[Submitted] Liberate Haven

[Vetok]

This is a thinly veiled attempt to strip away the one protection that RP regions have against the clusterfuck of Raiding/Defending, the password. To the best of my knowledge, the last time Haven was involved in that little circle was when some raiders wiggled their way into getting the password and it took a lot of roleplayers with assistance from some defender groups to take it back.

R/D has already fucked over Haven and Greater Dienstad. Let's say no to it fucking anything else.

[Roania]

I'm half-tempted to join the WA just to vote against this silly, silly resolution. Maybe one of my puppets should join it. This is ludicrous, and speaking as a member of a password protected region, I want nothing to do with the 'raiding' game. I moved into a password protected region specifically to avoid it. M&R has some sort of bizarre and silly complaint about an event that happened over a year ago, which somehow justifies bothering the current members of Haven. It's an excuse, and it should be treated as such.

[Mini Miehm]

Why is this stupidity even a thing? You can all play your silly pointless raid and defense games together in your sad little corner of NS. Don't come trying to destroy things built by people with more imagination than you, acting like petulant children because someone has something nice that you want to destroy. Grow up. All of you. If we wanted to play your gameplay asshattery, we would.

[Applebania]

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=303068

I've already got this ready.

[Oseato]

Amazing that a mod of this site would seek to bring back the ridiculous forum and region fight that Haven went through years ago. I'm not saying this is the dumbest thing I've ever seen, but I've really gotta give it a round of applause.

[Sedgistan]

Why is this stupidity even a thing? You can all play your silly pointless raid and defense games together in your sad little corner of NS. Don't come trying to destroy things built by people with more imagination than you, acting like petulant children because someone has something nice that you want to destroy. Grow up. All of you. If we wanted to play your gameplay asshattery, we would.

Disagreeing with this proposal is allowed, as is arguing against it. However, regardless of how annoyed you are at it, there's no excuse for trolling - take an unofficial warning. If you can't post calmly, don't post.

EDIT: Temp lock pending further action. EDIT 2: Re-opened.

[Glen-Rhodes]

In fact, since they're being used to support this "liberation," I would be interested in hearing from the Coalition of The South Pacific.

Not speaking for TSP's Cabinet here, but I'm pretty sure the Cabinet in power during and just after Milograd's coup was prepared to grant general amnesty to any roleplayer who participated in the coup, under the reasoning that they didn't really understand the conventions of NS Gameplay and why Milograd's coup was unacceptable. What came of that I don't exactly remember. We certainly have no plans of prosecuting those roleplayers. TSP has focused on those who actually orchestrated the coup, like Mall.

[Kylarnatia]

TSP has focused on those who actually orchestrated the coup, like Mall.

Something I definitely think the author in question should be more focused on, seeing as he implies that he wishes to bring to justice those who were "heavily involved" in the coup in his draft proposal.

...prepared to grant general amnesty to any roleplayer who participated in the coup, under the reasoning that they didn't really understand the conventions of NS Gameplay and why Milograd's coup was unacceptable.

Just a key quote.

[Vetok]

In fact, since they're being used to support this "liberation," I would be interested in hearing from the Coalition of The South Pacific.

Not speaking for TSP's Cabinet here, but I'm pretty sure the Cabinet in power during and just after Milograd's coup was prepared to grant general amnesty to any roleplayer who participated in the coup, under the reasoning that they didn't really understand the conventions of NS Gameplay and why Milograd's coup was unacceptable. What came of that I don't exactly remember. We certainly have no plans of prosecuting those roleplayers. TSP has focused on those who actually orchestrated the coup, like Mall.

Hang on...you're telling us that the person, a moderator no less, who is writing this Liberation rubbish, is one of the people responsible for the incident that Haven is being blamed for?

[Bears Armed]

Hang on...you're telling us that the person, a moderator no less, who is writing this Liberation rubbish, is one of the people responsible for the incident that Haven is being blamed for?

Yes.

[The Silver Sky]

Not speaking for TSP's Cabinet here, but I'm pretty sure the Cabinet in power during and just after Milograd's coup was prepared to grant general amnesty to any roleplayer who participated in the coup, under the reasoning that they didn't really understand the conventions of NS Gameplay and why Milograd's coup was unacceptable. What came of that I don't exactly remember. We certainly have no plans of prosecuting those roleplayers. TSP has focused on those who actually orchestrated the coup, like Mall.

Hang on...you're telling us that the person, a moderator no less, who is writing this Liberation rubbish, is one of the people responsible for the incident that Haven is being blamed for?

Yup, in addition he is blaming us without providing any solid evidence. I find it hard to believe that a small region could have been of any help in such a big conflict either. If someone from Haven helped out in the coup of TSP I doubt they are still there today. An embassy does not equal hard evidence.

[Elke and Elba]

Hang on...you're telling us that the person, a moderator no less, who is writing this Liberation rubbish, is one of the people responsible for the incident that Haven is being blamed for?

Yes.

I don't get it - why is Mall of all things targeting a region with no founder (presumably because they are antique enough)? It's not even a thing a raider would do.

I'm using another strategy to get back at Mall, which is a repeal of a commendation of a region Mall got foundership of. Maybe that would help your cause here...

[Nierr]

Possibly because you're opening a region, that clearly has no interest in such things, to raiding.

And we've done the same thing to Nazi Europe in the past. Opening up a region that is cowardly hiding behind a password is within this council's interest.

There is a difference between a roleplay region and Nazi Europe and you fucking know it.

They seemed to have an interest in it when it was TSP getting wrecked and not them.

Please feel free to provide evidence that Haven, and not a group of former NS players (I can provide you the link to their new home if you wish) attacked TSP.

Then feel free to explain why Haven should be punished and you shouldn't, when you took an even larger role in that business.

Hardly irrelevant. The point of the argument is that nothing should be done. Its awfully easy for you to say this while you 'hide' behind your founder protected region.

Hey we have activity and never tried to take out a feeder. Haven would be far more fun to raid than to watch sit behind a password.

Do you? When was the last the Black Hawks actually did anything?

Also, I find it very hard to believe that you never tried to take out a feeder. Hell, you were caught out in the Sinkers once, with the whole Liz thing in Osiris.

I am one of the four nations in Haven (note: there's actually five including myself, but let's not get technical here) and do not have any recollection of our region being involved in any raids in the last six months, much less the last year. In fact, while I do not claim to have encyclopedic knowledge of any and all raids that Haven has partaken in, the last I seem to remember was... maybe in 2008?

Also, I oppose this effort to "liberate" the region on the grounds of... I don't know, we don't really need liberating? I mean frankly it sounds more like "theft" to me.

Yeah that embassy that you guys had for about seven days during the coup just appeared out of nowhere right? What a mystery.

So... when are you going after CSSR, Marxists Internet Archive, Koridai, Mystria, Antifa, Juche Union, The Communist Coalition, Exshaw, Communist International, The Communist Region, The Union of Red Nations, The Supreme Soviet, Gatesville Inc, UCR, Mazeria, Slavia, Warzone Europe, Atlantis, The Union of Communist Republics, United Left Front, USSR, Union of Socialist Confederate Republics, International Socialists or Glass Gallows?

Or could it be that it was TSP who proposed the embassy and an RPer delegate, not knowing of the goings on in TSP at the time, accepted it?

Why is this stupidity even a thing? You can all play your silly pointless raid and defense games together in your sad little corner of NS. Don't come trying to destroy things built by people with more imagination than you, acting like petulant children because someone has something nice that you want to destroy. Grow up. All of you. If we wanted to play your gameplay asshattery, we would.

Disagreeing with this proposal is allowed, as is arguing against it. However, regardless of how annoyed you are at it, there's no excuse for trolling - take an unofficial warning. If you can't post calmly, don't post.

EDIT: Temp lock pending further action. EDIT 2: Re-opened.

This is a joke right? People are proposing destroying a region that was built over countless thousands of hours, that contributed to some of the very best content this site has ever seen, and you're telling people to calm down?

I knew the moderation didn't give a fuck (Jenrak aside - and anyone familiar enough with her will know just how much she's had to fight tooth and nail through your bullshit) about RP, but I didn't realise you'd be this fucking crass about it.

[Vetok]

Hang on...you're telling us that the person, a moderator no less, who is writing this Liberation rubbish, is one of the people responsible for the incident that Haven is being blamed for?

Yes.

I'm surprised then that this draft is even still up then since it's obviously not based on any legitimate evidence. Hopefully someone with sense will take it down.

[Nierr]

Yes.

I'm surprised then that this draft is even still up then since it's obviously not based on any legitimate evidence. Hopefully someone with sense will take it down.

The Rules don't work that way.

The moderation team long ago decided that actually doing something to protect communities from bullshit like this was something that sounded like far too much effort.

[Oseato]

Yes.

I'm surprised then that this draft is even still up then since it's obviously not based on any legitimate evidence. Hopefully someone with sense will take it down.

Mods aren't going to moderate other mods in public, let's get real here. This proposal is clearly a ridiculous powerplay built on Mall's own bad acts and it will still get support because raiders like sticking it to rpers. This site cares very little about the rping community as a whole and would rather pretend it doesn't exist most of the time. The fact that the people charged with making sure the site is run by the rules have proposed a resolution that was 1) defeated last time and 2) spawned a huge amount of rules violations and flaming the last time it came up is frankly appalling but not surprising, ultimately.

[Euroslavia]

I'm surprised then that this draft is even still up then since it's obviously not based on any legitimate evidence. Hopefully someone with sense will take it down.

The Rules don't work that way.

The moderation team long ago decided that actually doing something to protect communities from bullshit like this was something that sounded like far too much effort.

Let's not turn this into a discussion on Moderation issues. Thanks.

[Katalonua]

There's this question I've heard here, "Why shouldn't we [Raiders] be allowed to disable passwords if we can?"

Allow me to answer a question with a question, why should we make it so easy for you? You say that not raiding Haven would be 'boring,' but how would a curb-stomp raid be any less boring? This Raiding/Defence thing is a game, what is the point of a game if you can simply walk around the obstacles? It's like using cheat codes, which isn't inherently bad, but in a game were there are players beyond yourself, the use of cheat codes starts looking pretty dubious.

Now, this obviously leads to the question, why should Haven and similar regions take the easy way out and use passwords? Simple, they're not playing your game. It's like kids playing field hockey on a driveway calling the kids playing hopscotch on the sidewalk cheaters on the grounds of breaking hockey rules. The kids playing hopscotch are not playing hockey, RolePlayers are not playing raiding. Different rules apply to them. I mean, would it be fair if RPers made IC declarations of war against raiding nations to decide how things should turn out?

While, yes, RPers can get into raiding and vice-versa, as Mall has claimed Haven has done, there is little evidence to support Haven has done this. In fact, many people have questioned this claim and noted how odd it is that Mall is trying to attack Haven's moral character with an event he played a heavy hand in.

[Questers]

The Rules don't work that way.

The moderation team long ago decided that actually doing something to protect communities from bullshit like this was something that sounded like far too much effort.

Let's not turn this into a discussion on Moderation issues. Thanks.

Why not?

One of the moderators explicitly wants to destroy a roleplaying region: evidently one of some import. Do you not think this is going to offend a large part of the site's roleplaying community? This is a symbolic gesture. The only outcome is extreme offense to the roleplaying community. Do you not think that this is inappropriate from someone who is supposed to make the forum and website a stable place? If this is not the place to do it, could you please re-direct me to where I can make a formal complaint about this behaviour.

[Euroslavia]

Let's not turn this into a discussion on Moderation issues. Thanks.

Why not?

One of the moderators explicitly wants to destroy a roleplaying region: evidently one of some import. Do you not think this is going to offend a large part of the site's roleplaying community? This is a symbolic gesture. The only outcome is extreme offense to the roleplaying community. Do you not think that this is inappropriate from someone who is supposed to make the forum and website a stable place? If this is not the place to do it, could you please re-direct me to where I can make a formal complaint about this behaviour.

The Moderation forum is the place to raise your concern.

[Nierr]

Why not?

One of the moderators explicitly wants to destroy a roleplaying region: evidently one of some import. Do you not think this is going to offend a large part of the site's roleplaying community? This is a symbolic gesture. The only outcome is extreme offense to the roleplaying community. Do you not think that this is inappropriate from someone who is supposed to make the forum and website a stable place? If this is not the place to do it, could you please re-direct me to where I can make a formal complaint about this behaviour.

The Moderation forum is the place to raise your concern.

...where they will be promptly dismissed out of hand, with much tutting and posting of images to boot.

The system works!

[Faxanavia]

This a *terrible* idea.

[Cormac A Stark]

the combined intelligence of the raiding community

Hi. Raider here. Against this resolution and against raiding your region.

Less generalization please.

[Elke and Elba]

the combined intelligence of the raiding community

Hi. Raider here. Against this resolution and against raiding your region.

Less generalization please.

And if Cormac has a problem with a pro-raiding proposal, there's usually a serious problem with the proposal itself.

It's probably the first time I see you disagree on a pro-raiding proposal.

[Cormac A Stark]

And if Cormac has a problem with a pro-raiding proposal, there's usually a serious problem with the proposal itself.

It's probably the first time I see you disagree on a pro-raiding proposal.

I don't generally support use of the Security Council as a weapon, the exception to this having been Nazi Europe. I also don't generally raid RP regions, unless they're also involved in Gameplay. A week long embassy with The South Pacific is not "involved in Gameplay."

Annoying the NationStates RP community is counterproductive, particularly for raiders. RPers are numerous, loud, and persistent enough that they could potentially get admins to enact changes that are unfavorable to raiders, so I don't see any reason to continually poke this hornet's nest. There are plenty of non-passworded, non-RP founderless regions in NationStates.