[DEFEATED] Liberate Illuminati

[Cormactopia Prime]

Liberate Illuminati
A resolution to strike down Delegate-imposed barriers to free entry in a region.

Category: Liberation | Nominee (region): Illuminati | Proposed by: Cormactopia Prime

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Description: The Security Council:

Observing that The Black Hawks, supported by a coalition of invader and imperialist forces, have invaded and occupied the region Illuminati, capitalizing upon the region's unpopularity in the hope that the interregional community will ignore their destructive aims;

Acknowledging that Illuminati has a troubled history, and that regional natives as well as foreign governments have legitimate grievances against its displaced regional government;

Conceding that intervention against the displaced regional government of Illuminati may be appropriate if requested by a significant portion of the native population, including natives forced from the region by said government;

Asserting that it would be preferable for such an intervention to be undertaken by a coalition reputable enough to be trusted with restoring native government after the intervention has concluded, rather than being conducted by invaders aiming to add Illuminati to their list of conquests and deprive its natives of democratic self-government, and perhaps prevent natives from returning to the region;

Declaring that it would be contrary to the mission statement of this Security Council to give tacit approval to the conquest of any region by invaders condemned by this very institution, except under the most grave and compelling circumstances, a litmus test this invasion and occupation does not pass;

Hereby Liberates Illuminati.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

capitalizing upon the region's unpopularity in hopes that the interregional community will turn a blind eye to their....

Maybe "in the hope that..."

[The Glitter Queen Aynia]

Observing that The Black Hawks, supported by a coalition of invader and imperialist regions, have invaded and occupied the region Illuminati, capitalizing upon the region's unpopularity in hopes that the interregional community will turn a blind eye to their destructive aims;

Hey now, Arda isn't imperialist or invader. We're more like... fun loving opportunists. Plus I mean don't turn a blind eye, at least acknowledge how awesome we all are.

[Unibot III]

The last three clauses are playing fast and loose with Rule III. I would say it's legal given past arguments suggest that the WA Army rule does not apply and that "the WA's long tradition of neutrality" was not elevated to law. The major test for legality is that these clauses can't be read as a strong, binding obligation, just an opinion or an encouragement.

If a clause will give you trouble, it'll be the "Asserting" clause: "Asserting that such a peacekeeping intervention should be undertaken by X rather than Y."

This is because 'should' in legalese can be read as either an expression of a preference or an obligation.

If the mods give you trouble, try something like:

Finding X to be preferable to Y in matters of peacekeeping intervention because Z;

It's a bit more informative and it can't be read as an obligation. I would also suggest defining peacekeeping. It's not a regularly used word in the context of gameplay.

[Cormactopia Prime]

capitalizing upon the region's unpopularity in hopes that the interregional community will turn a blind eye to their....

Maybe "in the hope that..."

Thanks! I'll correct that next time I revise the draft.

Hey now, Arda isn't imperialist or invader. We're more like... fun loving opportunists. Plus I mean don't turn a blind eye, at least acknowledge how awesome we all are.

Has Arda ever done any military operations that weren't invader?

The last three clauses are playing fast and loose with Rule III. I would say it's legal given past arguments suggest that the WA Army rule does not apply and that "the WA's long tradition of neutrality" was not elevated to law. The major test for legality is that these clauses can't be read as a strong, binding obligation, just an opinion or an encouragement.

If a clause will give you trouble, it'll be the "Asserting" clause: "Asserting that such a peacekeeping intervention should be undertaken by X rather than Y."

This is because 'should' in legalese can be read as either an expression of a preference or an obligation.

If the mods give you trouble, try something like:

Finding X to be preferable to Y in matters of peacekeeping intervention because Z;

It's a bit more informative and it can't be read as an obligation. I would also suggest defining peacekeeping. It's not a regularly used word in the context of gameplay.

Thanks, I'll take all those suggestions into account next time I revise, particularly the ones regarding potentially illegal clauses.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

Just a thought, but would the removal of the word "peacekeeping" sort out the potential R3 issues? The clauses could still be rewritten slightly to make sense.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Just a thought, but would the removal of the word "peacekeeping" sort out the potential R3 issues? The clauses could still be rewritten slightly to make sense.

I'm going to rewrite those clauses without the "peacekeeping" can of worms.

[LollerLand]

Observing that The Black Hawks, supported by a coalition of invader and imperialist regions, have invaded and occupied the region Illuminati, capitalizing upon the region's unpopularity in hopes that the interregional community will turn a blind eye to their destructive aims;

Hey now, Arda isn't imperialist or invader. We're more like... fun loving opportunists. Plus I mean don't turn a blind eye, at least acknowledge how awesome we all are.

Same with The Universal Allegiance

[Cormactopia Prime]

Hey now, Arda isn't imperialist or invader. We're more like... fun loving opportunists. Plus I mean don't turn a blind eye, at least acknowledge how awesome we all are.

Same with The Universal Allegiance

There is zero chance I'll be changing that. Sorry.

[LollerLand]

Same with The Universal Allegiance

There is zero chance I'll be changing that. Sorry.

That's understandable tbh
Invader and imperialist forces will sound more evil to the general NSer than 'invader, imperialist and fun loving people'

[Annomatniaptey]

This is funny, especially since there isn't even a password to enter the region

[Cerian Quilor]

There is zero chance I'll be changing that. Sorry.

That's understandable tbh
Invader and imperialist forces will sound more evil to the general NSer than 'invader, imperialist and fun loving people'

Also known as Cormac is playing fast and loose with the truth for a liberation.

So pretty much par for the course for most GP-based SC resolutions. On all sides.

[Cormactopia Prime]

This is funny, especially since there isn't even a password to enter the region

I noted in the OP that I'm not submitting this until The Black Hawks' intentions are more clear (though they're pretty clear already; Souls has admitted they intend to refound the region). That is also why I'm not in a tremendous hurry to get a new draft finished.

That's understandable tbh
Invader and imperialist forces will sound more evil to the general NSer than 'invader, imperialist and fun loving people'

Also known as Cormac is playing fast and loose with the truth for a liberation.

So pretty much par for the course for most GP-based SC resolutions. On all sides.

It isn't really that at all, it's that I'm not going to bother with the clutter of including everyone's custom-made labels (independent, non-aligned, unaligned, "fun loving" [that's a new one!], etc.) when all of these regions have something in common: They regularly raid, and rarely, if ever, defend. I'm not disputing the validity of their self-styling -- what they call themselves is up to them. But I'm also not going to be confined by this potpourri of labels that all mean relatively the same thing, or turn my resolution into a hot mess to accommodate them.

[Unibot III]

People who invade regions are by definition invaders in that context, people who identify as invaders are invaders, and people who serve The Invaders are Invaders.


Any questions?

[Cerian Quilor]

Also known as Cormac is playing fast and loose with the truth for a liberation.

So pretty much par for the course for most GP-based SC resolutions. On all sides.

It isn't really that at all, it's that I'm not going to bother with the clutter of including everyone's custom-made labels (independent, non-aligned, unaligned, "fun loving" [that's a new one!], etc.) when all of these regions have something in common: They regularly raid, and rarely, if ever, defend. I'm not disputing the validity of their self-styling -- what they call themselves is up to them. But I'm also not going to be confined by this potpourri of labels that all mean relatively the same thing, or turn my resolution into a hot mess to accommodate them.

That's remarkably progressive and Tumblr-esque of you. I almost approve.

Everyone exaggerates wildly when it comes to libs and condemns (less Commends) because of the vast ignorant voting sheeple, and I don't really hold it against you here. But I do appreciate your point.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Frankly, the message as a whole is more than a bit laughable.

>TBH has invaded and hopes it won't be libbed becuase it's unpopular
>some current natives as well as previously ejected natives don't like the government raiders overthrew
>The world may want to organize a force to remove that government btw, but not like this!
>Instead a trusted coalition should return it to those aggrieved natives
>Don't approve the raid by not liberating it

I don't even know where to start on this.

... the proposal seems more fitting of a liberation against a non-existent password theoretically imposed by the now-deposed government, considering most of the arguments revolve more around existing native tension than the raid. The raid makes no claim of being anything but a raid. Even in that given states, we've received a number of messages of support from current natives. They dislike the ex-founder and parts of the current government so much, they're more than happy to see it burn. It's in large an "if we can't control it, by all means, let no one in the government control it" mentality. Assisting them wouldn't be peacekeeping so much as just picking the faction out of power in petty internal fights. Ex-natives are largely found in the region of Exodus, which consists of a number of ex-Illuminati official that were given the boot. This region itself leans raider (and actually includes folks who were considering making illuminati raid now and then, if I'm not mistaken), has itself attempted (and failed) to regain control in illuminati by military force, and whose leader has expressly thumbs-up emptying it and locking it down tl;dr as long as the ex-founder never touches power there again. Glorifying the petty and person internal squabble and vendettas as anything but is absolutely ridiculous, suggesting supporting one faction over another and just feeding the same sort of power trips against the opposite faction in the name of peace is hilarious, and making out this action of putting the mess present out of its own misery as some great travesty is just plain silly. If anything, we've made the dreams of quite a few natives come true - their mortal enemies look foolish and incapable, and have lost power in the region. Maybe they don't hold it either, but based on the numerous telegrams and discord Pm'sweve received, many are more than happy with this as a middle ground.

Tl;dr for every current or ejected-by-the-prior-government native that speaks out in support of this, I wager I can find two who are fine with the raid.

[The Glitter Queen Aynia]

In all seriousness, Souls really does hit the nail on the head.

Why did it take getting raided for anyone to really care enough to put an effort in to a region torn against itself? Is this really about 'what is best' for Illuminati, or the fact that people are butt hurt that it was raided? Judging by the telegrams of approval and support by the natives and ex natives, and paying attention to the overall tone of what Souls is saying I'm not really sure what you are so up in arms against. You are assuming a refound that hasn't been substantiated, and tbh it looks like the attention Illuminati has received has been the most effort put into giving two shits about it.

When you take a region with a history of in fighting and ignore it, then suddenly pounce on it in an attempt to 'liberate' it, it really shines a light more on trying to one up a group you don't care for than showing any love for the region itself.

[Todd McCloud]

Observing that The Black Hawks, supported by a coalition of invader and imperialist regions, have invaded and occupied the region Illuminati, capitalizing upon the region's unpopularity in hopes that the interregional community will turn a blind eye to ignore their destructive aims;

I'd remove the anthropomorphic phrase / colloquialism used to describe the interregional community, personally. Not only does it sound better, but it avoids any potential issues with that structure.

That being said, I remember their old founder, Romenoch. Quite the polarizing figure indeed. If he's the same guy as Rhyphix, I'm inclined to believe and/or entertain a lot of what Souls is going on about.

[Raionitu]

I can confirm that the regional founder as well as a massive amount of former and current natives have thanked me for raiding Illuminati and asked me to destroy it. They don't want to see it liberated. One former member (name not listed cause I don't have permission to give it out) said: "Beautiful, I Love it. Thanks for raiding my old region here... finally the people here will pay!"

One of the members of the round table, Rigel, volunteered to use their existing influence and become a regional officer as part of the occupation. If you reach out to other former natives, many will tell you not only that they wanted to see Illuminati raided, but they know of people in the government, a LOT of people who want to see Illuminati raided. Some reports suggest that there were more members of the government who wanted to see the region destroyed than members of the government who were actually dedicated.

I have also had 2 other members of the round table (illuminatis legislative body) thank me for raiding the region in private chats. Simple fact is, just about everyone who would have some sort of claim over Illuminati has decided they want the region to burn.

[Zarvarza]

As the former founder (Rhyphix, Romenoch, Solenoc, etc). I say let her burn.

Two reasons for this:
1. You can't kill the history, story, or idea. Illuminati has been united by our ideas, history and story, and that can carry on elsewhere, as it did with GNN, Panopticon, ISIS Empire, etc. The worse your onslaught is, the better the narrative for future Illuminati members.

2. Illuminati is a unique place, great people, and a storied past. We've been at each other's throats more times than we can remember. We've been destroyed, had scandals, fought, and driven nations crazy, but when it's all said and done, we have always united, said good game and moved on. Our last spat lead to my nation being deleted, but do you know what? One day we will laugh and move forward. Your occupation provides just that catalyst to continue the story, start a new chapter, etc.

To the members of Illuminati: we have always been above that of the region. That name at the top of the region page doesn't define you. Resist where I cant, and know that in some way, Illuminati will always live on, within yourselves. We write our own history!

I'll be voting Against this resolution.

[Altino]

Oh, are we being liberated? The things you find out if ever you actually step foot into NS forums. Amazing.

I think it's kind of funny that we literally tried to raid ourselves like... a couple of months ago with nearly this exact same crowd of raiders, but we got busted by leaks with crappy senses of humor. I wonder if we'd have been liberated from ourselves, too. I was sad to see my beloved Saltinos get kicked out of the region, that was a really solid puppet name, but I'm not really that messed up about the actual raid. Idk if TBH intends to refound the region or not, but the Round Table is searching out a new place to call home anyway. Illuminati, its history, and all of the random in-and-out old players had gotten really toxic. New players didn't understand how things worked in the region, old players were all viewed as evil and constantly getting kicked out by newer ones, our recently deposed founder was craptastic and hated by everyone except this one dude who inversely claimed to be a janitor, rocket scientist, and a shared nation between seven different people. Illuminati deserves a rebirth - or not deserves, maybe, but it sure as heck needs one.

There were like three or so people who are mad at The Wardens for not swooping in and saving the day over in Illuminati, but I'm honestly kind of surprised to see a liberation attempt being made. Lol. Most of us reacted to getting raided in the same way that we reacted to becoming founderless: "Eh. That sucks. Oh well."

Maybe if you want to do us some real favors, you could help us come up with a cool new name for a region. Or, even better, don't write us liberation proposals that are basically just saying "Okay, okay, these guys suck and nobody likes them, but it's kinda my job to make an effort, so here you go." That would be lovely.

[Zarvarza]

^
That!

[Cormactopia Prime]

Tl;dr for every current or ejected-by-the-prior-government native that speaks out in support of this, I wager I can find two who are fine with the raid.

Who cares?

The Security Council should not give tacit permission to The Black Hawks to grief and refound a region. Period. There are better ways to handle the native dispute -- including letting them resolve it themselves, or non-destructive intervention aimed at restoring native government -- than letting you conquer a region to add to your trophy collection. The Security Council should not ever allow the latter, and particularly not when some natives don't want to see their region destroyed. Here's a radical idea: Maybe we should let the natives who don't want to see their region destroyed have the region, and the natives who are fine with seeing the region become a dead raider trophy should go elsewhere.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Tl;dr for every current or ejected-by-the-prior-government native that speaks out in support of this, I wager I can find two who are fine with the raid.

Who cares?

The Security Council should not give tacit permission to The Black Hawks to grief and refound a region. Period. There are better ways to handle the native dispute -- including letting them resolve it themselves, or non-destructive intervention aimed at restoring native government -- than letting you conquer a region to add to your trophy collection. The Security Council should not ever allow the latter, and particularly not when some natives don't want to see their region destroyed. Here's a radical idea: Maybe we should let the natives who don't want to see their region destroyed have the region, and the natives who are fine with seeing the region become a dead raider trophy should go elsewhere.

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You have also failed to produce a single shred of hard evidence that there is native support, that natives even exist/care

Prove to us that there is native support for this.

Yes. It has zero native support and you are on another badge hunt that is, frankly, pathetic.

So, you're continuing with this despite there being no native support, even native opposition?

Proof of native support is my majority qualifier when it comes to voting for/against liberations (and their repeals). This proposed liberation had no native support

Also, proposal has no native support.

Hello, Delegate of EQ here.
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Thirdly, there is no native support.

No indication of native support.

The Founder was DEAT'ed by the Mods
...
As none of the authors are natives and are unlikely to be able to produce evidence of native support I am inclined to say let Hydra Command do what they like with the region. No support.

The usual question: does this have native support?

Native support for this?

It has no native support

I'll back it once we see native support for it.

It is incumbent on you to produce the evidence for native support. It's your "proposal", you supply the evidence.

what is the native view - do they still want this?

My usual ask: is there native support for this?

That's just from the short period of 2017 we've had so far. I'm sure if I went back even a full six months I'd have pages more. Who cares? Seems the SC does. And they're the ones who vote on this at the end of the day.

[Cormactopia Prime]

That's just from the short period of 2017 we've had so far. I'm sure if I went back even a full six months I'd have pages more. Who cares? Seems the SC does.

Were any of those threads about letting raiders grief and refound a region to add to their trophy collection? No? Then they aren't relevant.

Regardless, I don't think there's any dispute here that some natives oppose their region being griefed and refounded by The Black Hawks. You've acknowledged that yourself, but have stated that you can produce two natives who support it for every native who opposes it. Regardless, there are natives who oppose it, and if there are natives who oppose the destruction of their region, they should be prioritized over embittered natives and former natives who are fine with seeing it burn.

On another note, I have revised the draft, and I believe the revision incorporates all the suggestions by Bhang Bhang Duc, Unibot, and Todd McCloud. Let me know if I've missed anything.