[Abandoned] Repeal "Condemn The Black Hawks" (SC #52)

[RiderSyl]

NOTING that The Black Hawks are already Condemned by this esteemed body under SC #217.

BELIEVING with an updated and more effective Condemnation of The Black Hawks under SC #217, SC #52 is no longer necessary and should be removed from record.

DISGUSTED that The Black Hawks being Condemned twice by this body has been and is being exploited in raider propaganda, recruitment, and maintaining morale.

REALIZING that The Black Hawks cannot benefit from the outdated Condemnation if it is removed.

REASSURING The World that despite the recent lull in quality proposals, this esteemed body will always seek to protect innocents from invaders.

HEREBY REPEALS: SC #52 "Condemn The Black Hawks"

So, I feel like this should really be a symbolic gesture more than anything else. The Security Council hasn't been at its best lately, but it's really time to remind people why it exists. No third Condemnation of TBH or trying to Condemn another raider region. No trying to commend a game-created region, or someone everyone seems to love. Just cleaning up after ourselves here.

This is a quick draft, made on almost no sleep. I'd really appreciate input on it.

Also, nothing personal TBH. Still love ya guys.

EDIT: Points taken. I'm abandoning this one.

[Kurnugia]

NOTING that The Black Hawks are already Condemned by this esteemed body under SC #217.

BELIEVING with an updated and more effective Condemnation of The Black Hawks under SC #217, SC #52 is no longer necessary and should be removed from record.

DISGUSTED that The Black Hawks being Condemned twice by this body has been and is being exploited in raider propaganda, recruitment, and maintaining morale.

REALIZING that The Black Hawks cannot benefit from the outdated Condemnation if it is removed.

REASSURING The World that despite the recent lull in quality proposals, this esteemed body will always seek to protect innocents from invaders.

HEREBY REPEALS: SC #52 "Condemn The Black Hawks"

So, I feel like this should really be a symbolic gesture more than anything else. The Security Council hasn't been at its best lately, but it's really time to remind people why it exists. No third Condemnation of TBH or trying to Condemn another raider region. No trying to commend a game-created region, or someone everyone seems to love. Just cleaning up after ourselves here.

This is a quick draft, made on almost no sleep. I'd really appreciate input on it.

Also, nothing personal TBH. Still love ya guys.

Well SC #52 is historical. Was the First Condemnation for raiding. Plus we should "congratulate" TBH for 10 years of misdeeds.

[Jakker]

While I recognize your desire to "remind people why it exists," this attempt is misguided. It would seem that you are wanting to repeal this because you believe that TBH do not deserve two condemnations.

As Max said when the SC started, "A Commendation expresses the World Assembly's warm support and approval for the nation or region in question; a Condemnation, its outrage and dismay. Either way, the recipient is branded with the graphic you see above, ensuring their fame (or infamy) is broadcast for all to see. And, of course, exactly when and why these Resolutions should be employed is a matter for World Assembly members."

I agree with you that condemnations should not be given to all raiders because they raid. In fact, the most recent repeal of Condemn Canterlot shows that people agree there. However, as people have already argued previously, TBH have two condemnations for a reason. Both tell a whole story that needs to remain. Below is a post I made earlier in regards to why this resolution should not be repealed. It is my belief that if this resolution is repealed, it will hurt the SC more than anything else.

You are losing sight of the significance of #52. Let me draw from posts in the voting thread of that exact resolution to show you the historical importance of #52 and its vast differences to the condemnation at vote.

In regards to the importance of #52, check out these posts:
viewtopic.php?p=5255544#p5255544
viewtopic.php?p=5264549#p5264549

TBH was the first region to be condemned for raiding. As EW notes in the second link, "this was less a shot to TBH themselves and more a direct snipe against raiding in general. There was nothing mentioned in that Condemn that every single Crasher group in NS doesn't also do." The proposal was written to target raiding as a whole and the author chose TBH as raiding's symbol.

Furthermore, several defenders and Mikeswill voted for the condemnation. Those things do not happen, but they did for a reason. At that moment, this resolution mattered.

In regards to its similarity to the current condemnation:
The two resolutions are completely different not only because of what I discussed above, but also because TBH was perceived as a different region back then. As you can see from these posts:
viewtopic.php?p=5211686#p5211686
viewtopic.php?p=5223198#p5223198
viewtopic.php?p=5242777#p5242777

These posts show that around that time, TBH was known for its tag raiding, which is a different perception than today. As you can see from the current resolution, virtually every point touches upon TBH's shift to hitting larging targets and overall large-scale events. Simply because there are two condemnations does not mean that the first is "irrelevant" at all.

In conclusion, your point that condemnations are viewed as a point of pride does not matter. It was a thing back then too. When there is no effect besides a badge, that is what happens. The only point that I will give you is that the proposal is not well-written. Everyone knows that. People knew that back then, but it still passed. There is such much more beyond the words that trying to repeal this condemnation is erasing a significant part of SC history.

[Benevolent Thomas]

Too much TBH content in the SC. I don't care to hear what the intent is, I will vote against. I'm tired of this constant discussion of TBH between the various raider flavors of the week. Thank [violet] that we don't have to see "Lets Condemn TBR/DEN" every goddamn week anymore. Let them have two stinking badges, the SC has rendered them totally worthless anyway.

[Cerian Quilor]

Too much TBH content in the SC. I don't care to hear what the intent is, I will vote against. I'm tired of this constant discussion of TBH between the various raider flavors of the week. Thank [violet] that we don't have to see "Lets Condemn TBR/DEN" every goddamn week anymore. Let them have two stinking badges, the SC has rendered them totally worthless anyway.

They weren't 'rendered' worthless. They were always worthless.

[Jakker]

Too much TBH content in the SC. I don't care to hear what the intent is, I will vote against. I'm tired of this constant discussion of TBH between the various raider flavors of the week. Thank [violet] that we don't have to see "Lets Condemn TBR/DEN" every goddamn week anymore. Let them have two stinking badges, the SC has rendered them totally worthless anyway.

Awww there there BT. Here's some caramel to suck on. It'll go well with all of that salt.

[Benevolent Thomas]

Awww there there BT. Here's some caramel to suck on. It'll go well with all of that salt.

I know it is salty as all hell, but I stand by it. Its annoying!

[NationHelper]

I see a proposal to condemn a raider region every week. All of them are crap, and most involve how that region has done bad to the nation proposing it.

[Jakker]

Awww there there BT. Here's some caramel to suck on. It'll go well with all of that salt.

I know it is salty as all hell, but I stand by it. Its annoying!

We can't help that we are so lovable.

[Cormactopia Prime]

As the co-author of SC#217, the second Condemn The Black Hawks, and as someone who had authored a repeal of SC#52 and abandoned it, there is a reason I did not attempt to repeal SC#52 as first planned. The reason is that the two condemnations are very different and cover much different ground, both in historical terms and in terms of The Black Hawks' raiding activities. SC#52 is of historical value not only to The Black Hawks, but to the Security Council and the NationStates gameplay world in general. SC#52 stands apart from SC#217, which is by no means a duplication of SC#52 but a follow-up covering The Black Hawks' additional actions in the intervening years that warranted further condemnation.

In other words, SC#217 is a sequel, not a remake, and SC#52 stands on its own as the original and should remain in place.

The Black Hawks have earned two condemnations, and this will not be, or at least should not be, the first time a player or a region is commended or condemned more than once for their gameplay activities as the years continue to pass but players and regions remain and continue to contribute. These resolutions should be about recognizing the contributions made by the "good guys" and "bad guys" of NationStates gameplay, and we should neither ignore further contributions nor erase recognition of past contributions to confine each player or region to an artificial limit of only one badge.

[Consular]

I agree with Cormac more or less.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

On the draft itself - it's fine as it is, though personally I think it could address a couple of the points raised in SC #52 in a little bit more detail.

On whether SC #52 should be repealed - both Jakker and Cormac make a good case for not repealing it, arguments I agree with.

[The Stalker]

Yea, I authored the second one to stand by the first. I think they have earned their second condemning, and in general I don't like seeing old resolutions repealed.

[Naginii]

They weren't 'rendered' worthless. They were always worthless.

This^^^
Giving a raider a condemn badge is like wrestling in the mud with a pig: you just get dirty and the pig has a great time.

[Cerian Quilor]

I agree with Cormac more or less.

That's such an eeire thing to say, but yeah, me too.

[Cormactopia Prime]

I agree with Cormac more or less.

That's such an eeire thing to say, but yeah, me too.

Sometimes I'm reasonable just to give my usual debate opponents the heebie-jeebies for agreeing with me.

[Cerian Quilor]

That's such an eeire thing to say, but yeah, me too.

Sometimes I'm reasonable just to give my usual debate opponents the heebie-jeebies for agreeing with me.

Rule of Acquisition #76: Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses the hell out of your enemies.

[Honeydewistan]

So, I feel like this should really be a symbolic gesture more than anything else. The Security Council hasn't been at its best lately, but it's really time to remind people why it exists. No third Condemnation of TBH or trying to Condemn another raider region. No trying to commend a game-created region, or someone everyone seems to love. Just cleaning up after ourselves here.

This is a quick draft, made on almost no sleep. I'd really appreciate input on it.

Also, nothing personal TBH. Still love ya guys.

Well SC #52 is historical. Was the First Condemnation for raiding. Plus we should "congratulate" TBH for 10 years of misdeeds.

Actually, COndemn Unknown was the first condemnation for Forum Destruction. Historical, right? But......
ITS REPEALED. Most people don't give a damn about 'Historical' resolutions.

[Tinhampton]

Well SC #52 is historical. Was the First Condemnation for raiding. Plus we should "congratulate" TBH for 10 years of misdeeds.

Actually, COndemn Unknown was the first condemnation for Forum Destruction. Historical, right? But......
ITS REPEALED. Most people don't give a damn about 'Historical' resolutions.

SC#73 "Condemn Allied States Of EuroIslanders" still stands on the books today.

[The Stalker]

Most people don't give a damn about 'Historical' resolutions.

I give a damn, if you've played this game as long as I have maybe you would too. A lot of people have put time and effort into this game over the years, repealing old historic resolutions diminishes what was of the moment, there is no need to whitewash the past.