[DEFEATED] Commend The North Pacific

[Guy]

And their anti-Nazi missions have been glorified preening. When the Anne Frank mission happened, r3n refused to pursue the mission without an 'official statement' on behalf of all members attending the liberation - and the statement was this wild anti-fascist triumphant glorification of a liberation of a two-nation puppet region - I'll never forget how determined they were to capitalize on the memory of a young murdered heroine for cheap publicity points in a text-based game for fuck sakes. I mean, having an official statement on behalf of all members was strange enough (usually each attendee does their own spiel or ditto's), but forcing a particular message - the proto-CAIN moralism - was as typical as you could get to their kind of politics. I regretted helping them get their numbers for that liberation after that messaging bullshit (it was basically a fake liberation anyway given there was no native community).

I don't have all the history of how the statement was conceived, but I do have contemporaneous notes that it was discussed with you, and no agreement as to wording could be reached.

This was not just a "fake liberation" of a "two-nation puppet region". An invasion of Anne Frank is offensive enough. An invasion of Anne Frank by Nazi forces is possibly the singularly most offensive thing I've seen in my time in NS. Unlike invading Nazi regions, which in my opinion is a never-ending task with an unreachable goal, getting Anne Frank back was accomplished, and it was important that we did.

Essentially, the part of the statement that you objected to is this:

All participating militaries acknowledge the operation as a powerful demonstration of interregional cooperation against the forceful spread of fascism and Nazism in NationStates. The participating militaries are elated to have put their differences aside and worked together in this operation.

If that part of the statement is read by some to be a precursor to offensive operations against Nazi regions, that was not what we had in mind when drafting it. It was clear to all participants that not all of them would participate in such missions.

Bottom-line: You and I both disagree with TNP on the value of anti-Nazi operations. We agree that CAIN's approach is unhelpful, and mostly self-aggrandises. But once you brought Anne Frank into it, I think you're wrong.

[Tinhampton]

So... any other complaints (other than about TNP's uncommendability) that need to be made here?

[Mallorea and Riva]

So... any other complaints (other than about TNP's uncommendability) that need to be made here?

Mentioning TNP's resilience in the face of a series of coups throughout its history would make sense. I'm sure a TNP history buff could fill you in.

[Unibot III]

And their anti-Nazi missions have been glorified preening. When the Anne Frank mission happened, r3n refused to pursue the mission without an 'official statement' on behalf of all members attending the liberation - and the statement was this wild anti-fascist triumphant glorification of a liberation of a two-nation puppet region - I'll never forget how determined they were to capitalize on the memory of a young murdered heroine for cheap publicity points in a text-based game for fuck sakes. I mean, having an official statement on behalf of all members was strange enough (usually each attendee does their own spiel or ditto's), but forcing a particular message - the proto-CAIN moralism - was as typical as you could get to their kind of politics. I regretted helping them get their numbers for that liberation after that messaging bullshit (it was basically a fake liberation anyway given there was no native community).

I don't have all the history of how the statement was conceived, but I do have contemporaneous notes that it was discussed with you, and no agreement as to wording could be reached.

This was not just a "fake liberation" of a "two-nation puppet region". An invasion of Anne Frank is offensive enough. An invasion of Anne Frank by Nazi forces is possibly the singularly most offensive thing I've seen in my time in NS. Unlike invading Nazi regions, which in my opinion is a never-ending task with an unreachable goal, getting Anne Frank back was accomplished, and it was important that we did.

Essentially, the part of the statement that you objected to is this:

All participating militaries acknowledge the operation as a powerful demonstration of interregional cooperation against the forceful spread of fascism and Nazism in NationStates. The participating militaries are elated to have put their differences aside and worked together in this operation.

If that part of the statement is read by some to be a precursor to offensive operations against Nazi regions, that was not what we had in mind when drafting it. It was clear to all participants that not all of them would participate in such missions.

Bottom-line: You and I both disagree with TNP on the value of anti-Nazi operations. We agree that CAIN's approach is unhelpful, and mostly self-aggrandises. But once you brought Anne Frank into it, I think you're wrong.

The invasion of Anne Frank was despicable, but it was also a region with two native puppets in it. The message as it was written emphasized a "powerful demonstration" against the "forceful spread of fascism and Nazism in NationStates" in what amounted to a singular defeat of a multi-ing Nazi force in a puppet region. I felt it was pure propaganda to suggest that the mission was stopping the forceful spread of anything. But any concession on the part of TNP to drop the notion that this was a triumphant anti-fascist march to Valhalla was not acceptable. Very quickly r3n overruled any attempts to negotiate a message - suggesting that I was not a representative for an army (although they knew full well that I provided 20% of the troops for the mission.)

If I had known they would try to control the messaging like that, I wouldn't have recruited for Anne Frank. I doubt my lacking an official army would have mattered to r3n if I had forced them to tone down the messaging or drop the universal message prior to our victory. They asked me to recruit for the mission without informing me about the statement they were going to use for it, which had apparently been negotiated behind my back (because I didn't "represent" anything.) They knew full well I would have opposed their wording and they wouldn't have had even close to the necessary numbers if they hadn't asked me to recruit.

And that's largely why I dislike TNP's anti-fascist approach, it's over-the-top and politicizes everything. Nothing is simply just about the mission, it's all about the symbolism and the publicity. And doing that with something like the legacy of Anne Frank is pretty low, in my opinion. They could just have dropped the use of a universal message, but that would have hurt their own communications strategy which depends on the appearance of consensus. That's all it was to them, a communications stunt.

I don't see the evidence you've provided in any such way suggests TNP is commendable. So, they're big. Good for them. The Northern Light is a pretty unremarkable newsletter. And their anti-Nazi missions have been glorified preening. When the Anne Frank mission happened, r3n refused to pursue the mission without an 'official statement' on behalf of all members attending the liberation - and the statement was this wild anti-fascist triumphant glorification of a liberation of a two-nation puppet region - I'll never forget how determined they were to capitalize on the memory of a young murdered heroine for cheap publicity points in a text-based game for fuck sakes. I mean, having an official statement on behalf of all members was strange enough (usually each attendee does their own spiel or ditto's), but forcing a particular message - the proto-CAIN moralism - was as typical as you could get to their kind of politics. I regretted helping them get their numbers for that liberation after that messaging bullshit (it was basically a fake liberation anyway given there was no native community).

I don't really feel like a point by point refutation of this nonsense, but I just wanted to chime in to say that there is almost nothing accurate in this entire paragraph. Even other defenders have said as much.

It's completely accurate. TNP was relentless about pursuing a group statement and was not willing to make any alterations to the message of the statement which suggested the mission somehow represented a force against "the (supposed) spread" of Nazism in NationStates. They used the fact that RRA is independent of TRR to argue that I wasn't a representative of a participating region, meanwhile they requested I as a non-representative somehow jimmy up all the recruits they needed to do their mission with my non-army of non-recruits. It was a ludicrous and cheap assertion by r3n to suggest I didn't represent TRR. I was its bloody delegate and TRR's non-RRA citizens participated in the mission on instruction from me.

[Tinhampton]

So... any other complaints (other than about TNP's uncommendability) that need to be made here?

Mentioning TNP's resilience in the face of a series of coups throughout its history would make sense. I'm sure a TNP history buff could fill you in.

I've already mentioned this (I think), although recommendations about what to do about this paragraph are desired:

Believing that, after frequent takeovers of TNP's government in the latter part of the 2000s (in addition to another one in 2013, and the "Puppetmaster" operation in 2004 to protect the region from the New Pacific Order), The North Pacific is now a successful and stable region (in no small part thanks to the work of the region's Security Councillors to keep the region safe from potential threats); and...

[Unibot III]

TNP wasn't couped in 2013 was it? Maybe while I was away...

I remember, off the top of my head:

Great Bights
Pixiedance / Ivan
(Was their a Dali coup in between these?)
The Crimson Order
JAL 1
Shoeless Joe
JAL 2

[Alustrian]

Leaving aside the "how about we don't commend a GCR mostly for being a GCR" line of thinking...this draft feels weak for a region of TNP's history. The political landscape would give this resolution a real chance of passing, but you need to think if you want a badge enough that you would let the recorded commendation look like this one. TNP has many archives and a large contingent of veteran players - all of whom enjoy talking about old NS Finish the research, then write the resolution.

Thoughts on the draft:

First we have several clauses that can be distilled to "big region in the last few years." - important, yes, but should it take up this large of a proportion of the resolution?

Then an incomplete list of commended residents of the region. Is listing r3n's puppets the only way to achieve your goal? There are many other noteworthy TNPers with commendations, so I'm curious about the criteria used to include/exclude commended nations from the list.

Newspapers are good.

Looks like others are helping to add information about the coups.

I would suggest looking back to build on the NPA section. The anti nazi operations will get votes, but other parts of the NPA may be more interesting. The original NPA should probably be mentioned. Its revival (during a time when GCR armies barely existed) is also noteworthy.

[Unibot III]

I would encourage the author, rather than say "they have lots of endos" etc. emphasize how TNP's path to reform has helped other regions too - because they've served as a model for democratic reform. For example, TSP and Osiris and Lazarus all looked to TNP's SC as a great success - and I think all GCRs are starting to recognize the value of endorsement trading.

The Security Council,

Regarding the North Pacific, one of five feeder regions in NationStates, as an example for others to follow in terms of achieving regional stability and security through democratic means,

Noting that after its subsequent coups d'état – Great Bight, Pixiedance, The Crimson Order, Shoeless Joe, Durkadurkiranistan I & II – many of which are cited by previous Security Council resolutions* – the North Pacific endeavored post-liberation to recover and prevent future such events in a manner that was consistent with its democratic heritage, such as:

• The creation of a Bill of Rights;
• Upholding the rule of law and the supremacy of the legislature;
• Establishing a Security Council of trusted and influential residents - responsible to the region and the constitution - which oversee the region's security and respond to threats as they arise;
• A contemporary endorsement trading scheme which rather than discouraging non-executive nations from gaining endorsements, encourages endorsement trading – ultimately aiding in the North Pacific's retention of newcomers and its overall regional security.

* See SC# 33, 34, 49, 63, 129, 168 169.

Recognizing that as a result of these reforms, the North Pacific has been transformed into one of the most stable and prosperous feeder regions in NationStates. As a path for democratic reform, the North Pacific's success is one that other regions have learnt from, adopted and benefited from, and indeed, one the World Assembly hopes to widely encourage as a model example of democracy in action,

[A clause with regards to TNP's active involvement in WA Affairs]

[A clause highlighting TNP's military activity. Emphasizing its role in the NLO liberation and TSP's liberations and the Osi's lib against Gatesville. Anybody can invade a UCR. A WA resolution should be a record of achievements and Gameplay events that will be remembered forever. ]

Hereby,

1. Commends the North Pacific.

[Cerian Quilor]

That's a fair point.

[Tinhampton]

I've taken Unibot's suggestions into account in order to conjure up a second draft (BETA version) of this resolution. What do y'all think of it?

[Cerian Quilor]

"*: See SC#33, 34, 49, 63, 129, 168, and 169."

I think this part was him referring to the bit where you mention the collection of commended residents. Could be wrong.

[Tinhampton]

"*: See SC#33, 34, 49, 63, 129, 168, and 169."

I think this part was him referring to the bit where you mention the collection of commended residents. Could be wrong.

Unibot's list, and their relevance to the TNP invaders:

• SC#33: Condemn Durkidurkastan II (a direct mention and Condemnation of Durk)
• SC#34: Commend Ananke II (Puppetmaster liberation)
• SC#49: Commend Crazy girl (Also Puppetmaster)
• SC#63: Commend Ballotonia (Puppetmaster... again)
• SC#129: Commend Eluvatar (Shoeless Joe, Lewis & Clark)
• SC#168: Commend Westwind (Puppetmaster once again, Pixiedance)
• SC#169: Commend Evil Wolf (Durk, twice)

A quick read of all aforementioned proposals will reveal only a single mention of one of the Commendees in my proposal (which states that Flemingovia was the elected WA Delegate of TNP, and that was in October 2010).

[Cerian Quilor]

I stand corrected, yes.

[Unibot III]

Yes, that was the point of the citation.

I don't know how I feel about your edits, Tinhampton. The "multiverse" reference seems needlessly roleplay-esque, a bit too... individualistic... and I think my "Recognizing" hit the message home (so to speak) better. But I'm notoriously fickle, so take my suggestions with a grain of salt.

One thing I will say is, I don't think it would be a good idea to give me co-authorship. I'm personna non grata in TNP and I wouldn't want to start a political crisis (like TNP having to vote against their own commendation) when this should be a celebratory occasion for the nominee. The author shouldn't take centre stage. Thanks for the offer, however. I really appreciate it.

I think your edits to the military and WA section are much stronger than the original. By changing the focus, you've focused on more the meat of NPA's activities - it tends to be those bigger liberation efforts that signify commendable contributions. A WA resolution is kind of like a history book, a testament to a different time for posterity to read. (Plus big regions are more likely to vote 'yes' when they get name checked. )

[Tinhampton]

The "multiverse" was always there. Regardless, co-authoring removed and Draft 2 consolidated as primary draft. Any more complaints y'all wish to make?

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

The "multiverse" was always there. Regardless, co-authoring removed and Draft 2 consolidated as primary draft. Any more complaints y'all wish to make?

They're not complaints, they're critiques. People have been trying to help you - your first draft was nowhere near good enough, though I'm sure you thought it was without flaw.

[Unibot III]

The "multiverse" was always there. Regardless, co-authoring removed and Draft 2 consolidated as primary draft. Any more complaints y'all wish to make?

My next complaint would be to slow down. No good has ever come out of rushing a resolution. Seriously. Don't think about submitting this draft for at least another week or two. A good draft takes about a month to marinate. There's never any sense in moving a resolution to vote before it's ready - it's got to stay on the books forever.

I would take some time to ask old timers in TNP to comment. Ask them what they think are the strengths of the region are. You may learn some important features about the region.

I'll have some finer points to bring up about the language in due course.

[Myrth]

So... any other complaints (other than about TNP's uncommendability) that need to be made here?

Mentioning TNP's resilience in the face of a series of coups throughout its history would make sense. I'm sure a TNP history buff could fill you in.

The fact that their government has been so poor in the past that they've been kicked out numerous times and had to be bailed out by outside help using shady tactics is hardly something to praise.

I would encourage the author, rather than say "they have lots of endos" etc. emphasize how TNP's path to reform has helped other regions too - because they've served as a model for democratic reform. For example, TSP and Osiris and Lazarus all looked to TNP's SC as a great success - and I think all GCRs are starting to recognize the value of endorsement trading.

Carefully managed centralised control of the delegacy and lieutenants seems to have stood the test of time, so lauding it as a model government above all others is also spurious.

[Canton Empire]

The NLO was not longstanding.

[Unibot III]

Mentioning TNP's resilience in the face of a series of coups throughout its history would make sense. I'm sure a TNP history buff could fill you in.

The fact that their government has been so poor in the past that they've been kicked out numerous times and had to be bailed out by outside help using shady tactics is hardly something to praise.

I assume you think we should commend the NPO for their part in those coups then?

Carefully managed centralised control of the delegacy and lieutenants seems to have stood the test of time, so lauding it as a model government above all others is also spurious.

I was unaware the NPO voted to elect its Consuls and Delegate. Fascinating.

[Hravedia]

I'm not that familiar with the North Pacific in general as well as the Security Council and what is viewed as commendable or not, so I won't try to say that TNP is 'uncommendable' or whatever, but I would like to comment on this particular thing about the coups d'état in the North Pacific as well as the clause about the actions of the North Pacific Army. More specifically, I don't see how either is 'unique' in the sense that it is worthy to be commended by the Security Council. The resolution states that 'TNP have endeavored after each liberation to recover and prevent future such events in a manner'. Doesn't that happen after every coup in a Game Created Region? And aren't many of these measures 'democratic' as well? Looking at that list, I don't see anything that shouldn't be expected of a self-proclaimed democratic region such as the North Pacific.

Isn't 'upholding the rule of law and the supremacy of the legislature' essential for every such democratic region? If so, should we commend all regions that uphold the rule of law? It would seem to me that we have many of those.

Furthermore, the resolution presents the actions of the North Pacific Army in various regions which underwent coups, such as Lazarus. I specifically remember that during the Lazarus coup, virtually every regional government, with few exceptions, supported the Lazarene Underground State. A quick search will show that in the other coups too, a significant number of regions supported the 'legal' governments of both Osiris and the South Pacific. Should these regions be commended as well? Speaking of Lazarus, you seem to have a minor factual error there. The New Lazarene Order was not a long-standing puppet regime of the New Pacific Order, only being proclaimed after the April 2015 coup. The long-standing puppet regime would be the People's Republic of Lazarus which was created after the controversial purge of Lazarene citizens which did not serve the interests of the Pacific in the region.

There is no doubt that the North Pacific is extremely influential in the World Assembly. But other than their supremacy in that body, I don't see how many of those achievements mentioned in this resolution could not be applied to a myriad of other regions.

[Unibot III]

I'm not that familiar with the North Pacific in general as well as the Security Council and what is viewed as commendable or not, so I won't try to say that TNP is 'uncommendable' or whatever, but I would like to comment on this particular thing about the coups d'état in the North Pacific as well as the clause about the actions of the North Pacific Army. More specifically, I don't see how either is 'unique' in the sense that it is worthy to be commended by the Security Council. The resolution states that 'TNP have endeavored after each liberation to recover and prevent future such events in a manner'. Doesn't that happen after every coup in a Game Created Region? And aren't many of these measures 'democratic' as well? Looking at that list, I don't see anything that shouldn't be expected of a self-proclaimed democratic region such as the North Pacific.

Isn't 'upholding the rule of law and the supremacy of the legislature' essential for every such democratic region? If so, should we commend all regions that uphold the rule of law? It would seem to me that we have many of those.

Furthermore, the resolution presents the actions of the North Pacific Army in various regions which underwent coups, such as Lazarus. I specifically remember that during the Lazarus coup, virtually every regional government, with few exceptions, supported the Lazarene Underground State. A quick search will show that in the other coups too, a significant number of regions supported the 'legal' governments of both Osiris and the South Pacific. Should these regions be commended as well? Speaking of Lazarus, you seem to have a minor factual error there. The New Lazarene Order was not a long-standing puppet regime of the New Pacific Order, only being proclaimed after the April 2015 coup. The long-standing puppet regime would be the People's Republic of Lazarus which was created after the controversial purge of Lazarene citizens which did not serve the interests of the Pacific in the region.

There is no doubt that the North Pacific is extremely influential in the World Assembly. But other than their supremacy in that body, I don't see how many of those achievements mentioned in this resolution could not be applied to a myriad of other regions.

I believe NPA's members played a central role in the Lazarus liberation war-room, for starters.

Likewise, the approach the North Pacific took to responding to its internal security was unique when they did it: constitutionalizing rights, reforming its government, creating a democratized Security Council and later, encouraging endorsement activity. It's precisely the opposite way a lot of feederites wanted TNP to go - they thought TNP needed to "toughen up" and emulate the NPO.

Since then, TNP's reforms throughout 'the teens' have been so successful, TNP's democratic security structure is now basically synonymous with good governance. When Osiris or TSP or Lazarus or whoever is couped, they always look to TNP's path to democratic and security reform for answers and solutions.

[Myrth]

The fact that their government has been so poor in the past that they've been kicked out numerous times and had to be bailed out by outside help using shady tactics is hardly something to praise.

I assume you think we should commend the NPO for their part in those coups then?

I believe the NPO has consistently denied any involvement in these coups.

Carefully managed centralised control of the delegacy and lieutenants seems to have stood the test of time, so lauding it as a model government above all others is also spurious.

I was unaware the NPO voted to elect its Consuls and Delegate. Fascinating.

I don't believe I said we did any such thing.

[Unibot III]

I believe the NPO has consistently denied any involvement in these coups.

Correct, but irrelevant to whether or not NPO actually was involved in the coups (which were orchestrated by two NPO senators.)

It's hard to deny involvement when your own delegate, Francos Spain, left the Pacific to assist in the coup - only to be banned by Ballotonia (and leave the game in a fit faking death.) Of course, no involvement. None at all. Moving on here... I assume next you'll be claiming NLO was actually the work of rogue NPO senators too (oh wait, yes, you guys are.)

I don't believe I said we did any such thing.

You certainly were implying that TNP and NPO's security apparatuses resembled one another.

[Myrth]

I believe the NPO has consistently denied any involvement in these coups.

Correct, but irrelevant to whether or not NPO actually was involved in the coups (which were orchestrated by two NPO senators.)

It's hard to deny involvement when your own delegate, Francos Spain, left the Pacific to assist in the coup - only to be banned by Ballotonia (and leave the game in a fit faking death.) Of course, no involvement. None at all. Moving on here... I assume next you'll be claiming NLO was actually the work of rogue NPO senators too (oh wait, yes, you guys are.)

I never said they didn't take advantage of the situation. Just that they didn't orchestrate it.

I don't believe I said we did any such thing.

You certainly were implying that TNP and NPO's security apparatuses resembled one another.

You misunderstand. I meant that the NPO's security apparatus is almost the exact opposite and has ensured stability for 10+ years. If we're going to partly base a commendation on resilience to attempts to overthrow the governing regime, then the Pacific deserves commendation.