs with this assessment of Slavija.

[Northwest Kalactin]

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Repeal Commend The Red Fleet
Category: Repeal | Target: SC#184 | Proposed by: United Massachusetts

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The Security Council:

Understanding that no moral equivalency should be made between the Nazis' gospel of hate and those who fight against it, including the Red Fleet,

Remembering, however, that not all who fight Nazis are autmatically commendable--one noble aspect of a region ought not to overshadow other, more unscrupulous actions,

Appalled that the Red Fleet has broken its own "policy" on many occassions by, despite what SC#184 claims, invading capitalist regions not in any way affiliated with fascists or regional enemies, these invasions including but not limited to those of:

• United States 0f America, a politically-neutral region not affiliated in anyway with interregional politics, which was targeted merely for having embassies with a member of NSRight, and the subsequent mocking of the innocent residents thereof,
• New Republica, yet another invasion conducted against a region neither fascist nor involved in interregional politics, which was targetted merely for its embassy with Libertatem,
• Slavija, for the same reason listed above,

Distressed by the Fleet's usage of its influence in CAIN to pursue hypocritical, radical ends and to label its ideological opponents, such as Right to Life, as Nazi collaborators, ignoring its embassy collector status, as well as its involvement in the destruction of NAZI EUROPE,

Believing that it has, therefore, devolved lately to merely be an anti-capitalist region, contrary to the claims of SC#184, and has used its commendation to justify attacks on innocent, neutral regions,

Declaring that the global fight against Nazism ought to involve those from across the political spectrum, a goal which the Fleet has apparently ignored in its pursuit of radical, violent ends,

Understanding that tolerance is a two-way street,

Lauding the anti-fascist actions undertaken by The Red Fleet, and declaring these actions commendable, a designation which ought not to be applied to the organization on the whole,

Hereby Repeals Security Council Resolution #184, Commend The Red Fleet.

I will tell my regional WA Rep. to vote for this resolution I support this Idea

[Kylia Quilor]

The Red Fleet should never have been commended to begin with. All for this.

[The Stalker]

And I'd also point out the Fleet's involvement in the false labelling of KAISERREICH, a German monarchist region which has publicly condemned Nazism, as Nazis.

False? KAISERREICH's leadership regularly uses Nazi imagery on their nations and forum. The region works with Nazi Europa, has embassies with them, and is in an alliance with them and a bunch of other fascists/Nazi regions. https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=738771

[Mushat]

Since you ask, I don't like the use of "reminding" to begin clauses. It sounds juvenile, though I'm not sure why. /personal preference

The Commonwealth does need reminding as delegates would receive lots of information, follows forum posts.....so over time. Reminding is required especially when the commonwealth had voted one way and not expecting a repeal to appear.

However if this repeal is put to the vote, the commonwealth will vote against under the principle of a vote. Yes or no and there has to be a loser rather than a loser crying in the corner then submitting repeal posts days after the original vote.

[Cheeksam]

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Repeal Commend The Red Fleet
Category: Repeal | Target: SC#184 | Proposed by: United Massachusetts

---

The Security Council:

Understanding that no moral equivalency should be made between the Nazis' gospel of hate and those who fight against it, including the Red Fleet,

Remembering, however, that not all who fight Nazis are autmatically commendable--one noble aspect of a region ought not to overshadow other, more unscrupulous actions,

Appalled that the Red Fleet has broken its own "policy" on many occassions by, despite what SC#184 claims, invading capitalist regions not in any way affiliated with fascists or regional enemies, these invasions including but not limited to those of:

• United States 0f America, a politically-neutral region not affiliated in anyway with interregional politics, which was targeted merely for having embassies with a member of NSRight, and the subsequent mocking of the innocent residents thereof,
• New Republica, yet another invasion conducted against a region neither fascist nor involved in interregional politics, which was targetted merely for its embassy with Libertatem,
• Slavija, for the same reason listed above,

Distressed by the Fleet's usage of its influence in CAIN to pursue hypocritical, radical ends and to label its ideological opponents, such as Right to Life, as Nazi collaborators, ignoring its embassy collector status, as well as its involvement in the destruction of NAZI EUROPE,

Believing that it has, therefore, devolved lately to merely be an anti-capitalist region, contrary to the claims of SC#184, and has used its commendation to justify attacks on innocent, neutral regions,

Declaring that the global fight against Nazism ought to involve those from across the political spectrum, a goal which the Fleet has apparently ignored in its pursuit of radical, violent ends,

Understanding that tolerance is a two-way street,

Lauding the anti-fascist actions undertaken by The Red Fleet, and declaring these actions commendable, a designation which ought not to be applied to the organization on the whole,

Hereby Repeals Security Council Resolution #184, Commend The Red Fleet.

You should mention on how TRF does not allow ideologies to co-ezist.

[Fauxia]

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Repeal Commend The Red Fleet
Category: Repeal | Target: SC#184 | Proposed by: United Massachusetts

---

The Security Council:

Understanding that no moral equivalency should be made between the Nazis' gospel of hate and those who fight against it, including the Red Fleet,

Remembering, however, that not all who fight Nazis are autmatically commendable--one noble aspect of a region ought not to overshadow other, more unscrupulous actions,

Appalled that the Red Fleet has broken its own "policy" on many occassions by, despite what SC#184 claims, invading capitalist regions not in any way affiliated with fascists or regional enemies, these invasions including but not limited to those of:

• United States 0f America, a politically-neutral region not affiliated in anyway with interregional politics, which was targeted merely for having embassies with a member of NSRight, and the subsequent mocking of the innocent residents thereof,
• New Republica, yet another invasion conducted against a region neither fascist nor involved in interregional politics, which was targetted merely for its embassy with Libertatem,
• Slavija, for the same reason listed above,

Distressed by the Fleet's usage of its influence in CAIN to pursue hypocritical, radical ends and to label its ideological opponents, such as Right to Life, as Nazi collaborators, ignoring its embassy collector status, as well as its involvement in the destruction of NAZI EUROPE,

Believing that it has, therefore, devolved lately to merely be an anti-capitalist region, contrary to the claims of SC#184, and has used its commendation to justify attacks on innocent, neutral regions,

Declaring that the global fight against Nazism ought to involve those from across the political spectrum, a goal which the Fleet has apparently ignored in its pursuit of radical, violent ends,

Understanding that tolerance is a two-way street,

Lauding the anti-fascist actions undertaken by The Red Fleet, and declaring these actions commendable, a designation which ought not to be applied to the organization on the whole,

Hereby Repeals Security Council Resolution #184, Commend The Red Fleet.

You should mention on how TRF does not allow ideologies to co-ezist.

They allow ideologies to co-exist as long as they aren’t capitalist or authoritarian on the civil axis

[The North Polish Union]

You should mention on how TRF does not allow ideologies to co-ezist.

They allow ideologies to co-exist as long as they aren’t capitalist or authoritarian on the civil axis

So they don't allow ideologies to coexist.

[Caelapes]

oh hey it’s another fun round of “people who have no idea about The Red Fleet talking as though they have any authority on Fleet policy”

[Fauxia]

oh hey it’s another fun round of “people who have no idea about The Red Fleet talking as though they have any authority on Fleet policy”

TRF’s policies are basically irrelevant. All you have to know is their actions.

[Consular]

And I'd also point out the Fleet's involvement in the false labelling of KAISERREICH, a German monarchist region which has publicly condemned Nazism, as Nazis.

Oh my god is that what this is about? Jesus fucking christ.

Ambassador Faber leaned back in his chair, mildly exasperated.

Honestly I'm actually not even surprised.

False? KAISERREICH's leadership regularly uses Nazi imagery on their nations and forum. The region works with Nazi Europa, has embassies with them, and is in an alliance with them and a bunch of other fascists/Nazi regions. https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=738771

I wonder if, years from now, we'll still have to watch these people deny the obvious.

Understanding that tolerance is a two-way street,

Urgh. Think I might have thrown up in my mouth a little there.

[Fauxia]

I’ll have to agree with Consular and Stalker here. KAISERREICH isn’t nazi, but their actions don’t really dispel the claims that they are, considering they work with Nazi Europa and, indeed, use nazi imagery. I don’t believe they are actually nazi, but they don’t care to stop doing the stupid things they’ve done that point that direction.

[United Massachusetts]

And I'd also point out the Fleet's involvement in the false labelling of KAISERREICH, a German monarchist region which has publicly condemned Nazism, as Nazis.

False? KAISERREICH's leadership regularly uses Nazi imagery on their nations and forum. The region works with Nazi Europa, has embassies with them, and is in an alliance with them and a bunch of other fascists/Nazi regions. https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=738771

Or you could listen to what their leadership have been saying the whole time--that they condemn Nazism and are not Nazi. You cannot call a region that is publicly opposed to Nazism as being Nazi.

[Caelapes]

yeah but people who oppose Nazis and Nazism don’t tend to join the most prominent Nazi region in the game in a Nazi alliance named for the real-life fascist alliance created by Nazi Germany

[Fauxia]

False? KAISERREICH's leadership regularly uses Nazi imagery on their nations and forum. The region works with Nazi Europa, has embassies with them, and is in an alliance with them and a bunch of other fascists/Nazi regions. https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=738771

Or you could listen to what their leadership have been saying the whole time--that they condemn Nazism and are not Nazi. You cannot call a region that is publicly opposed to Nazism as being Nazi.

People may be what they claim not to be

[Consular]

You cannot call a region that is publicly opposed to Nazism as being Nazi.

Oh but I can, and I will.

[The Stalker]

How can you condemn Nazis, but also work with them, have embassies, an alliance, and use Nazi images?

Lol, I mean really that is just nonsensical.

If they close embassies, end their alliance, and stop using Nazi imagry I might believe them.

[Queen Yuno]

I'm so against this.

You have a contradictionary rep yourself, OP.

[Caelapes]

oh hey it’s another fun round of “people who have no idea about The Red Fleet talking as though they have any authority on Fleet policy”

TRF’s policies are basically irrelevant. All you have to know is their actions.

maybe other organizations don't follow their policies, but The Red Fleet's actions reinforce our policies, which we have made public.

[Fauxia]

TRF’s policies are basically irrelevant. All you have to know is their actions.

maybe other organizations don't follow their policies, but The Red Fleet's actions reinforce our policies, which we have made public.

You didn’t read my point. My point wasn’t that TRF doesn’t follow their policies, my point was that their policies were irrelevant. That said, while I support this, I don’t think this has enough info to pass.

[Caelapes]

maybe other organizations don't follow their policies, but The Red Fleet's actions reinforce our policies, which we have made public.

You didn’t read my point. My point wasn’t that TRF doesn’t follow their policies, my point was that their policies were irrelevant. That said, while I support this, I don’t think this has enough info to pass.

Except that our policies definitely are relevant, because SC#184 "Commend The Red Fleet" made a point of acknowledging that, while The Red Fleet is a leftist military, we "maintain a policy of not targeting capitalist regions that are not themselves aligned with aggressive raiders" and the central argument of this proposal is that we have broken our policy.

We haven't, and this resolution is incredibly weak because of our commitment to our policies - our actions reinforce our words.