NATION

PASSWORD

[Submitted] Liberate Haven

A chamber dedicated to the dissemination of inter-regional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.

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Lucino
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Founded: Jan 17, 2006
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Postby Lucino » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:08 am

Mallorea and Riva wrote:
Freihafen wrote:I uh... I don't really have any conspiracy theories. I make a case that Haven was involved in the coup of TSP. Links are in the OP. Take it or leave it as you will.


I'm beginning to think you don't know what "proof" means, but that ultimately has no standing on why this is a terrible proposal.


Why does Haven have such a target on it's back for R/D crowd? Isn't it obvious that we plainly don't want to play your game? Isn't it obvious that nearly the entire RP community doesn't want anything to do with this? Shouldn't it have been plainly obvious what would come abput before you clicked "submit"?

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Democratic Koyro
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Postby Democratic Koyro » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:09 am

Mallorea and Riva wrote:
Prekonate wrote:None of which affected the proposal apparently...what happened to changing the "heavily involved" wording? I thought we made significant progress on that. If you're just going to pick through the discussion for points supporting your original wording, why discuss at all?

I stated somewhere along the way that upon further reading I was content with it because it states that regions like haven were "heavily involved", so it allowed for a more lenient interpretation of Haven's actions.


You don't have any proof. You keep talking about it but don't link it.
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Soldati Senza Confini
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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:09 am

Mallorea and Riva wrote:
Freihafen wrote:Wow.

Would you by any chance care to share your conspiracy theories with us, please?

I uh... I don't really have any conspiracy theories. I make a case that Haven was involved in the coup of TSP. Links are in the OP. Take it or leave it as you will.


You only have one, and one that doesn't involve Haven as a region, but certain members of Haven which acted independently as far as I can read into it.

Your accusation that they were involved as a region doesn't make any sense.
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Vitaphone Racing
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Founded: Aug 25, 2009
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Postby Vitaphone Racing » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:10 am

Lucino wrote:
Mallorea and Riva wrote:


I'm beginning to think you don't know what "proof" means, but that ultimately has no standing on why this is a terrible proposal.


Why does Haven have such a target on it's back for R/D crowd? Isn't it obvious that we plainly don't want to play your game? Isn't it obvious that nearly the entire RP community doesn't want anything to do with this? Shouldn't it have been plainly obvious what would come abput before you clicked "submit"?

It's what happens when hurt feelings are left to brood.
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Tano
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Postby Tano » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:11 am

The Serbian Empire wrote:
Tano wrote:We don't do it to expel the occupants. We do it to capture the region itself.

Capturing the region often involves such activity though.

But griefign is all about intent. If you capture a region in order to purposefully eject the natives and nothing more, then in most cases that could be construed as griefing. But in my experiance, that is not the intent or goal.
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Oaledonia
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Postby Oaledonia » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:12 am

Mallorea and Riva wrote:
Freihafen wrote:Wow.

Would you by any chance care to share your conspiracy theories with us, please?

I uh... I don't really have any conspiracy theories. I make a case that Haven was involved in the coup of TSP. Links are in the OP. Take it or leave it as you will.

The same link you had posted originally? Seriously? Real evidence, enough bullshit.

That's a pure speculation with links, and you aren't even sure that IF they did support it, how much they actually did.
Last edited by Wikipe-tan on January 13, 2006 4:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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The Serbian Empire
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:13 am

Tano wrote:
The Serbian Empire wrote:Capturing the region often involves such activity though.

But griefign is all about intent. If you capture a region in order to purposefully eject the natives and nothing more, then in most cases that could be construed as griefing. But in my experiance, that is not the intent or goal.

It's little more than a legal gameside cover for real rulebreakers to hide underneath. They can always say they're raiding for power even when the intent is far more malicious.
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Vitaphone Racing
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Founded: Aug 25, 2009
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Postby Vitaphone Racing » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:14 am

Oaledonia wrote:
Mallorea and Riva wrote:I uh... I don't really have any conspiracy theories. I make a case that Haven was involved in the coup of TSP. Links are in the OP. Take it or leave it as you will.

The same link you had posted originally? Seriously? Real evidence, enough bullshit.

That's a pure speculation with links, and you aren't even sure that IF they did support it, how much they actually did.

It's about as relevant as the price of fish in China anyway. Some Havenites participating in a raid is no equivalent to Haven been a raiding region. It's a seriously weak argument but it's one that's concerning nonetheless.
Parhe on my Asian-ness.
Parhe wrote:Guess what, maybe you don't know what it is like to be Asian.

ayy lmao

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Democratic Koyro
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Postby Democratic Koyro » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:15 am

Lucino wrote:
Mallorea and Riva wrote:


I'm beginning to think you don't know what "proof" means, but that ultimately has no standing on why this is a terrible proposal.


Why does Haven have such a target on it's back for R/D crowd? Isn't it obvious that we plainly don't want to play your game? Isn't it obvious that nearly the entire RP community doesn't want anything to do with this? Shouldn't it have been plainly obvious what would come abput before you clicked "submit"?


Well, Mall has a direct conflict of interest here. It's more for his own personal vengeance than anything else.
THERMOBARIC THERMITE

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Mallorea and Riva
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Founded: Sep 29, 2010
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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:15 am

Oaledonia wrote:
Mallorea and Riva wrote:I uh... I don't really have any conspiracy theories. I make a case that Haven was involved in the coup of TSP. Links are in the OP. Take it or leave it as you will.

The same link you had posted originally? Seriously? Real evidence, enough bullshit.

That's a pure speculation with links, and you aren't even sure that IF they did support it, how much they actually did.

How could I have linked originally to a post which occurred later in the thread? >.>
Democratic Koyro wrote:
Lucino wrote:
I'm beginning to think you don't know what "proof" means, but that ultimately has no standing on why this is a terrible proposal.


Why does Haven have such a target on it's back for R/D crowd? Isn't it obvious that we plainly don't want to play your game? Isn't it obvious that nearly the entire RP community doesn't want anything to do with this? Shouldn't it have been plainly obvious what would come abput before you clicked "submit"?


Well, Mall has a direct conflict of interest here. It's more for his own personal vengeance than anything else.
Someone is going to have to explain why there is an assumption that I love TSP.
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Elke and Elba
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Founded: Aug 24, 2009
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Postby Elke and Elba » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:16 am

Soldati senza confini wrote:
Mallorea and Riva wrote:I uh... I don't really have any conspiracy theories. I make a case that Haven was involved in the coup of TSP. Links are in the OP. Take it or leave it as you will.


You only have one, and one that doesn't involve Haven as a region, but certain members of Haven which acted independently as far as I can read into it.

Your accusation that they were involved as a region doesn't make any sense.


Good logic and right on.

So, do we actually, eh, condemn Catholic because Auralia decided to cheat to get a commendation? Or eh, attack Milo for Mall's action because they are both raider?

The logic in this proposal is... can't find it.
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Soldati Senza Confini
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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:17 am

Democratic Koyro wrote:
Lucino wrote:
I'm beginning to think you don't know what "proof" means, but that ultimately has no standing on why this is a terrible proposal.


Why does Haven have such a target on it's back for R/D crowd? Isn't it obvious that we plainly don't want to play your game? Isn't it obvious that nearly the entire RP community doesn't want anything to do with this? Shouldn't it have been plainly obvious what would come abput before you clicked "submit"?


Well, Mall has a direct conflict of interest here. It's more for his own personal vengeance than anything else.


What do you mean "personal vengeance"? If this is a vendetta, I don't think it'd have been a really flimsy proposal.
Soldati senza confini: Better than an iPod in shuffle more with 20,000 songs.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

Current Goal: Flesh out nation factbook.

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Prekonate
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Founded: Aug 22, 2009
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Postby Prekonate » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:17 am

Mallorea and Riva wrote:
Prekonate wrote:None of which affected the proposal apparently...what happened to changing the "heavily involved" wording? I thought we made significant progress on that. If you're just going to pick through the discussion for points supporting your original wording, why discuss at all?

I stated somewhere along the way that upon further reading I was content with it because it states that regions like haven were "heavily involved", so it allowed for a more lenient interpretation of Haven's actions.

You mean, it allows for a highly vague and misleading interpretation. There's really no more point discussing this with you -- you're much more interested in raiding some well known region than establishing the facts of haven's involvement. I shouldn't have expected any less from a raider, whose favored game would be called griefing if max berry didn't have a huge hard on for it.
Last edited by Prekonate on Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ainin
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Postby Ainin » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:17 am

Vitaphone Racing wrote:
Oaledonia wrote:The same link you had posted originally? Seriously? Real evidence, enough bullshit.

That's a pure speculation with links, and you aren't even sure that IF they did support it, how much they actually did.

It's about as relevant as the price of fish in China anyway. Some Havenites participating in a raid is no equivalent to Haven been a raiding region. It's a seriously weak argument but it's one that's concerning nonetheless.

And the last sentence of the so-called "evidence" destroys what little validity it had anyways. None of them are left in Haven, this is just petty revenge on people that have absolutely nothing to do with it in the first place.
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Tano
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Postby Tano » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:18 am

The Serbian Empire wrote:
Tano wrote:But griefign is all about intent. If you capture a region in order to purposefully eject the natives and nothing more, then in most cases that could be construed as griefing. But in my experiance, that is not the intent or goal.

It's little more than a legal gameside cover for real rulebreakers to hide underneath. They can always say they're raiding for power even when the intent is far more malicious.

Yeeaah...we're getting offtopic here so I"ll stop. Besides, in the end you wouldn't have convinced me otherwise, and I wouldn't have convinced you. There's little purpose to continuing the argument.
Tano Holland
Govindia: Do you consider me a friend, or just an acquaintance or what?
hobbes: I don't particularly consider anyone a true 'friend'
hobbes: at least,not on NS
Govindia: why is that?
hobbes: because
hobbes: everyone here is a jackass
hobbes: myself included

Pixie: *heart sploosh*
Tano: if your heart is splooshing you should contact a doctor
Tano: hearts are supposed to thump not sploosh
Pixie: No this is normal
Pixie: intense emotion causes me to hemorrage internally
Pixie: my life is like a really depressing comedic episode of The X-Files

Khron: we need an achievment of rem's face just for Tano
Pixie: haha
Pixie: "be Tano"

Brunhilde: My quotes should be in more signatures.

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Vitaphone Racing
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Founded: Aug 25, 2009
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Postby Vitaphone Racing » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:19 am

Ainin wrote:
Vitaphone Racing wrote:It's about as relevant as the price of fish in China anyway. Some Havenites participating in a raid is no equivalent to Haven been a raiding region. It's a seriously weak argument but it's one that's concerning nonetheless.

And the last sentence of the so-called "evidence" destroys what little validity it had anyways. None of them are left in Haven, this is just petty revenge on people that have absolutely nothing to do with it in the first place.

Pretty much. Which is what concerns me when we have a moderator who is willing to engage in petty revenge. Whether or not it's legal, it's still in quite bad faith.
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Parhe wrote:Guess what, maybe you don't know what it is like to be Asian.

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Lucino
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Postby Lucino » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:20 am

Ainin wrote:
Vitaphone Racing wrote:It's about as relevant as the price of fish in China anyway. Some Havenites participating in a raid is no equivalent to Haven been a raiding region. It's a seriously weak argument but it's one that's concerning nonetheless.

And the last sentence of the so-called "evidence" destroys what little validity it had anyways. None of them are left in Haven, this is just petty revenge on people that have absolutely nothing to do with it in the first place.


It's not even revenge, OP was part of the raids, he's just trying to find some sort of justification which unfortunately for him smacks up his credibility - not that he needed help woth that, apparently. There is no sound logic to the proposal.

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The Serbian Empire
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:21 am

Tano wrote:
The Serbian Empire wrote:It's little more than a legal gameside cover for real rulebreakers to hide underneath. They can always say they're raiding for power even when the intent is far more malicious.

Yeeaah...we're getting offtopic here so I"ll stop. Besides, in the end you wouldn't have convinced me otherwise, and I wouldn't have convinced you. There's little purpose to continuing the argument.

Yeah, I concur.
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Mallorea and Riva
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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:22 am

Lucino wrote:
Ainin wrote:And the last sentence of the so-called "evidence" destroys what little validity it had anyways. None of them are left in Haven, this is just petty revenge on people that have absolutely nothing to do with it in the first place.


It's not even revenge, OP was part of the raids, he's just trying to find some sort of justification which unfortunately for him smacks up his credibility - not that he needed help woth that, apparently. There is no sound logic to the proposal.

Well you're right that it's not about revenge. I'll give you that.
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Retired Major of The Black Hawks
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Tal and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
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Soldati Senza Confini
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Founded: Mar 11, 2013
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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:22 am

Mallorea and Riva wrote:
Oaledonia wrote:The same link you had posted originally? Seriously? Real evidence, enough bullshit.

That's a pure speculation with links, and you aren't even sure that IF they did support it, how much they actually did.

How could I have linked originally to a post which occurred later in the thread? >.>.


You actually did, it's right there on your own OP.
Soldati senza confini: Better than an iPod in shuffle more with 20,000 songs.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

Current Goal: Flesh out nation factbook.

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Oaledonia
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Founded: Mar 17, 2013
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Postby Oaledonia » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:22 am

Vitaphone Racing wrote:
Ainin wrote:And the last sentence of the so-called "evidence" destroys what little validity it had anyways. None of them are left in Haven, this is just petty revenge on people that have absolutely nothing to do with it in the first place.

Pretty much. Which is what concerns me when we have a moderator who is willing to engage in petty revenge. Whether or not it's legal, it's still in quite bad faith.

Holy shit! You mean people are still supporting it even though there's no argument? I'm 100% this isn't just a jab at RPing.

Mallorea and Riva wrote:
Lucino wrote:
It's not even revenge, OP was part of the raids, he's just trying to find some sort of justification which unfortunately for him smacks up his credibility - not that he needed help woth that, apparently. There is no sound logic to the proposal.

Well you're right that it's not about revenge. I'll give you that.

Then give us some proof that it even happened.
Last edited by Wikipe-tan on January 13, 2006 4:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Blackjack-and-Hookers wrote:
Oaledonia wrote:I'll go make my own genocidal galactic empire! with blackjack and hookers

You bet your ass you will!
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Soldati Senza Confini
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Founded: Mar 11, 2013
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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:23 am

Mallorea and Riva wrote:
Lucino wrote:
It's not even revenge, OP was part of the raids, he's just trying to find some sort of justification which unfortunately for him smacks up his credibility - not that he needed help woth that, apparently. There is no sound logic to the proposal.

Well you're right that it's not about revenge. I'll give you that.


It still doesn't make your proposal any less vapid.
Soldati senza confini: Better than an iPod in shuffle more with 20,000 songs.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

Current Goal: Flesh out nation factbook.

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Lucino
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Founded: Jan 17, 2006
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Lucino » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:24 am

The only "proof" he ever got works against him, so no, I wouldn't expect even poorly thought out justification at this point.

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Democratic Koyro
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Founded: Feb 13, 2011
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Democratic Koyro » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:25 am

The proposal is either A. for personal revenge or B. to piss off the roleplay community. Both are absurd reasons for a liberate resolution.
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Freihafen
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Posts: 213
Founded: Nov 26, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Freihafen » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:25 am

Oaledonia wrote:
Vitaphone Racing wrote:Pretty much. Which is what concerns me when we have a moderator who is willing to engage in petty revenge. Whether or not it's legal, it's still in quite bad faith.

Holy shit! You mean people are still supporting it even though there's no argument? I'm 100% this isn't just a jab at RPing.

Mallorea and Riva wrote:Well you're right that it's not about revenge. I'll give you that.

Then give us some proof that it even happened.

Apparently, as of now the proposal has garnered one approval while the proposal intended as a counterstrike against Mall has four.
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Mallorea and Riva should resign.

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