[Submitted] Liberate Haven

[The Kievan People]

They work like that on the regional level, because the mechanics allow for it.

I sincerely hope the site administrators take a second look at the this silly "liberate" mechanic. It clearly has too much potential for abuse.

[Western Borderlands]

This just seems so...pointless, I do not get why we should liberate a region for past actions if the delegates involved don't even inhabit it anymore.

[Lavan Tiri]

He's posted no evidence, you've posted no evidence. According to the words of Nervun, neither of you are at fault for doing so. You can avoid presenting 'evidence', we can avoid presenting evidence. Done and done.

I linked a nation which was involved, as well as evidence of its involvement. Additionally I showed that the government of Haven was complicit with Milograd's coup via the embassy. We've got someone who claims to be a Haven native admitting involvement, but I don't have a hard connection between the player and Haven yet. Evidence is mounting.

Several people from haven and other regions participated after milo seized control (unilaterally), im not sure how anyone could deny that. It was not a haven wide thing nor did the majority of Havenites participate. Off the top of my head, sharf, questers, oseato, leistung (I am leistung). One is off ns, the other three are on Maredoratica now.

Duly noted. The Delegate of Haven at the time, then knew what was going on and accepted the embassy. Thank you for your information.

So....an embassy shows support, how? Shows being complicit, how? You've given your "evidence", now explain why, exactly, it matters?

[Ambroscus Koth]

They work like that on the regional level, because the mechanics allow for it.

I sincerely hope the site administrators take a second look at the this silly "liberate" mechanic. It clearly has too much potential for abuse.

viewtopic.php?p=1524005#p1524005

You're 4 years late on that one. Hey, it's even about Haven here too!

[The Batorys]

?? Chevrokia was the delegate and had no knowledge of the events. He probably accepted the embassy b/c it was the south pacific...honestly the attempts to "catch" me are just laughable.

So the Delegate of the region had no idea that TSP was getting couped, or that Milograd had asked Haven for support, or that he was making WFE concessions? Now that's absurd.

The goalposts on demands for evidence have been getting shifted consistently. I've demonstrated now beyond any reasonable doubt that multiple members of Haven participated at the time, and that the Delegate had no problem expressing approval via an embassy.

I'm sorry, what? You mentioned Crave, I posted he was CTE over seven months ago. You mentioned the embassy, but failed to explain how an embassy is a 'reward' for these ebil Axis of Roleplay people in Haven who helped Milograd. Then you've just said over and over that certain RP'ers here are guilty and trying to cover up their involvement in it all. Then you failed to mention yourself your part in helping Milo coup this TSP thing.

Are you seeing a pattern here?

Crave CTE earlier does not mean that the player didn't do anything... That doesn't absolve anyone of their actions. I've explained multiple times how the embassy concept worked, look at the history of TSP and look at the RP regions rewarded with embassies for support. Finally my involvement in the coup merely demonstrates that I know what happened.

It may surprise you to know that not every region pays particular attention to the inner workings of every other region.

I doubt my region's founder (we don't have a delegate, because we're a bunch of Empires who would ICly never accept such a breach of sovereignty) even knows who any of the delegates of the feeder regions are right now.

Your little coups and shit aren't nearly as important to everyone not directly involved as you seem to think they are.

[Maltropia]

I've explained multiple times how the embassy concept worked, look at the history of TSP and look at the RP regions rewarded with embassies for support. Finally my involvement in the coup merely demonstrates that I know what happened.

Embassies aren't "rewards". Milo didn't go around with a covey of fawning lackeys waiting for him to drop bread crusts in front of them. RPers use embassies to keep links to other RP regions, or have you not noticed that when cancelling them? If he couped TSP again today and offered my region an embassy, I'd accept because I know him as an RPer. An embassy proves nothing, and there's nothing for you to prove.

Also, your involvement demonstrates that you were, you know, involved. Can we raid you now?

[Pollona]

Yes. That seems to sum this up perfectly.

Would you prefer it if I removed the lines which refer to TSP in their entirety?

Actually the best thing you could do is remove all the lines of text. That would probably fix everyone's objections with the resolution.

[Tiami]

Yes. That seems to sum this up perfectly.

Would you prefer it if I removed the lines which refer to TSP in their entirety?

It'd be even better if you removed this ridiculous proposal. You're only hurting yourself here.

[The Kievan People]

viewtopic.php?p=1524005#p1524005

You're 4 years late on that one. Hey, it's even about Haven here too!

Hay, I went ten years without paying attention to raider nonsense...

[The Batorys]

Yes. That seems to sum this up perfectly.

Would you prefer it if I removed the lines which refer to TSP in their entirety?

Sure. Then your justification would be nonexistent, instead of just flimsy, dishonest shit.

[Ambroscus Koth]

Can we raid you now?

Feel absolutely free to raid the foundered region he resides in

[The Batorys]

So the Delegate of the region had no idea that TSP was getting couped, or that Milograd had asked Haven for support, or that he was making WFE concessions? Now that's absurd.

If you knew Chevrokia, or literally anyone in Haven, you'd know how things actually worked. Chevrokia knew nothing of what was going on, as I've said multiple times. There simply is no evidence to support your claim that Haven acted in a unified form.

Of course he doesn't know how things worked.

He has no idea of how RP regions operate.

[Democratic Koyro]

Ridiculous proposal.

[Grand Russian Federation]

Would you prefer it if I removed the lines which refer to TSP in their entirety?

Actually the best thing you could do is remove all the lines of text. That would probably fix everyone's objections with the resolution.

This. This whole post in its entirety.

Don't drag us in to something we don't want to do like a child with adults nearby.

[Mallorea and Riva]

I've explained multiple times how the embassy concept worked, look at the history of TSP and look at the RP regions rewarded with embassies for support. Finally my involvement in the coup merely demonstrates that I know what happened.

Embassies aren't "rewards". Milo didn't go around with a covey of fawning lackeys waiting for him to drop bread crusts in front of them. RPers use embassies to keep links to other RP regions, or have you not noticed that when cancelling them? If he couped TSP again today and offered my region an embassy, I'd accept because I know him as an RPer. An embassy proves nothing, and there's nothing for you to prove.

Also, your involvement demonstrates that you were, you know, involved. Can we raid you now?

You can feel free to do whatever gameplay actions you want that the mechanics and rules allow.

Would you prefer it if I removed the lines which refer to TSP in their entirety?

Actually the best thing you could do is remove all the lines of text. That would probably fix everyone's objections with the resolution.

Well don't say I didn't try to compromise on the draft.

[Virana]

Would you prefer it if I removed the lines which refer to TSP in their entirety?

Sure. Then your justification would be nonexistent, instead of just flimsy, dishonest shit.

No, the justification is still there. And that is that raiders would do more with the region than its current members.

As ridiculous as it sounds, that is legitimately Mall's justification.

[Maltropia]

Can we raid you now?

Feel absolutely free to raid the foundered region he resides in

That's not what I want to do, though.

[Lavan Tiri]

This just seems so...pointless, I do not get why we should liberate a region for past actions if the delegates involved don't even inhabit it anymore.

Condemn those involved, leave the region the crap alone, stop pretending to care about anything besides having more regions to raid. It doesn't matter that Mall's a mod, the proposal is complete and utter idiocy. Also, even if he did raid, the Havenites would, most likely, ignore him or refound.

[Delmonte]

Sure. Then your justification would be nonexistent, instead of just flimsy, dishonest shit.

No, the justification is still there. And that is that raiders would do more with the region than its current members.

As ridiculous as it sounds, that is legitimately Mall's justification.

That's some Philosoraptor shit right there. If I could drive better with your car, I should just steal it.

[The Republic of Lanos]

Sure. Then your justification would be nonexistent, instead of just flimsy, dishonest shit.

No, the justification is still there. And that is that raiders would do more with the region than its current members.

As ridiculous as it sounds, that is legitimately Mall's justification.

You mean just griefing the natives by ejecting them all and turning Haven into a trophy region?

[Mallorea and Riva]

No, the justification is still there. And that is that raiders would do more with the region than its current members.

As ridiculous as it sounds, that is legitimately Mall's justification.

That's some Philosoraptor shit right there. If I could drive better with your car, I should just steal it.

If the rules and game mechanics of RL allowed for it. Lord knows we all do it when we play Grand Theft Auto.

[The Batorys]

I linked a nation which was involved, as well as evidence of its involvement. Additionally I showed that the government of Haven was complicit with Milograd's coup via the embassy. We've got someone who claims to be a Haven native admitting involvement, but I don't have a hard connection between the player and Haven yet. Evidence is mounting. Duly noted. The Delegate of Haven at the time, then knew what was going on and accepted the embassy. Thank you for your information.

So....an embassy shows support, how? Shows being complicit, how? You've given your "evidence", now explain why, exactly, it matters?

Exactly.

"Oh, but they got an embassy in exchange for support."

That's not evidence. That is an additional fucking assertion that the person claiming it, Mallorea in this case, has to provide evidence for.

So far, he has failed to provide any evidence at all, just alluding that he somehow has it but we can't see it.

[Ambroscus Koth]

Feel absolutely free to raid the foundered region he resides in

That's not what I want to do, though.

That's your prerogative. Because you have the right to do it if you want to, just like Mall has the right to submit a liberation proposal on Haven and raid it. Not his problem.

[Oseato]

Yes. That seems to sum this up perfectly.

Would you prefer it if I removed the lines which refer to TSP in their entirety?

My preference would clearly be to have this charade stopped. But if I have to compromise with having you remove blatant lies that would be fine. If we're going to do this we should at least drop the pretense of a false justification.

[Walk Like A Defender]

Whether Haven acted or didn't act in TSP is immaterial to the flawed premise of this resolution - that regions should be liberated so that they can become Raid targets.

Only cases with a very high bar can meet the test raised by such an extraordinary premise, i.e. Nazis. Nazis are allowed to suffer the premise that they deserve to be Raid targets, because they are not socialized into the NS community at large, but act as heretical, hateful self-imposed outcasts that alienate the community as they march towards their malicious goals in the robotic goosestep.

But Haven is not full of Nazis, ergo it can't be liberated in this way.

This proposal is audacious attention-seeking, and I believe a distraction for something nefarious that is about to happen. This is like a big pink elephant to distract everyone while the espionage activities begin.