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[IDEAS] Ideas for SC Resolutions

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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:24 pm

Toerana wrote:
Unibot III wrote:Like I know I’m old and out of touch, but this sounds like some tortured ass fad. We won’t condemn them because that’s recognizing them. Under that logic nothing condemnable would be condemnable. And it’s not like major regions are ignoring CCD, they’re actively running operations against CCD.

I think there’s an argument to be made that the *proper* vehicle for the international community to express its condemnation of CCD is to condemn CCD.

I firmly disagree with this belief, especially because condemnations are often given out as the "raider equivalent" of commendations. They're seen as a badge of honour, recognition of great achievement (like "negative" stats), or as a way to recognize roleplay communities specific form of roleplay.

In Comparison, CCD is controversial and largely condemned because of allegations of them harbouring OOC fascists. Glorifying and recognizing a region for being a center of a game-wide shunned ideology isn't the best idea. Better to ignore them and leave them alone than give them further attention and by extension likely give the issues and ideologies that NS' playerbase near unanimously despises for OOC reasons further recognition and legitimacy.


Like, I understand this view, but it’s a view that’s been expressed before and gone in and out of fashion in the WASC every season. The reality is WA Condemnations are diverse in purpose, some are backhanded commendations (“*wink* *wink* nice job raiding”) and some are actual condemnations. The existence of the former on the books doesn’t negate the possibility of the latter, no more than the existence of the latter on the books negates the possibility of the former. We’ve condemned Nazis and we’ve condemned Omigodtheykilledkenny. We’ve done both, we can do both.

CCD gets *plenty* of attention - if the goal of TNP et. al. is to not give CCD attention, they have spectacularly failed in those regards. My thought is not all attention is good attention, nor wanted attention. If the international community wants to condemn CCD, condemn it. That’s why we have this tool in our possession: to condemn.

Anyways, I bring it up only as an idea. I think over the past few months we’ve seen CCD’s opponents try to obstruct the WA, rather than approach the WA in the way it was intended.

Pluvie wrote:
Tinhampton wrote:Condemn Odhinnia did not get removed from the voting floor simply because Odhinnia got DEATed during the voting phase. Not a staff member but I'd imagine the same principle's in effect today :P

Interesting! :D I legitimately wonder how that would work in a nation sense because I assumed the c&c was dependent on the nation, but I guess in that case I would be led to believe it might be based on the id instead. Very cool, thank you all for answering my silly questions :P

Also Unibot, as a minor suggestion to the thread, maybe you could include some resources for players trying to write c&c? Like history archives, the link to the ns history thread, idk stuff like that that could be used to help do research into candidates before writing them. In addition you could also maybe provide ways to contact the candidates? Idk if that would even be possible. Anyway, I just think research is often a really hard thing to gather for new players looking to get involved so some links and such to help those players might be cool :)


I’ll have to think on it, but of course. Sounds like a good idea!

Comfed wrote:
Pluvie wrote:Okay actually this does ask an interesting question. What happens if a proposal is at vote when the nation it’s commending/condemning, ctes? Or on that same line of thought, what happens if a region being liberated is killed during a liberation proposal? And even further I would wonder, what happens if a region is commended or condemned and then refounded later? Does it keep the badge? I am so full of questions...

Fun fact, Mallorea and Riva refounded his region, which was previously a commended RP region. It kept the badge until some indignant RPers repealed the commend after Liberate Haven.


I always loved that region because it seemed like the rotten borough of commendations.
Last edited by Unibot III on Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:54 am

Usually, the liberation on CCD serves as the Condemn-that-won't-be, since what I wrote in there is most of reason they would be (especially considering they're incompetent at anything approproaching what we Condemn IC).

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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:18 am

I've updated the OP!!

Lord Dominator wrote:Usually, the liberation on CCD serves as the Condemn-that-won't-be, since what I wrote in there is most of reason they would be (especially considering they're incompetent at anything approproaching what we Condemn IC).


Admittedly I don't understand this dynamic whatsoever - how does a WA Liberation offer less attention than a WA Condemnation? They're both badges. They're both linked to a WA Resolution. But a newbie might interpret the Liberation badge (without reading the resolution) as being a good thing, the WA Condemnation badge is unambigiously bad.

I feel like you guys are deeply overthinking the consequences of a WA Condemnation. It takes some tortured logic to conclude the big black firey one is the good one, and the blue skies one is for Nazis.
Last edited by Unibot III on Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
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Comfed
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Postby Comfed » Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:59 pm

Liberations can actually have an effect. (And people have tried to repeal the liberation because it's a badge for them.)

Also, if we did condemn fascists then I don't think CCD would merit one anyway.
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Numero Capitan wrote:I haven't bothered reading back but I can unequivocally say that I agree with everything HEM has said and Unibot is wrong

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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:18 am

The consideration at the time of liberation was not attention, that's rather more recent since they haven't gone away as expected & deliberately seek out attention.

As to those who don't read it (and ignore the Civil Siren tgs), I can't help that lack of reading.

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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:14 am

Honestly guys, I'm not trying to be difficult, I don't get it. An "offensive" WA Liberation on CCD doesn't make much sense to me. In my experience (& I know I haven't defended since Barack Obama was President, but the game really hasn't changed all that much), you're providing them with additional security in the event that the founder CTE's (or gets DEAT), and the Liberation badge image (e.g., joyful, serene) confuses the overall message you're trying to send.

For instance, in the case of "NAZI EUROPE" - the coalition didn't invade & grief NAZI EUROPE successfully until after "Liberate NAZI EUROPE" was repealed earlier that year. WA Liberation badges are extremely unhelpful if your goal is to actually destroy a region, rather than just obstruct/occupy/harass.

It's very strange to see some GPers think that a liberation gives CCD too much attention, and then have other GPers think a repeal of their liberation gives CCD too much attention. The conflict of these views is generating a boatload of attention and international crises (RE: quorum raiding) for CCD surrounding the legitimate level of attention these guys are supposed to recieve from the WASC.

It's clear that some major regions believe CCD is condemnable, because they're communicating that directly to the rest of NSGP. And if they think that CCD is condemnable, the proper vehicle for that, in my view, is a straight WA Condemnation. You say, here's why CCD is a bad community. You lay out the reasons. And you let the chips fall where they fall. Maybe the international community won't agree with that assessment, maybe they will, but it's important to give them the opportunity to make that decision.

Ultimately, this thread is just about ideas that WA Authors may want to pick up on, it goes without saying: some of these ideas are better than others. :p
Last edited by Unibot III on Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008 | Former Delegate of TRR | Gameplay Alignment: -18 / -13
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Honeydewistania
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Postby Honeydewistania » Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:18 am

I've never agreed with offensive liberations (if the founder is still active) on principle in the first place. But it does serve a semi useful purpose of preventing the delegate from passwording the region in case Joco's nation kicks the bucket, and can always be repealed once invading forces gain control of the region
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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:25 am

Honeydewistania wrote:I've never agreed with offensive liberations (if the founder is still active) on principle in the first place. But it does serve a semi useful purpose of preventing the delegate from passwording the region in case Joco's nation kicks the bucket, and can always be repealed once invading forces gain control of the region


Yes, but can it be repealed, Honeydewistania? That's what I was hinting at. The whole idea of the offensive liberation is it's predicated on the belief that when CCD's founder goes CTE, that a coalition can invade, and get a repeal passed.

But what if you're not able to pass the WA repeal? Or not able to get the repeal in the queue, due to quorum raiding?

In that event, the offensive liberation becomes a strategic blunder. You don't need a WA Liberation to invade a passworded region (you just need good intelligence). But you do need a repeal of a WA Liberation to grief/destroy a liberated region.

I think what we've seen is the international opinon surrounding CCD is ambigious, the acceptable use of force is under question, and GPers are divided over how the international community should treat CCD. That's a recipe for severe problems on the WA floor. A repeal may be difficult to pass, and challenging to reach quorum.

Like, if I were CCD's critics, I would want a WA Liberation repealed (because it could become a major pain in the ass), and a more conventional WA Condemnation installed. That way you still have a visual warning to players that CCD is pernicious, and the badge links to a text outlining their history. But you're not risking obstruction of a future occupation.
Last edited by Unibot III on Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:34 am, edited 6 times in total.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008 | Former Delegate of TRR | Gameplay Alignment: -18 / -13
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Comfed
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Postby Comfed » Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:17 am

Unibot, you underestimate how much people hate CCD. If it meant the destruction of the region, it would pass, overwhelmingly.
Mall:
Best part about being a mod was engaging in normal player behavior and getting accused of abuse
"You think this is abuse? I'll SHOW you abuse."
Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:In the liberal justice system, raiding-based offenses are considered especially heinous. In The South Pacific, the dedicated defenders who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad known as the Council on Regional Security. These are their proscriptions. DUN DUN.

Numero Capitan wrote:I haven't bothered reading back but I can unequivocally say that I agree with everything HEM has said and Unibot is wrong

Put this in your sig if you passed biology and know that gender and sex are not the same thing.

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Toerana
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Postby Toerana » Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:26 am

Comfed wrote:Unibot, you underestimate how much people hate CCD. If it meant the destruction of the region, it would pass, overwhelmingly.

Because region destruction isn't acceptable until it suddenly is? :P
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Comfed
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Postby Comfed » Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:29 am

Toerana wrote:
Comfed wrote:Unibot, you underestimate how much people hate CCD. If it meant the destruction of the region, it would pass, overwhelmingly.

Because region destruction isn't acceptable until it suddenly is? :P

Destroying fascist regions is fine.
Mall:
Best part about being a mod was engaging in normal player behavior and getting accused of abuse
"You think this is abuse? I'll SHOW you abuse."
Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:In the liberal justice system, raiding-based offenses are considered especially heinous. In The South Pacific, the dedicated defenders who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad known as the Council on Regional Security. These are their proscriptions. DUN DUN.

Numero Capitan wrote:I haven't bothered reading back but I can unequivocally say that I agree with everything HEM has said and Unibot is wrong

Put this in your sig if you passed biology and know that gender and sex are not the same thing.

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Unibot III
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:38 am

Comfed wrote:Unibot, you underestimate how much people hate CCD. If it meant the destruction of the region, it would pass, overwhelmingly.


I think you're underestimating what a crapshow the repeal could actually be, given all of the different layers of discussion at play: region griefing, fascism, quorum raiding etc. It may pass, it may not. It may not even get in the queue (like the other repeals).

I'll note I'm not saying this because I have an informed opinion on CCD either which way, I'm just noting that over the past few weeks nothing has convinced me that the international community is on the same page with regards to a hostile repeal. My expectation would be a rushed repeal effort, post-occupation, would be fraught with political difficulties.

And if you fail, you've handcuffed your own occupation. It's dumb.

The moment that CCD is occupied, the political drama surrounding a repeal effort gets dialed up to 13. Drama, in my experience, can make stupid things happen and it makes it harder to control the state of play.

It'd be much easier, in my opinion, to replace the liberation with a condemnation now (while things are low stakes), and - if the opportunity arises - invading/griefing CCD without a WA Liberation. Then you only have to try to stop a WA Liberation from passing during the occupation, which is easier than drafting and getting a repeal passed.
Last edited by Unibot III on Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:55 am, edited 4 times in total.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
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Sodoran Alesia
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Postby Sodoran Alesia » Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:17 am

Unibot III wrote:Like, if I were CCD's critics, I would want a WA Liberation repealed (because it could become a major pain in the ass), and a more conventional WA Condemnation installed. That way you still have a visual warning to players that CCD is pernicious, and the badge links to a text outlining their history. But you're not risking obstruction of a future occupation.


Okay I can understand the logic behind wanting the liberation repealed (I disagree with that logic, most of NS hates CCD's guts and a repeal would probably be pretty easy to pass), but why in the world would you want to condemn CCD? Condemns are recognition for in game accomplishments with a focus on IC villainy, like for instance The Black Hawks were condemned twice for being one of the best raiding orgs in the game, or Koem Kab has been condemned for their absolute dominance in the cards mini-game. What has CCD ever done to even remotely merit a condemnation?

They harbored real OOC fascists, that's really bad. That's what you want to recognize them for? By that logic we should condemn every fascist region. Like no, condemns recognize in-game accomplishments and immortalize their names in the game, you want to recognize people for being actual bad people?

Using a condemn as a "visual warning" sounds ridiculous, what are players kindergartners something? Bright liberation badge good condemn badge bad. People are smarter than that .

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Unibot III
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:55 am

Sodoran Alesia wrote:
Unibot III wrote:Like, if I were CCD's critics, I would want a WA Liberation repealed (because it could become a major pain in the ass), and a more conventional WA Condemnation installed. That way you still have a visual warning to players that CCD is pernicious, and the badge links to a text outlining their history. But you're not risking obstruction of a future occupation.


Okay I can understand the logic behind wanting the liberation repealed (I disagree with that logic, most of NS hates CCD's guts and a repeal would probably be pretty easy to pass), but why in the world would you want to condemn CCD? Condemns are recognition for in game accomplishments with a focus on IC villainy, like for instance The Black Hawks were condemned twice for being one of the best raiding orgs in the game, or Koem Kab has been condemned for their absolute dominance in the cards mini-game. What has CCD ever done to even remotely merit a condemnation?


This is a very recent assumption about C&Cs, it comes and goes out of fashion every year. We’ve condemned fascists in the past. We’ll condemn fascists again.

For instance, when I wrote Condemn Omigodtheykilledkenny, (what, a decade ago? Lord have mercy) it was an aberration in that I was condemning someone who wasn’t reprehensible.

They harbored real OOC fascists, that's really bad. That's what you want to recognize them for? By that logic we should condemn every fascist region. Like no, condemns recognize in-game accomplishments and immortalize their names in the game, you want to recognize people for being actual bad people?


A condemnation is not the “recognition” that most people, including CCD would invite. Anti-heroes embrace satirical condemnations because they’re not serious, but *actually* condemnable nominees have historically not liked being condemned by sincere condemnations (a number moved their HQs). The belief that all condemnations need to be light, fluffy & satirical is predicated on the belief that condemnations can’t do both, that they can’t coexist — but they can, the WA has long done both.

The purpose of category is fluid and multidimensional - it can be satirical, abstract, or purposive. One week the SC has condemned actual bastards and the next it’s condemning well mannered people who roleplay gulags online for fun.

Using a condemn as a "visual warning" sounds ridiculous, what are players kindergartners something? Bright liberation badge good condemn badge bad. People are smarter than that .


People are dumb. People are very dumb.
Last edited by Unibot III on Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
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Sodoran Alesia
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Postby Sodoran Alesia » Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:41 pm

Unibot III wrote:This is a very recent assumption about C&Cs, it comes and goes out of fashion every year. We’ve condemned fascists in the past. We’ll condemn fascists again.


You assume NS is cyclical in this regard and ignore the massive cultural shift in the game regarding antifascism. Antifascism has become the norm and indeed has transcended R/D and ideology, it is supported unequivocally and it won't just wane away like some trend. You won't see a repeat of Pact of Steel. Certain styles may go out of fashion but antifascism has impressed itself upon the game.

Unibot III wrote:For instance, when I wrote Condemn Omigodtheykilledkenny, (what, a decade ago? Lord have mercy) it was an aberration in that I was condemning someone who wasn’t reprehensible.


It was an aberration 10 years ago, things change, standards change, styles of proposals change, but those changes don't imply a cyclical nature, some ideas build and impress upon each other to create the new standard, you don't see regression to the old era's standards.

Unibot III wrote:A condemnation is not the “recognition” that most people, including CCD would invite. Anti-heroes embrace satirical condemnations because they’re not serious, but *actually* condemnable nominees have historically not liked being condemned by sincere condemnations (a number moved their HQs). The belief that all condemnations need to be light, fluffy & satirical is predicated on the belief that condemnations can’t do both, that they can’t coexist — but they can, the WA has long done both.


Uh, do you realize what you're saying? You think condemning CCD would work because they wouldn't like it? Quite the contrary, have you seen the cringy shadow cult bs they keep on pulling? A condemn would be a huge PR boost for them. Doesn't matter what you say in it, as long as they have the dark badge it completes the shitty image they're trying to build.

Indeed, it's part of why there's an offensive liberation in place, you can't put a spin on it. On the other hand, a condemn badge is exactly what CCD wants. You bring up the past for examples of condemns the nominee didn't like but we're in the present, for people now a condemn is a type of recognition whether you like it or not and it'll only be to CCD's advantage were they to get one. No one looks at a condemn badge and thinks "Oh this person/region is really bad OOC," the mode of thinking now is grounded in IC.

Unibot III wrote:The purpose of category is fluid and multidimensional - it can be satirical, abstract, or purposive. One week the SC has condemned actual bastards and the next it’s condemning well mannered people who roleplay gulags online for fun.


I'm not denying that C/C proposals can have different styles or purposes but condemning CCD makes no sense lol As noted above, it only gives CCD what they want.

Unibot III wrote:People are dumb. People are very dumb.


As noted above, a liberation can't be spun the way a condemn can.
Last edited by Sodoran Alesia on Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Unibot III
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:37 pm

Sodoran Alesia wrote:
Unibot III wrote:This is a very recent assumption about C&Cs, it comes and goes out of fashion every year. We’ve condemned fascists in the past. We’ll condemn fascists again.


You assume NS is cyclical in this regard and ignore the massive cultural shift in the game regarding antifascism. Antifascism has become the norm and indeed has transcended R/D and ideology, it is supported unequivocally and it won't just wane away like some trend. You won't see a repeat of Pact of Steel. Certain styles may go out of fascism but antifascism has impressed itself upon the game.


I mean, I think NSGP always strongly condemns hate & intolerance. But the attention that Antifascism receives in NSGP most certainly does ebb and flow.

Unibot III wrote:For instance, when I wrote Condemn Omigodtheykilledkenny, (what, a decade ago? Lord have mercy) it was an aberration in that I was condemning someone who wasn’t reprehensible.


It was an aberration 10 years ago, things change, standards change, styles of proposals change, but those changes don't imply a cyclical nature, some ideas build and impress upon each other to create the new standard, you don't see regression to the old era's standards.


I’m not talking about a regression. A regression would imply that different types of condemnations are better than others.

Unibot III wrote:A condemnation is not the “recognition” that most people, including CCD would invite. Anti-heroes embrace satirical condemnations because they’re not serious, but *actually* condemnable nominees have historically not liked being condemned by sincere condemnations (a number moved their HQs). The belief that all condemnations need to be light, fluffy & satirical is predicated on the belief that condemnations can’t do both, that they can’t coexist — but they can, the WA has long done both.


Uh, do you realize what you're saying? You think condemning CCD would work because they wouldn't like it? Quite the contrary, have you seen the cringy shadow cult bs they keep on pulling? A condemn would be a huge PR boost for them. Doesn't matter what you say in it, as long as they have the dark badge it completes the shitty image they're trying to build.

Indeed, it's part of why there's an offensive liberation in place, you can't put a spin on it. On the other hand, a condemn badge is exactly what CCD wants. You bring up the past for examples of condemns the nominee didn't like but we're in the present, for people now a condemn is a type of recognition whether you like it or not and it'll only be to CCD's advantage were they to get one. No one looks at a condemn badge and thinks "Oh this person/region is really bad OOC," the mode of thinking now is grounded in IC.


Complete baloney.

CCD is clearly desperate for better PR, and improving its image.

And the only people confident that “SC Condemnations have changed forever!” are the ten people that frequent this subforum and are convinced they’re witnessing some kind of longstanding cultural change in the WASC. Eventually these same SC Authors will get tired of fluffy condemnations and choose to write some actual condemnations. Boredom and stagnancy is a strong motivating factor for change in the WASC.

To most voters, the WA category is a condemnation. Its meaning and use is fluid.

Unibot III wrote:The purpose of category is fluid and multidimensional - it can be satirical, abstract, or purposive. One week the SC has condemned actual bastards and the next it’s condemning well mannered people who roleplay gulags online for fun.


I'm not denying that C/C proposals can have different styles or purposes but condemning CCD makes no sense lol As noted above, it only gives CCD what they want.


I really don’t see where they want that kind of negative attention. They act like people who a) want to play the martyr, and b) want to rehabilitate their image without making substantive changes internally.

Unibot III wrote:People are dumb. People are very dumb.


As noted above, a liberation can't be spun the way a condemn can.


Yes, it can.

A WA Liberation is much easier to spin than a WA Condemnation. First, the badge looks pleasant (you keep dismissing this, but it’s true!). Second, a WA Liberation can be spun as an attack on CCD’s sovereignty, playing into its martyr mentality. There’s nothing to martyrize about a WA Condemnation — making it unambiguous. It’s a big scary orange-black badge linked to a text that says you’re terrible people.
Last edited by Unibot III on Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:57 pm

Saying that they can't spin a Condemn into being an attack on them and thus into their martyr complex, but can spin a Liberation into being an attack on them is hardly a reasonable take. It's easy to spin a Condemn as being Gameplay being unjustifiably hating of them. It's not that hard.

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Comfed
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Postby Comfed » Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:32 am

I can say, without hesitation, that everything Unibot said is wrong.
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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:41 am

Lord Dominator wrote:Saying that they can't spin a Condemn into being an attack on them and thus into their martyr complex, but can spin a Liberation into being an attack on them is hardly a reasonable take. It's easy to spin a Condemn as being Gameplay being unjustifiably hating of them. It's not that hard.


You’ve missed a major point here: whereas a condemnation is a badge, a liberation can impact a region’s security and defence. It is much easier to martyrize yourself over something that is non-cosmetic, than something that is ultimately cosmetic.

It is difficult to generate sympathy when nothing is at stake except a badge; it makes it far easier to generate sympathy when you play into existing concerns that others have about invading and sovereignty and the misuse of the World Assembly’s power.

For critics of CCD, a condemnation should be preferable over a liberation in the context of CCD for three main reasons:

(1) Less difficult for others to misinterpret. Unambiguous condemnation.
(2) More difficult to martyrize.
(3) It doesn’t create new obstacles to griefing CCD.

A condemnation is a condemnation. It says what they’re accused of in the text. If the WA backs the text, it usually is not a point of sympathy for anyone.

This is why most non-satirical condemnation nominees react quite poorly to being condemned. I have no reason to think CCD “wants” to be condemned. They seem desperate to improve their reputation.

A liberation, on the other, is a liberation. You have to read the full text of the current resolution to gather its full meaning, and even still, you may need further context to understand that this particular WA Liberation is a “hostile liberation” meant to act in part as a condemnation.
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Postby Tinhampton » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:44 am

Comfed wrote:I can say, without hesitation, that everything Unibot said is wrong.

What were you thinking, then, and why is it Righter(TM)? :P
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Comfed
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Postby Comfed » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:00 am

Unibot III wrote:
Sodoran Alesia wrote:
You assume NS is cyclical in this regard and ignore the massive cultural shift in the game regarding antifascism. Antifascism has become the norm and indeed has transcended R/D and ideology, it is supported unequivocally and it won't just wane away like some trend. You won't see a repeat of Pact of Steel. Certain styles may go out of fascism but antifascism has impressed itself upon the game.


I mean, I think NSGP always strongly condemns hate & intolerance. But the attention that Antifascism receives in NSGP most certainly does ebb and flow.

Maybe in the past, but things change. And attention is irrelevant - antifa can be more or less paid attention to but NSGP will never stop hating fascism and part of that is taking away recognition.


It was an aberration 10 years ago, things change, standards change, styles of proposals change, but those changes don't imply a cyclical nature, some ideas build and impress upon each other to create the new standard, you don't see regression to the old era's standards.


I’m not talking about a regression. A regression would imply that different types of condemnations are better than others.

Going back to those standards would be a regression.



Uh, do you realize what you're saying? You think condemning CCD would work because they wouldn't like it? Quite the contrary, have you seen the cringy shadow cult bs they keep on pulling? A condemn would be a huge PR boost for them. Doesn't matter what you say in it, as long as they have the dark badge it completes the shitty image they're trying to build.

Indeed, it's part of why there's an offensive liberation in place, you can't put a spin on it. On the other hand, a condemn badge is exactly what CCD wants. You bring up the past for examples of condemns the nominee didn't like but we're in the present, for people now a condemn is a type of recognition whether you like it or not and it'll only be to CCD's advantage were they to get one. No one looks at a condemn badge and thinks "Oh this person/region is really bad OOC," the mode of thinking now is grounded in IC.


Complete baloney.

CCD is clearly desperate for better PR, and improving its image.

Not at all, actually. They would spin their commend into their “most hated regions on NS” propaganda.@

And the only people confident that “SC Condemnations have changed forever!” are the ten people that frequent this subforum and are convinced they’re witnessing some kind of longstanding cultural change in the WASC. Eventually these same SC Authors will get tired of fluffy condemnations and choose to write some actual condemnations. Boredom and stagnancy is a strong motivating factor for change in the WASC.

Actually, the change happened a while ago. You just missed it. We do write actual condemnations, but not to give recognition to OOC reprehensible people.

To most voters, the WA category is a condemnation. Its meaning and use is fluid.


I'm not denying that C/C proposals can have different styles or purposes but condemning CCD makes no sense lol As noted above, it only gives CCD what they want.


I really don’t see where they want that kind of negative attention. They act like people who a) want to play the martyr, and b) want to rehabilitate their image without making substantive changes internally.

Their image includes their martyr rhetoric.


As noted above, a liberation can't be spun the way a condemn can.


Yes, it can.

A WA Liberation is much easier to spin than a WA Condemnation. First, the badge looks pleasant (you keep dismissing this, but it’s true!). Second, a WA Liberation can be spun as an attack on CCD’s sovereignty, playing into its martyr mentality. There’s nothing to martyrize about a WA Condemnation — making it unambiguous. It’s a big scary orange-black badge linked to a text that says you’re terrible people.

[/quote]Uhh... no. A condemnation is easier to martyrize because they can point to their badge and say, “all of NS is against us!”quote]
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Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:In the liberal justice system, raiding-based offenses are considered especially heinous. In The South Pacific, the dedicated defenders who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad known as the Council on Regional Security. These are their proscriptions. DUN DUN.

Numero Capitan wrote:I haven't bothered reading back but I can unequivocally say that I agree with everything HEM has said and Unibot is wrong

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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:07 pm

Comfed wrote:Maybe in the past, but things change.


Yes, things change. That is exactly what I am saying, things change. How can you use "things change" to defend the idea that something is now a permanant cultural feature of NS? :roll:

Uhh... no. A condemnation is easier to martyrize because they can point to their badge and say, “all of NS is against us!”quote]


"Nuh uh" is not an convincing argument. I've just explained why I think condemnations are more difficult to martyrize than liberations: because they're cosmetic, & not connected to larger questions of regional sovereignty and the legitimate use of the WA Security Council's powers.

As you've said, CCD is already currently trying to whip up sympathy and martyrdom - the choice of pursuing a WA Liberation over a WA Condemnation hasn't stopped CCD from trying to say "all of NS is against us!" What I'm saying is it would be a less persuasive routine if a condemnation, rather than a liberation had been pursued.

I think you're also overlooking their clear desire for public rehabilitation, by focusing on their martyrdom. These aren't contradictory tendencies, they're complimentary. You can't grift off being unfairly ostracized/cancelled without also trying to establish that your ostracization is unfair. This is where a WA Condemnation would play an important role in evidencing the case against CCD and their rehabilitation.
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Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
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The Langburn Islands
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Postby The Langburn Islands » Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:50 pm

Uni, I'm not entirely sure how the CCD have ' a clear desire for public rehabilitation'. They have put on this fantastic but completely insincere façade about how much they have changed and have included a line on their WFE about how they no longer accept real life fascists as members.

Does the rest of NS have any real proof that the CCD have changed for the better or do we just have to accept the word of a region that has a history of harbouring real life fascists and who is continuing to railing against the rest of NS Gameplay as being unfairly biased against them? The behaviour exhibited by various CCD officials of aggressively going after anyone who dare criticises them shows that they are a region that has not changed at all and is merely glossing over the cracks. We have zero proof that they have changed and until they can provide concrete proof that they have improved, they should continued to be ostracised.

The best way would dealing with genuinely contemptible regions like the CCD and fascist regions is to simply ignore them. They deserve no recognition whether positive or negative from the Security Council. What good did Condemn Nazi Europe do at actually removing Nazi Europe from the game? Nothing. The only ways which we can beat the scourge of fascism in NationStates is to ostracise them, destroy their regions and ban them from the game for spreading their toxic, disgusting beliefs.
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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:50 am

Uni, I'm not entirely sure how the CCD have ' a clear desire for public rehabilitation'. They have put on this fantastic but completely insincere façade about how much they have changed and have included a line on their WFE about how they no longer accept real life fascists as members.


I think I may have been unclear here: I'm not saying they have a clear desire to change, I'm saying they have a clear desire to be percieved as changing. They obviously want people to believe that they're misunderstood, and a WA Condemnation with solid evidence provided, works against that charge.

There are players here that have said CCD revels in having a bad reputation and grifts off it, and would enjoy being condemned. I think this is inaccurate. I think the WA Liberation has been easier to grift off of. And they're not cultivating a reputation of being a bad region, but a good region that is misunderstood and mis-ostracized.

I think the WA Liberation plays into their communication strategy more so than a WA Condemnation would. I think the WA SC community overthought things when they pursued a liberation in lieu of a condemnation.

The Langburn Islands wrote:The best way would dealing with genuinely contemptible regions like the CCD and fascist regions is to simply ignore them. They deserve no recognition whether positive or negative from the Security Council. What good did Condemn Nazi Europe do at actually removing Nazi Europe from the game? Nothing. The only ways which we can beat the scourge of fascism in NationStates is to ostracise them, destroy their regions and ban them from the game for spreading their toxic, disgusting beliefs.


I could be wrong, but I actually do remember Condemn NAZI EUROPE hurt NAZI EUROPE's recruitment / regional growth levels. What NAZI EUROPE was doing back in the day was saying like "we're not actually Nazis, we're roleplaying European Fascism" or whatever -- and the condemnation helped cautioned newer players that this was not the cause, that their organizers were in fact Nazi supporters and that they should rethink joining NAZI EUROPE.

"Liberate NAZI EUROPE" on the other hand was completely useless. It generated an unnecessary discussion surrounding the use of the WA's powers. It was not necessary whatsoever to invade, occupy, and destroy NAZI EUROPE. The Liberation would have had to have been repealed in a rush if it hadn't already been repealed.

CCD seems to be doing something similar as NE, in that they're playing up the fact they're misunderstood, mistargeted etc. A condemnation can challenge that record unambigiously.

I will say I do recall the collective population of fascist regions growing significantly in 2013 during the "Nazi Panics" in the spring.

What happened was, as NSGP targeted NAZI EUROPE, exploiting its insecurity, players left NAZI EUROPE for more secure new fascist regions with active founders. This was problematic in that NE was a mature region with a lazy approach to recruitment, the spin-offs of NE were plentiful and organized by newer, more energetic leadership - so although NE was shrinking, the number of players being recruited into fascist and Nazi regions were growing overall in 2013. This was a case of "careful what you wish for," I think. Having hate communities anchored in one, mature UCR, meant that it wasn't as effectively recruiting as multiple new UCRs (hungry for recruits from 4Chan and beyond) might have. While GCRs complained loudly about RMB adspam from NE, NE's reliance on grossly ineffective adspam was frankly helpful and a sign of the region's maturation.

Hope this answers your response. :/
Last edited by Unibot III on Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:56 am, edited 3 times in total.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
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Sorianora
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Postby Sorianora » Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:36 am

I’m considering starting a draft to commend Atlantian Oceania. Any suggestions on material or sources to find it?

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