[Abandoned] Condemn The Land of Kings and Emperors

by **Cormac Stark** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:51 pm

Condemn The Land of Kings and Emperors
A resolution to express shock and dismay at a nation or region.

Category: Condemnation | Nominee: The Land of Kings and Emperors| Proposed by: Cormac Stark

Description: The Security Council:

Reproaching The Land of Kings and Emperors for its infamous status as one of the oldest and most populous imperialist regions in the world, and one of the three constituent regions of the United Imperial Armed Forces (UIAF);

Asserting that imperialism, particularly when carried out through acts of aggression against peaceful regional communities, is a grave affront to the interregional peace and goodwill that this institution aims to promote and advance;

Rebuking The Land of Kings and Emperors for also being one of the largest invader regions in the world, committed to the unprovoked, often random, and frequently petty invasion of peaceful regional communities;

Denouncing The Land of Kings and Emperors for the following heinous acts throughout its history:

Unprovoked invasion and occupation of many regions, and support for others' invasions and occupations, including but by no means limited to UIAF occupations of The True Rebirth, Middle Earth, New Zealand, Australia, Slavia, Scotland, Slavya, Canada, and Eastern Europe;
Pursuit of tag raiding, in which The Land of Kings and Emperors has engaged in hundreds of brief invasions to degrade and disrupt sovereign regional communities, without provocation and for the purpose of military training;
Establishment of a formal alliance with and support for the destruction of regions and permanent displacement of their communities by The Black Riders, condemned by this Security Council for atrocities committed against thousands of regional communities throughout the world, and a close working partnership with another notorious and condemned invader region, The Black Hawks;
Unreasonable hostility against regions and organizations committed to the defense of vulnerable regional communities, particularly declared wars against the Founderless Regions Alliance and the United Defenders League, used to rationalize invasion and damage of regions with even the loosest of ties to these organizations;
Participation in an invasion of The Rejected Realms led by The New Inquisition, at the time a close ally of The Land of Kings and Emperors and now a fellow UIAF constituent region, and repeated disregard and disrespect for the sovereignty of other prominent regions;
Absurd and outrageous claims of sovereignty over regional territory in which communities have repelled colonization attempts by The Land of Kings and Emperors, such as Moldavia and Ilum, which the Security Council applauds for their courage and defiance in the face of unjustified aggression;

Affirming that this history of unprovoked belligerence by The Land of Kings and Emperors contradicts the interregional values promoted by this Security Council: peace, cooperation, and the sovereign self-determination of regional communities;

Declaring that the flagrant acts of imperialist aggression carried out by The Land of Kings and Emperors are indicative of a disreputable, rogue regime with no respect for the sovereignty of other regional communities or for the collective desire for peace and goodwill by the nations and regions of the world, here assembled:

Hereby Condemns The Land of Kings and Emperors.

by **Consular** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:33 pm

For someone who seemed to want out of 'mainstream' gameplay, you sure are on something of a crusade lately.

by **Cormac Stark** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:34 pm

Consular wrote:For someone who seemed to want out of 'mainstream' gameplay, you sure are on something of a crusade lately.

Well, I was no good at staying away and now I'm back in, so yes, crusading crusader is crusaderly crusading.

by **Zaolat** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:48 pm

I'm against this, I think The LKE has done commendable work, especially towards the UDL. I leave this quote from Avakael here:

If the UDL is an NGO, then the LKE is very clearly conducting a war on terrorism. Terrorism perpetuated by the United Defenders League, lead by a man who has shaped his organization to have a culture of wishing to wear tights, live in forests, and possibly even dress up as furries, something which only Todd McCloud may do. I believe this war, therefore, should not be a matter of raiding and defending. It's a matter of moral decency. Don't wear tights. Don't live in forests. Don't dress up and roleplay as animals. It's wrong, and the LKE is taking the initiative to exterminate this horrible organization.

by **Klaus Devestatorie** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:56 pm

Let the WASC be advised that I may or may not have been totally fucking stoned when I wrote that. :|

by **Cormac Stark** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:02 pm

Zaolat wrote:I'm against this, I think The LKE has done commendable work, especially towards the UDL.

I am absolutely stunned that an invader opposes the condemnation of an invader region that doesn't want one.

Do you think The LKE did commendable work toward Osiris when it deployed in support of The Dourian Embassy, well before any plan between Osiris and the UIAF? Do you think The LKE did commendable work against The Rejected Realms, another region you once called home? Do you think it did commendable work against the FRA, former Archchancellor?

by **Ivo Mullur** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:06 pm

If the UDL is an NGO, then the LKE is very clearly conducting a war on terrorism. Terrorism perpetuated by the United Defenders League, lead by a man who has shaped his organization to have a culture of wishing to wear tights, live in forests, and possibly even dress up as furries, something which only Todd McCloud may do. I believe this war, therefore, should not be a matter of raiding and defending. It's a matter of moral decency. Don't wear tights. Don't live in forests. Don't dress up and roleplay as animals. It's wrong, and the LKE is taking the initiative to exterminate this horrible organization.

This... this will forever be one of my favorite quotes. If a "like" system were to be ever implemented on the NS forums, this would be at the top of my to-be-liked list.

by **Onderkelkia** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:12 pm

The allegations made in support of this resolution represent largely the same nonsense which the Security Council correctly voted down twice against the LKE's close ally The New Inquisition. Evidently, for his latest campaign of terror by WA drafting, Cormac wanted to try a variation on an old theme.

Needless to say, the entirety of this resolution deliberately misrepresents the LKE's actions and the circumstances involved.

Cormac Stark wrote:another region you once called home?

Cormac Stark wrote:former Archchancellor?

You are in no position to lecture anyone as to loyalty to their former affiliations, Cormac.

That is unless you wish to write your own condemnation, my dear former Foreign Minister.

by **Cormac Stark** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:18 pm

Onderkelkia wrote:The allegations made in support of this resolution represent largely the same nonsense which the Security Council correctly voted down twice against the LKE's close ally The New Inquisition. Evidently, for his latest campaign of terror by WA drafting, Cormac wanted to try a variation on an old theme.

That was then, a Feeder treaty or two ago. This is now. We'll see how it goes.

Onderkelkia wrote:Needless to say, the entirety of this resolution deliberately misrepresents the LKE's actions and the circumstances involved.

Does it? I fail to see how.

Onderkelkia wrote:You are in no position to lecture anyone as to loyalty to their former affiliations, Cormac.

That is unless you wish to write your own condemnation, my dear former Foreign Minister.

I already get called out for this all the time, it's about time some others do as well. I recognize that I'm in no position to call them out; neither are most of the people who call me out.

In regard to writing my own condemnation, that would be pretty entertaining. I'll get back to you on that.

by **Tim-Opolis** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:20 pm

Speaking out of my individual views, as a Defender and an FRA Ranger, I am in earnest support of such a resolution. The Land of Kings and Emperors have gotten away from condemnation for far too long through their employment of terms such as "Imperialist" to mitigate the effects of its destructive actions against sovereign regions across Nationstates. While, certainly, some of their actions such as their efforts in the destruction of Nazi Europe can applauded, there is too much belligerence against innocent regions in their history to ignore. I, personally, sincerely hope that this resolution will find passage within the hallowed halls of this Security Council.

Tim-Opolis
FRA Ranger
Founder of Spiritus

by **Zaolat** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:23 pm

Cormac Stark wrote:
Zaolat wrote:I'm against this, I think The LKE has done commendable work, especially towards the UDL.

I am absolutely stunned that an invader opposes the condemnation of an invader region that doesn't want one.

Do you think The LKE did commendable work toward Osiris when it deployed in support of The Dourian Embassy, well before any plan between Osiris and the UIAF? Do you think The LKE did commendable work against The Rejected Realms, another region you once called home? Do you think it did commendable work against the FRA, former Archchancellor?

I think The LKE should be Commended for promoting and playing their own version of Gameplay in this game instead. Objectively and without moralism, the things that they have done are true to what they believe. Personally, for instance I think war in NS is dumb for the most part (Many are controversial in inanity and with not all that well thought out reasons, a la Laz & Osi). The LKE are at war with the FRA, and in a gameplay sense it's not wrong.

Regardless of the reasons why they are, it's part of how they work and believe unlike other wars (Though the Soc vs Fasch wars are part of what they believe and they stick to them as well). I commend them for sticking to their principles and playing the game in a different way than others, just as GCRs tend to play the game slightly differently from UCRs to some degree. 10KI/TITO plays it differently from the FRA, The LKE plays it differently from TBR, etc etc.

by **Cormac Stark** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:27 pm

Tim-Opolis wrote:Speaking out of my individual views, as a Defender and an FRA Ranger, I am in earnest support of such a resolution. The Land of Kings and Emperors have gotten away from condemnation for far too long through their employment of terms such as "Imperialist" to mitigate the effects of its destructive actions against sovereign regions across Nationstates. While, certainly, some of their actions such as their efforts in the destruction of Nazi Europe can applauded, there is too much belligerence against innocent regions in their history to ignore. I, personally, sincerely hope that this resolution will find passage within the hallowed halls of this Security Council.

Tim-Opolis
FRA Ranger
Founder of Spiritus

I love you. Now, run for cover, NES is coming. :lol:

by **RiderSyl** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:30 pm

I would offer my opinion, but it's going to be struck down unless it favors the author's proposal, since I'm an invader and this targets invaders.

So, have fun with your circlejerk.

by **Zaolat** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:31 pm

Ridersyl wrote:I would offer my opinion, but it's going to be struck down unless it favors the author's proposal, since I'm an invader and this targets invaders.

So, have fun with your circlejerk.

Imperialists*

by **Cormac Stark** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:33 pm

Zaolat wrote:
Ridersyl wrote:I would offer my opinion, but it's going to be struck down unless it favors the author's proposal, since I'm an invader and this targets invaders.

So, have fun with your circlejerk.

Imperialists*

They voluntarily imposed the Invader tag on their region. Let's not quibble.

Syl, feel free to offer your opinion. I may not agree with it but that's no reason not to offer it and, who knows, I may change something about the draft because of it, I've done so in all three of my other proposals thus far.

by **Pauline Bonaparte** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:35 pm

I condemn this act of terror by Cormac in the harshest terms. Think of all the teenage children in LKE you shall be tearing from their mothers and fathers by this gross, criminal, terrorist act!

by **Evil Wolf** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:40 pm

What's this? Condemn The Land of Kings and Emperors for "Imperialism"? No, no, no, I demand you write "Condemn Gatesville" right this instant! I don't care if the region was refounded, their legacy is way more menacing and interesting!

I mean, Gatesville didn't "participate" in an invasion of a useless sinker with no ban button, they successfully lead coups against several Feeders. Gatesville is far more deserving and the very definition of an evil imperialist empire, complete with colonies (Gatesville Franchises). I mean, if you're going to skip Gatesville, you might as well start using the word "imperialist" like it's the magic key one uses for an instant Condemn, that's how meaningless you'd have made Condemns based upon actual Imperialism.

by **Onderkelkia** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:41 pm

Cormac Stark wrote:
Zaolat wrote:Imperialists*

They voluntarily imposed the Invader tag on their region. Let's not quibble.

The invader tag is on the LKE (as it is on several other prominent Imperialist regions) because the purpose of tags is to show new members the range of activities which are carried out frequently in our region. We conduct a substantial number of offensive operations, so new members looking to invade within a wider package are able to take the opportunity up as part of the LKE armed forces. We are also tagged "Industrial", "Past Tech" and "Steampunk" to reflect the different types of role-play which take place on our forums; no one would characterise the LKE as a "Past Tech" region in consequence of this.

We do not regard the invader tag as attaching the LKE's affiliation to the Raider sphere. If we did regard it as such, we would not use it, as anyone with the slightest knowledge of the LKE's position on this issue - a position which has been maintained consistently since our founding in 2005 - would appreciate.

The presence of this tag has never led anyone to suggest that the LKE is an invader region before. If it had, we would have removed it to avoid confusion.

by **KaelThas Quilor** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:42 pm

I call you out all the time for changing sides, and yet, I've never changed sides. I'm fully qualified to call you out for that.

This is a pile of heaping nonsense. Imperialism is as much an affront to interregional peace and goodwill as defenderism is, butting its head into every region it can and fomenting internal and external unrest to make sure everyone sees things their way.

I didn't know military training was somehow a terrible thing, by the way.

Define "Unreasonable hostility". Both the FRA and the UDL attacked the sovereignty of the LKE (including the FRA trying to invade and aggressively refound a region that was a colony of the LKE - and more importantly, wasn't even a colony the LKE had seized into being a holding - so the FRA can't even make a case they were trying to 'liberate' anything.

Key words with your comments on the empire being 'at times', whereas most LKE colonies joined the LKE voluntarily and stay with the LKE voluntarily (When TIL expressed a desire to leave, for example, Onder handed the founder back to a native and let it depart).

Since when has the Security Council, quite possibly the most laughably grudge-festing hellhole of partisan sniping and petty politicking the NS GP world has ever seen ever been dedicated to peace, cooperation or anything as noble as the 'sovereign self-determination of regional communities?' We're talking about a body that passed Liberate NAZI Europe and a host of other abominably useless or pointlessly conflictive and divisive resolutions.

No respect for the sovereignty of other regional communities? Which organization is it that vote stacks to influence the vote elsewhere?

This is drivel, nonsense and ideology masked as a real proposition. Cormac never wanted to leave GP, or he would have actually left GP instead of using first a paper thin disguise and then jumping back in whole-hog. You decry GP as toxic, and then you ramp the toxicity levels up to eleven by proposing the repeal of a condemnation of unabashed and unapologetic multiple time forum destroyers and then proposing this, a resolution so blantantly and pointlessly partisan as to make the ideal of the Security Ccouncil you laud in this resolution even more of a distant prospect.

by **RiderSyl** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:45 pm

Cormac Stark wrote:Syl, feel free to offer your opinion. I may not agree with it but that's no reason not to offer it and, who knows, I may change something about the draft because of it, I've done so in all three of my other proposals thus far.

I appreciate that, but after seeing how Zaolat was responded to here;

Cormac Stark wrote:I am absolutely stunned that an invader opposes the condemnation of an invader region that doesn't want one.

I feel like there's really no healthy discussion to be had, and no amount of friendly offering will change that. Most invaders/imperialists will oppose this, most defenders will support this. It's a party line issue and the arguments, if any, will be split down that line, which just makes everything boring.

I'll stick to the weird polarity of the Mahaj/Evil Wolf commendations. Those are more fun.

by **Cormac Stark** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:10 pm

KaelThas Quilor wrote:I call you out all the time for changing sides, and yet, I've never changed sides. I'm fully qualified to call you out for that.

Sure. The thing is, and this is the important part: I don't care.

KaelThas Quilor wrote:This is a pile of heaping nonsense. Imperialism is as much an affront to interregional peace and goodwill as defenderism is, butting its head into every region it can and fomenting internal and external unrest to make sure everyone sees things their way.

Well, even if we accept your premise in regard to defending -- which I don't -- defenders still are not invading regions and imposing their will upon the communities residing in those regions, sometimes even outright destroying the regions as they exist and turning them into trophies. That is the bottom line of imperialism, as with invaderism, and no amount of nuance or ideological argumentation is going to change that.

KaelThas Quilor wrote:I didn't know military training was somehow a terrible thing, by the way.

"Military training" sounds innocuous enough -- which is why you call it that -- until one dissects what you're actually doing. You're invading regions that have done nothing wrong to you or anyone else, that are being invaded just because they are vulnerable. You're taking their Delegacies away from the communities to whom they rightfully belong. Once in their Delegacies, you are imposing your own World Factbook Entries, which boast of how you've conquered them. You then impose your flag over theirs, or over their choice of no flag, to be sure you're delivering the point home that they're conquered.

And this is just what you do for training. You do far worse to "enemy regions," also known as regions that have an embassy with the wrong place at the wrong time and have no idea what's going on.

KaelThas Quilor wrote:Define "Unreasonable hostility". Both the FRA and the UDL attacked the sovereignty of the LKE (including the FRA trying to invade and aggressively refound a region that was a colony of the LKE - and more importantly, wasn't even a colony the LKE had seized into being a holding - so the FRA can't even make a case they were trying to 'liberate' anything.

Okay, but that's the FRA, and that still wasn't significant enough to justify war. The LKE's grievance with the UDL is the founding of The Dominion of Munster, a region that was not an LKE colony but only bore some resemblance to one. The actual colony remained untouched and remained under LKE control. For that very small thing, the LKE declared war on the UDL and uses that war to rationalize the damage and destruction of regions that are only loosely connected to the UDL, if at all. If that isn't unreasonable, I have no idea what is.

KaelThas Quilor wrote:Key words with your comments on the empire being 'at times', whereas most LKE colonies joined the LKE voluntarily and stay with the LKE voluntarily (When TIL expressed a desire to leave, for example, Onder handed the founder back to a native and let it depart).

Some colonies voluntarily joined, but others were forced into the empire. The clause is accurate.

KaelThas Quilor wrote:Since when has the Security Council, quite possibly the most laughably grudge-festing hellhole of partisan sniping and petty politicking the NS GP world has ever seen ever been dedicated to peace, cooperation or anything as noble as the 'sovereign self-determination of regional communities?' We're talking about a body that passed Liberate NAZI Europe and a host of other abominably useless or pointlessly conflictive and divisive resolutions.

Whatever its history, the stated ideals of the Security Council are "spreading interregional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary." Past failings don't mean we shouldn't strive to make the institution live up to that mission statement. At its best times, when it has liberated regions under threat of total destruction and condemned those who have posed that threat, it has lived up to that mission statement.

KaelThas Quilor wrote:No respect for the sovereignty of other regional communities? Which organization is it that vote stacks to influence the vote elsewhere?

Let's not pretend that imperialists don't do this.

KaelThas Quilor wrote:This is drivel, nonsense and ideology masked as a real proposition. Cormac never wanted to leave GP, or he would have actually left GP instead of using first a paper thin disguise and then jumping back in whole-hog. You decry GP as toxic, and then you ramp the toxicity levels up to eleven by proposing the repeal of a condemnation of unabashed and unapologetic multiple time forum destroyers and then proposing this, a resolution so blantantly and pointlessly partisan as to make the ideal of the Security Ccouncil you laud in this resolution even more of a distant prospect.

I feel I've hit a nerve.

by **Solorni** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:37 pm

Considering all the good LKE has done in terms of its long and illustrious span, in spreading gameplay culture and setting the highest possible standards on politics... this simply is nuts. Cormac is simply trying way too hard to fit in with defenders or showing us he's really defender now.

by **KaelThas Quilor** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:44 pm

Cormac, I have no nerves to hit. This is a game.

I enjoy the invective and the arguing and the bickering. That's why I play this game.

And no, Imperialists don't go into the GCRs and votestack their way into changing the way regions behave. That's all the UDL.

EDIT: While I intend to leave most of my reply to your reply until I've slept some (its rather late here), let me just add this:

Past failings don't mean we shouldn't strive to make the institution live up to that mission statement.

You use 'past failings' as if the SC has succeeded ever in spreading 'peace' and 'cooperation'. The Security Council, even on its best days, never succeeds at either. Liberations, whatever the reason, are neither peaceful nor cooperative. Commendations and condemnations have nothing to do with peace, and little to do with cooperation.

The Security Council is a platform for airing grievances and partisan politicks. Trying to condemn those you don't like Is a perfectly legitimate tactic (though I'd wish you'd make a better effort at it than this poor excuse). However, trying to use the excuse the SC is for more than petty partisan politics...while being nothing but petty and partisan with your four resolutions is just embarrassing.

by **Tim-Opolis** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:46 pm

Solorni wrote:Considering all the good LKE has done in terms of its long and illustrious span, in spreading gameplay culture and setting the highest possible standards on politics... this simply is nuts. Cormac is simply trying way too hard to fit in with defenders or showing us he's really defender now.

So, is that before it's violated the regional sovereignty of other regions countless times, causing significant damage to communities who had put many years in building themselves, or after?

-Tim-Opolis
FRA Ranger
Founder of Spiritus.

by **Solorni** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:53 pm

Tim-Opolis wrote:
Solorni wrote:Considering all the good LKE has done in terms of its long and illustrious span, in spreading gameplay culture and setting the highest possible standards on politics... this simply is nuts. Cormac is simply trying way too hard to fit in with defenders or showing us he's really defender now.

So, is that before it's violated the regional sovereignty of other regions countless times, causing significant damage to communities who had put many years in building themselves, or after?

-Tim-Opolis
FRA Ranger
Founder of Spiritus.

Even if we go by the more extremist defender argument that exercising a regions free rights by raiding regions which lack sovereignty, the LKE has still done a lot of great things in terms of the regions it has built up and influenced in later generations. Primarily premier political regions such as Europeia which are unmatched by defender regions in terms of development, quality and sophistication.

[Abandoned] Condemn The Land of Kings and Emperors

[Abandoned] Condemn The Land of Kings and Emperors

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