[Submitted] Liberate Haven

[Lucino]

I uh... I don't really have any conspiracy theories. I make a case that Haven was involved in the coup of TSP. Links are in the OP. Take it or leave it as you will.

I'm beginning to think you don't know what "proof" means, but that ultimately has no standing on why this is a terrible proposal.


Why does Haven have such a target on it's back for R/D crowd? Isn't it obvious that we plainly don't want to play your game? Isn't it obvious that nearly the entire RP community doesn't want anything to do with this? Shouldn't it have been plainly obvious what would come abput before you clicked "submit"?

[Democratic Koyro]

None of which affected the proposal apparently...what happened to changing the "heavily involved" wording? I thought we made significant progress on that. If you're just going to pick through the discussion for points supporting your original wording, why discuss at all?

I stated somewhere along the way that upon further reading I was content with it because it states that regions like haven were "heavily involved", so it allowed for a more lenient interpretation of Haven's actions.

You don't have any proof. You keep talking about it but don't link it.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Wow.

Would you by any chance care to share your conspiracy theories with us, please?

I uh... I don't really have any conspiracy theories. I make a case that Haven was involved in the coup of TSP. Links are in the OP. Take it or leave it as you will.

You only have one, and one that doesn't involve Haven as a region, but certain members of Haven which acted independently as far as I can read into it.

Your accusation that they were involved as a region doesn't make any sense.

[Vitaphone Racing]

I'm beginning to think you don't know what "proof" means, but that ultimately has no standing on why this is a terrible proposal.


Why does Haven have such a target on it's back for R/D crowd? Isn't it obvious that we plainly don't want to play your game? Isn't it obvious that nearly the entire RP community doesn't want anything to do with this? Shouldn't it have been plainly obvious what would come abput before you clicked "submit"?

It's what happens when hurt feelings are left to brood.

[Tano]

We don't do it to expel the occupants. We do it to capture the region itself.

Capturing the region often involves such activity though.

But griefign is all about intent. If you capture a region in order to purposefully eject the natives and nothing more, then in most cases that could be construed as griefing. But in my experiance, that is not the intent or goal.

[Oaledonia]

Wow.

Would you by any chance care to share your conspiracy theories with us, please?

I uh... I don't really have any conspiracy theories. I make a case that Haven was involved in the coup of TSP. Links are in the OP. Take it or leave it as you will.

The same link you had posted originally? Seriously? Real evidence, enough bullshit.

That's a pure speculation with links, and you aren't even sure that IF they did support it, how much they actually did.

[The Serbian Empire]

Capturing the region often involves such activity though.

But griefign is all about intent. If you capture a region in order to purposefully eject the natives and nothing more, then in most cases that could be construed as griefing. But in my experiance, that is not the intent or goal.

It's little more than a legal gameside cover for real rulebreakers to hide underneath. They can always say they're raiding for power even when the intent is far more malicious.

[Vitaphone Racing]

I uh... I don't really have any conspiracy theories. I make a case that Haven was involved in the coup of TSP. Links are in the OP. Take it or leave it as you will.

The same link you had posted originally? Seriously? Real evidence, enough bullshit.

That's a pure speculation with links, and you aren't even sure that IF they did support it, how much they actually did.

It's about as relevant as the price of fish in China anyway. Some Havenites participating in a raid is no equivalent to Haven been a raiding region. It's a seriously weak argument but it's one that's concerning nonetheless.

[Democratic Koyro]

I'm beginning to think you don't know what "proof" means, but that ultimately has no standing on why this is a terrible proposal.


Why does Haven have such a target on it's back for R/D crowd? Isn't it obvious that we plainly don't want to play your game? Isn't it obvious that nearly the entire RP community doesn't want anything to do with this? Shouldn't it have been plainly obvious what would come abput before you clicked "submit"?

Well, Mall has a direct conflict of interest here. It's more for his own personal vengeance than anything else.

[Mallorea and Riva]

I uh... I don't really have any conspiracy theories. I make a case that Haven was involved in the coup of TSP. Links are in the OP. Take it or leave it as you will.

The same link you had posted originally? Seriously? Real evidence, enough bullshit.

That's a pure speculation with links, and you aren't even sure that IF they did support it, how much they actually did.

How could I have linked originally to a post which occurred later in the thread? >.>

I'm beginning to think you don't know what "proof" means, but that ultimately has no standing on why this is a terrible proposal.


Why does Haven have such a target on it's back for R/D crowd? Isn't it obvious that we plainly don't want to play your game? Isn't it obvious that nearly the entire RP community doesn't want anything to do with this? Shouldn't it have been plainly obvious what would come abput before you clicked "submit"?

Well, Mall has a direct conflict of interest here. It's more for his own personal vengeance than anything else.

Someone is going to have to explain why there is an assumption that I love TSP.

[Elke and Elba]

I uh... I don't really have any conspiracy theories. I make a case that Haven was involved in the coup of TSP. Links are in the OP. Take it or leave it as you will.

You only have one, and one that doesn't involve Haven as a region, but certain members of Haven which acted independently as far as I can read into it.

Your accusation that they were involved as a region doesn't make any sense.

Good logic and right on.

So, do we actually, eh, condemn Catholic because Auralia decided to cheat to get a commendation? Or eh, attack Milo for Mall's action because they are both raider?

The logic in this proposal is... can't find it.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I'm beginning to think you don't know what "proof" means, but that ultimately has no standing on why this is a terrible proposal.


Why does Haven have such a target on it's back for R/D crowd? Isn't it obvious that we plainly don't want to play your game? Isn't it obvious that nearly the entire RP community doesn't want anything to do with this? Shouldn't it have been plainly obvious what would come abput before you clicked "submit"?

Well, Mall has a direct conflict of interest here. It's more for his own personal vengeance than anything else.

What do you mean "personal vengeance"? If this is a vendetta, I don't think it'd have been a really flimsy proposal.

[Prekonate]

None of which affected the proposal apparently...what happened to changing the "heavily involved" wording? I thought we made significant progress on that. If you're just going to pick through the discussion for points supporting your original wording, why discuss at all?

I stated somewhere along the way that upon further reading I was content with it because it states that regions like haven were "heavily involved", so it allowed for a more lenient interpretation of Haven's actions.

You mean, it allows for a highly vague and misleading interpretation. There's really no more point discussing this with you -- you're much more interested in raiding some well known region than establishing the facts of haven's involvement. I shouldn't have expected any less from a raider, whose favored game would be called griefing if max berry didn't have a huge hard on for it.

[Ainin]

The same link you had posted originally? Seriously? Real evidence, enough bullshit.

That's a pure speculation with links, and you aren't even sure that IF they did support it, how much they actually did.

It's about as relevant as the price of fish in China anyway. Some Havenites participating in a raid is no equivalent to Haven been a raiding region. It's a seriously weak argument but it's one that's concerning nonetheless.

And the last sentence of the so-called "evidence" destroys what little validity it had anyways. None of them are left in Haven, this is just petty revenge on people that have absolutely nothing to do with it in the first place.

[Tano]

But griefign is all about intent. If you capture a region in order to purposefully eject the natives and nothing more, then in most cases that could be construed as griefing. But in my experiance, that is not the intent or goal.

It's little more than a legal gameside cover for real rulebreakers to hide underneath. They can always say they're raiding for power even when the intent is far more malicious.

Yeeaah...we're getting offtopic here so I"ll stop. Besides, in the end you wouldn't have convinced me otherwise, and I wouldn't have convinced you. There's little purpose to continuing the argument.

[Vitaphone Racing]

It's about as relevant as the price of fish in China anyway. Some Havenites participating in a raid is no equivalent to Haven been a raiding region. It's a seriously weak argument but it's one that's concerning nonetheless.

And the last sentence of the so-called "evidence" destroys what little validity it had anyways. None of them are left in Haven, this is just petty revenge on people that have absolutely nothing to do with it in the first place.

Pretty much. Which is what concerns me when we have a moderator who is willing to engage in petty revenge. Whether or not it's legal, it's still in quite bad faith.

[Lucino]

It's about as relevant as the price of fish in China anyway. Some Havenites participating in a raid is no equivalent to Haven been a raiding region. It's a seriously weak argument but it's one that's concerning nonetheless.

And the last sentence of the so-called "evidence" destroys what little validity it had anyways. None of them are left in Haven, this is just petty revenge on people that have absolutely nothing to do with it in the first place.

It's not even revenge, OP was part of the raids, he's just trying to find some sort of justification which unfortunately for him smacks up his credibility - not that he needed help woth that, apparently. There is no sound logic to the proposal.

[The Serbian Empire]

It's little more than a legal gameside cover for real rulebreakers to hide underneath. They can always say they're raiding for power even when the intent is far more malicious.

Yeeaah...we're getting offtopic here so I"ll stop. Besides, in the end you wouldn't have convinced me otherwise, and I wouldn't have convinced you. There's little purpose to continuing the argument.

Yeah, I concur.

[Mallorea and Riva]

And the last sentence of the so-called "evidence" destroys what little validity it had anyways. None of them are left in Haven, this is just petty revenge on people that have absolutely nothing to do with it in the first place.

It's not even revenge, OP was part of the raids, he's just trying to find some sort of justification which unfortunately for him smacks up his credibility - not that he needed help woth that, apparently. There is no sound logic to the proposal.

Well you're right that it's not about revenge. I'll give you that.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

The same link you had posted originally? Seriously? Real evidence, enough bullshit.

That's a pure speculation with links, and you aren't even sure that IF they did support it, how much they actually did.

How could I have linked originally to a post which occurred later in the thread? >.>.

You actually did, it's right there on your own OP.

[Oaledonia]

And the last sentence of the so-called "evidence" destroys what little validity it had anyways. None of them are left in Haven, this is just petty revenge on people that have absolutely nothing to do with it in the first place.

Pretty much. Which is what concerns me when we have a moderator who is willing to engage in petty revenge. Whether or not it's legal, it's still in quite bad faith.

Holy shit! You mean people are still supporting it even though there's no argument? I'm 100% this isn't just a jab at RPing.

It's not even revenge, OP was part of the raids, he's just trying to find some sort of justification which unfortunately for him smacks up his credibility - not that he needed help woth that, apparently. There is no sound logic to the proposal.

Well you're right that it's not about revenge. I'll give you that.

Then give us some proof that it even happened.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

It's not even revenge, OP was part of the raids, he's just trying to find some sort of justification which unfortunately for him smacks up his credibility - not that he needed help woth that, apparently. There is no sound logic to the proposal.

Well you're right that it's not about revenge. I'll give you that.

It still doesn't make your proposal any less vapid.

[Lucino]

The only "proof" he ever got works against him, so no, I wouldn't expect even poorly thought out justification at this point.

[Democratic Koyro]

The proposal is either A. for personal revenge or B. to piss off the roleplay community. Both are absurd reasons for a liberate resolution.

[Freihafen]

Pretty much. Which is what concerns me when we have a moderator who is willing to engage in petty revenge. Whether or not it's legal, it's still in quite bad faith.

Holy shit! You mean people are still supporting it even though there's no argument? I'm 100% this isn't just a jab at RPing.

Well you're right that it's not about revenge. I'll give you that.

Then give us some proof that it even happened.

Apparently, as of now the proposal has garnered one approval while the proposal intended as a counterstrike against Mall has four.