[Submitted] Liberate Haven

[PrussianEmpire]

I have a list of all nations in Haven that declared war on TSP and the GP community. However, it is saved in PDF format and I cannot upload it to this forum. However, I assure you that /at least 3/ nations in Haven participated in this horrible crime against NS.

Can you go back to not winning elections in TEP so that people with actual contributions can actually contribute?

Please?

Too bad I've never been elected to anything in TEP. Nice try. Next batter up?

[Virana]

Refusal to accept evidence is not the same as lacking evidence.

You've deliberately refused requests for evidence several times. This isn't refusal to accept evidence. This is refusal to accept "but I have evidence that I won't give" as valid evidence.

[Vetok]

Convenient that you have evidence but cannot post it. I invoke Habeas Corpus. Your accusations are null and void until evidence is presented to the contrary. Bloody hell.

Can the written contents (if any) of the PDF be copied and pasted into a post?

Or even uploaded to dropbox/4shared and linked here. Of course, he can't. There is no such PDF. None of the members in Haven at the time this proposal was posted were likely to have been involved in the antics Mallorea created.

[The Batorys]

Again with the rhetoric that sounds eerily like something a rapist would say.

Wow. That's an entirely inappropriate thing to say over an opinion in a browser game. Take it down a notch, dude.

Calling it like I see it.

"I don't want to participate in this."

"Too bad, you're participating in it anyway, because I want you to!"

"But no, I don't want to! Please stop!"

"Tough luck, it's happening, whether you want it to or not. You were asking for it."

I mean... that's basically what your argument sounds like to me.

[Hobbiest Republic]

Still waiting for more names. Sorry about the coughing, it's that smoke machine Mallorea left running.

Oh wait, we've got Crave who Mallorea named and CTE'd last December, and we've got Hobbiest Republic who seems to be admitting to it...but is from an entirely different region.

If this was Mythbusters they wouldn't even consider doing a show on it it's that thin.

I appreciate the acknowledgement of my post.

On a further note, would it be more acceptable to both sides if this was veiled as less a 'liberation' and more a hostile invasion on a region which is alleged to have participated in the coup? For human rights violations in the south pacific? If you look at the south pacific incident it seemed to be a quite multi-regional commitment though, so singling out any one region becomes problematic as the aggressors would have proverbially scattered to the four winds.

[Nierr]

Can you go back to not winning elections in TEP so that people with actual contributions can actually contribute?

Please?

Too bad I've never been elected to anything in TEP.

That's... exactly what I said.

[Oseato]

The facts of this case are fairly simple. Mallorea has admitted that this is entirely in response to the events in The South Pacific and has sought to punish Haven for its role in those events. However, he has not yet produced any actual evidence of Haven's express support for the coup. Furthermore, Mallorea himself has admitted that he was one of the two people who masterminded the coup.

To support this is to support injustice. If we want justice for what happened in TSP, perhaps we should make a motion to repeal Mallorea's password? or Condemn him for his actions?

Furthermore someone from TSP has already pointed out that the administration of TSP was in favor of amnesty for most people involved in the Coup (with the exception of people like Mallorea and Milograd). This is a complete farce and baseless attack on an established and storied region.

Can you show me where I said that this is entirely about Haven's role in TSP? It's entirely about opening up Haven to raiding

Sadly I am still waiting on your proof of Haven's express written support for the coup, which you claimed to have. (I doubt you'll be able to back up your lies but when you do I'll be happy to provide you with the instances of your own posts where you said you targeted Haven for its role in TSP.

[Ambroscus Koth]

Can you go back to not winning elections in TEP so that people with actual contributions can actually contribute?

Please?

Too bad I've never been elected to anything in TEP. Nice try. Next batter up?

lel

Way to go, man.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Can you show me where I said that this is entirely about Haven's role in TSP? It's entirely about opening up Haven to raiding.

You're moving the goalposts, now. I'm being honest when I say I think you need to learn how to debate and provide a legitimate argument before starting something like this.

You're building a strawman by focusing the entire argument onto a single facet of the proposal and then changing how it is being presented. Read the proposal. It's almost entirely about opening up Haven to raiding, and just mentions that Haven isn't a region of innocents.

[Delmonte]

You're moving the goalposts, now. I'm being honest when I say I think you need to learn how to debate and provide a legitimate argument before starting something like this.

You're building a strawman by focusing the entire argument onto a single facet of the proposal and then changing how it is being presented. Read the proposal. It's almost entirely about opening up Haven to raiding, and just mentions that Haven isn't a region of innocents.

No, a strawman is when you fight against an argument that was never made. He's disputing that you have the evidence you founded your entire argument on! These are just words, they can be googled and learned!

[New Azura]

Let's try this one again...

I'm too tired and old to go through fourteen eighteen pages of butthurt; could you someone answer me this, though? How are you 'liberating' a region that isn't occupied? I understand the mechanics of gameplay are largely predicated on the whims of the community, but there are passwords for regions for a purpose. Undoing a region's password that isn't occupied by raiders seems to contravene the spirit of Gameplay, to say nothing of any perceived transgressions that may or may not have been lauded out by members of said region. It's a huge can of worms to go down this path, because it effectively changes the paradigm of the entire game, for those who are into Gameplay, those into Roleplaying, and even those who simply do inter-regional play.

Moreover, as a moderator of the game, is it not a conflict of interest for Mall to introduce a proposal that would so drastically alter the paradigm of said institutes? (Edit to Add: And an issue that Mall is pretty markedly biased over to boot?)

[Oseato]

You're moving the goalposts, now. I'm being honest when I say I think you need to learn how to debate and provide a legitimate argument before starting something like this.

You're building a strawman by focusing the entire argument onto a single facet of the proposal and then changing how it is being presented. Read the proposal. It's almost entirely about opening up Haven to raiding, and just mentions that Haven isn't a region of innocents.

Still waiting for the evidence in support of your arguments.

[Vetok]

You're moving the goalposts, now. I'm being honest when I say I think you need to learn how to debate and provide a legitimate argument before starting something like this.

You're building a strawman by focusing the entire argument onto a single facet of the proposal and then changing how it is being presented. Read the proposal. It's almost entirely about opening up Haven to raiding, and just mentions that Haven isn't a region of innocents.

I'd say you're building a strawman by saying 'You guys are strawmanning' when all we want is evidence for your claims. Right now, I'm inclined to believe this is actually an act with less than honest intentions.

[Todd McCloud]

Proposal looks good to me.



Just call me slowpoke.

[Virana]

You're moving the goalposts, now. I'm being honest when I say I think you need to learn how to debate and provide a legitimate argument before starting something like this.

You're building a strawman by focusing the entire argument onto a single facet of the proposal and then changing how it is being presented. Read the proposal. It's almost entirely about opening up Haven to raiding, and just mentions that Haven isn't a region of innocents.

The only justification given by the resolution to open Haven is that, allegedly, some members of Haven aren't "innocent". Not only are those accusations thoroughly unsupported by any evidence you've given, but even then, opening the region for raiding because it contains members accused of supporting a raid is ridiculous in its own right.

[PrussianEmpire]

Too bad I've never been elected to anything in TEP.

That's... exactly what I said.

Just wanted to make sure we're on the same page. I see Madjack, couper of Osiris, that you're supporting these infidels. You should reconsider.

[The Batorys]

Everyone on this thread is encouraged to take a chill pill, take a deep breath and to try and calm down. Its all getting to be a little much.

I will not "chill" as long as it's considered perfectly reasonable for a moderator who is a raider to target an RP region just because he can, and wreck something they like, when they've opted out of R/D, while at the same time it's considered extremist to suggest, even jokingly, changing game mechanics to wreck something raiders love.

[Minnysota]

You're building a strawman by focusing the entire argument onto a single facet of the proposal and then changing how it is being presented. Read the proposal. It's almost entirely about opening up Haven to raiding, and just mentions that Haven isn't a region of innocents.

I haven't used a strawman at all. If you don't know how to recognize fallacies, then you shouldn't be debating. Again, it's worth the effort to learn how to make an argument free of fallacies. You should invest in it.

[Katalonua]

Okay, admittedly, I've gotten off topic.

I'm going to try and focus on Haven and the proposal proper.

Firstly, a Liberation proposal is ideally meant to liberate raided regions, not the other way around. Thus, using a liberation to open up a region for raiding is unfair and is a mutation of their true intent.

Secondly, even if Haven is a raiding region, raiders use founders to protect themselves, little different than a password. So, the critique them for being untouchable is moot. By this logic, we should have proposals to remove founders from raiding regions because they make said regions equally untouchable as well.

Thirdly, this is clear violation of a region's sovereignty, by gameplay standards. If the Havenites chose to raid behind a password, it is their choice to do so.

[Mallorea and Riva]

You're building a strawman by focusing the entire argument onto a single facet of the proposal and then changing how it is being presented. Read the proposal. It's almost entirely about opening up Haven to raiding, and just mentions that Haven isn't a region of innocents.

Still waiting for the evidence in support of your arguments.

I've given some. The embassy which demonstrates the compliance of both Milograd and the government of Haven, linking Cavan to the coup to prove that there was a material Havenite presence... Everyone knows Haven was involved. I don't get why focusing in has happened on this aspect of the proposal.

Proposal looks good to me.



Just call me slowpoke.

Thanks slowpoke

You're building a strawman by focusing the entire argument onto a single facet of the proposal and then changing how it is being presented. Read the proposal. It's almost entirely about opening up Haven to raiding, and just mentions that Haven isn't a region of innocents.

The only justification given by the resolution to open Haven is that, allegedly, some members of Haven aren't "innocent". Not only are those accusations thoroughly unsupported by any evidence you've given, but even then, opening the region for raiding because it contains members accused of supporting a raid is ridiculous in its own right.

No the justification is that the raiders can do more with the region. I say as much in the proposal.

[Lavan Tiri]

Nope, I'm doing it to open it up to active raiding.

This. I will say this one time, and one time only: Haven is an RP FOCUSED REGION. They have decided to opt out of R/D gaming, and focus on RPing, and that's their choice. You, Mall, want to crack open a region that doesn't want to be involved in that type of gaming. But, Mall, a raider, is choosing to ignore this region's decision, and take over, because of their supposed participation in some coup that was a while ago. This ridiculous accusation is based, in it's entirety, on evidence that is, at best, circumstantial, and at worst, made up. So, ignoring the fact that Mall is a mod: this proposal is completely freaking idiotic, and an attempt by a raider to open a region that doesn't care about or take part in R/D.

[Voltrovia]

Can the written contents (if any) of the PDF be copied and pasted into a post?

Or even uploaded to dropbox/4shared and linked here. Of course, he can't. There is no such PDF. None of the members in Haven at the time this proposal was posted were likely to have been involved in the antics Mallorea created.

Mall, people aren't attacking this proposal because they are trying to cover up whatever did or didn't go on in Haven. They simply doubt your statements if you don't have any form of substantiated evidence to show for your case.

Edit: Concrete evidence is all that is needed. Surely that's fair.

[The Batorys]

Every single time the RPing community is poked like this, chaos happens.

Well clearly the solution lies in not poking the RPing community.

Seriously.

The RP community would love nothing better than being left to RP in peace.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

You're moving the goalposts, now. I'm being honest when I say I think you need to learn how to debate and provide a legitimate argument before starting something like this.

You're building a strawman by focusing the entire argument onto a single facet of the proposal and then changing how it is being presented. Read the proposal. It's almost entirely about opening up Haven to raiding, and just mentions that Haven isn't a region of innocents.

So, the mere rumour of a supported coup is enough to brand a region as 'not a nation of innocents' to be immediately opened up an raided? What's the use in passwords if any reasoning, however unsupported, is enough to remove said password?

[NERVUN]

Wow. That's an entirely inappropriate thing to say over an opinion in a browser game. Take it down a notch, dude.

Calling it like I see it.

"I don't want to participate in this."

"Too bad, you're participating in it anyway, because I want you to!"

"But no, I don't want to! Please stop!"

"Tough luck, it's happening, whether you want it to or not. You were asking for it."

I mean... that's basically what your argument sounds like to me.

It's flamebaiting is what it sounds like to me. *** Warned ***.

And with that ladies and gents, this is running too hot for my tastes, especially in the summer. 30 minute coffee break to chilly it down. May I suggest a nice iced coffee?

We'll reopen in a half.

Edit: Sorry, juggling in Moderation means I'm a wee bit late.

Ok, thread reopen. Please, CHILLY DOWN. We don't need the name calling or the baiting. Again, the topic is the drafted proposal.