[Submitted] Liberate Haven

[Katalonua]

Actually, you really don't. I have this nation, Oroloo, in a dead region that got invaded. I was perfectly fine, still able to RP and such as with no consequence. So, yeah, you /can/ ignore gameplay. The problem is that regions make it easier to coordinate RPs. Thus, we try to keep them as separate from R/N/D as much as we can.

I'll admit that you have a good point though, we are not separate from gameplay, hell, it's why passwords and founders exist in our regions. However, is it too much to ask raiders to leave RPers alone? Is taking over an RP region, a solely RP region, really worth that much to you?

I never said you don't have the option to ignore Gameplay. I only said that it's inaccurate that you are not participating.

True. However, is it inaccurate to say we're not participating in R/N/D?

[Ambroscus Koth]

... What? This is about Liberating Haven. Feel free to depart though, if you do not wish to debate the issue. Again not entirely correct.

So it's partially correct. Nice to see a moderator deflecting arguments instead of addressing them.

...What? He isn't acting in his capacity as a moderator to defend his proposal. That's a horseshit argument.

[The Batorys]

My favorite part of this thread are all the people who deployed WA's to the TSP Coup claiming their innocence. This isn't an RP where you can just edit out your post and it never happened, kiddos. Gameplay has history records

"All the people"?

Name them.

Fucking. Name. Them.

You can't, can you?

[Mini Miehm]

While I am an RPer I have one or two things to say:

Most RPers don't hate Gameplay. Most RPers aren't involved in Gameplay. Most RPers don't really care that much at all about Gameplay (much as most Gameplayers don't care about RP). And that's perfectly fine.

But if you try to force them to get involved in Gameplay by liberating and raiding an RP region (on what still seems like an incoherent basis) they will respond extremely negatively and with genuine anger and outrage. Ergo - the responses in this thread.

It isn't that the RP community (of Haven in particular) are working against raiders (or defenders for that matter), it's more that the vast majority simply wish to be left alone, regardless of the justifications for or arguments against this liberation proposal.

Thank you sir. Much more coolly phrased than I could have done.

[Reploid Productions]

Well, shoot. For whatever reason I can't post with my new WA puppet. That takes the fun out of this, so... yeah.

Just a quick note: I went to investigate on the off chance of some problem going on, but I see the problem has resolved itself.


~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

[New Azura]

Ladies and gentlemen, we are done here. Mallorea got what he wanted, which was the involvement of RP'ers in the WA forum. That's all he wanted. Let's just go home, because nothing he does will ever matter one flying fuck to any of us.

... What? This is about Liberating Haven. Feel free to depart though, if you do not wish to debate the issue.

It has to do with the fact that you're targeting RPing regular based on isolated incidents of indirect participation, and Password protected ones at that.

Again not entirely correct.

I'm too tired and old to go through fourteen pages of butthurt; could you answer me this, though? How are you 'liberating' a region that isn't occupied? I understand the mechanics of gameplay are largely predicated on the whims of the community, but there are passwords for regions for a purpose. Undoing a region's password that isn't occupied by raiders seems to contravene the spirit of Gameplay, to say nothing of any perceived transgressions that may or may not have been lauded out by members of said region. It's a huge can of worms to go down this path, because it effectively changes the paradigm of the entire game, for those who are into Gameplay, those into Roleplaying, and even those who simply do inter-regional play. Moreover, as a moderator of the game, is it not a conflict of interest for you to introduce a proposal that would so drastically alter the paradigm of said institutes? (Edit to Add: And an issue that you are admittedly biased over to boot?)

[Delmonte]

So it's partially correct. Nice to see a moderator deflecting arguments instead of addressing them.

...What? He isn't acting in his capacity as a moderator to defend his proposal. That's a horseshit argument.

Yeah, but he's a Moderator posting something to be intentionally inflammatory. When I asked if I could post a call to arms in II to get the attention of RPers for gameplay I was told explicitly that I couldn't because it would be inflammatory (as there was already a precedent for posting non-RP related things in II). Well, that's what this is. I'd love to see that reasoning enforced here, but it won't be. Also I think the person who told me that was kind of just being a jerk. But whatever.

[Ambroscus Koth]

It's a shame you've all been lied to over the years, being told you don't have to participate in gameplay, because it's functionally inaccurate. Can't help that, Maltropia.

I understand I don't have to target your group of players, Miehm. That's what makes it fun. I don't enjoy being told not to eat the forbidden fruit.

Again with the rhetoric that sounds eerily like something a rapist would say.

Wow. That's an entirely inappropriate thing to say over an opinion in a browser game. Take it down a notch, dude.

[Ambroscus Koth]

...What? He isn't acting in his capacity as a moderator to defend his proposal. That's a horseshit argument.

Yeah, but he's a Moderator posting something to be intentionally inflammatory. When I asked if I could post a call to arms in II to get the attention of RPers for gameplay I was told explicitly that I couldn't because it would be inflammatory (as there was already a precedent for posting non-RP related things in II). Well, that's what this is. I'd love to see that reasoning enforced here, but it won't be. Also I think the person who told me that was kind of just being a jerk. But whatever.

Reppy already ruled on this.

[Ramaeus]

-snip-

GCRs are Game Created Regions, the largest regions in the game. There are the Feeders--where nations who have been founded are placed--and Sinkers--where nations who have either been refounded or ejected are placed. This is very common knowledge. Now, about your comment on GCR delegates: I can only speak as the Delegate-elect of TEP, but I've never even heard of your little region. And hell, the only RP region I'm even slightly familiar with is Haven. Run along now, because this GCR delegate has never even heard of you.

[The Batorys]

You know what?

Yes.

Fuck it.

If we have to destroy half the game to be left the goddamn fuck alone, then yeah, at this point, I'd support that.

We have asked nicely. Repeatedly. We've pleaded. All we want is to be left to RP in peace. Is that so fucking much to ask? We've been assured that having founders would make it so we could opt out of R/D, and that in their absence, passwords would do it.


But apparently that's now to be disregarded, so that people can come in and have their fun at our expense in a way we don't want to participate in.


So fuck it.

And it's opinions like this that do not help. You know who holds the power in these kinds of things? The delegates of the GCRs. They have the most WA endoes and tend to be the ones who sway votes.

You know who won't like RPers advocating that a part of their game gets destroyed? The delegates of the GCRs.

Your opinion is borne out of anger, and I sympathise as an RPer first and as a gameplayer second, but it's not helping Haven, or roleplayers in general.

Help?

Fucking help?

Who gives a shit about helping? Trying to get along hasn't worked, so fuck R/D.

Also, as I understand it, the suggestion was partly sarcastic, pointing out how raiders love to come in and destroy things we care about, but if we suggest destroying the one thing they care about, somehow it's this horrible thing, and "we're not helping."

We want to be left the fuck alone. Destroying the game mechanics shouldn't have to be necessary for that to happen.

[Nierr]

It's a shame you've all been lied to over the years, being told you don't have to participate in gameplay, because it's functionally inaccurate. Can't help that, Maltropia.

I understand I don't have to target your group of players, Miehm. That's what makes it fun. I don't enjoy being told not to eat the forbidden fruit.

Again with the rhetoric that sounds eerily like something a rapist would say.

You are not helping in any way imaginable.

Just stop. Jesus christ.

[Mini Miehm]

You're damn skippy I'm angry. The delegates of the GCRs, whatever the hell those are, because I have no idea, can be assured that if they stop fucking with us, I will have absolutely zerofucks to give about raiding and gameplay in general.

Game Created Regions. The Pacific, The North Pacific, The East Pacific, The South Pacific, The West Pacific, The Rejected Realms, Lazarus, Osiris and Balder. So Delegates of said regions.

When we have mods specifically targeting us for harassment, I will not only get angry, but I will advocate for the destruction of the entire gameplay segment of this site, if that's what it takes for people to just leave us alone.

That's not very nice. We love our mods. <3

The quickest way to keep roleplayers from advocatng against the portion of the game that others enjoy is to quit trying to drag us forcefully into it. We don't want to be involved, so quit trying to involve us.

Can't we all just get along?

Don't be shocked when we get extremely pissed off about it. Just as pissed off as the GCRs are liable to get when we advocate getting rid of R/D.

Why would you want to do that? That makes NS fun for those who take part.

"Let's get together and feel all right..."

Thank you for the explanation. I had no idea. But, yaknow. Roleplayer.

Actually, you may love your mods. I do not. Too many incidences of taking actions that very seriously negatively impact roleplayers. Like this nonsense we're dealing with now.

As to my last two points, that's entirely my point. You don't want us advocating to destroy R/D. That's what you have fun with. That's fine. But if we aren't left alone, like this fuckery we're dealing with right now, we get understandably angry. We get JUST AS ANGRY as you would if we advocated to end raiding and defending. Destroying rp regions just because you can does nothing for anyone. So maybe the GCR delegates could use this apparently massive influence, which I know nothing about, because roleplayer, to make this shit not happen, and not get roleplayers prepared to break this game just to get some peace.

For the love of god, all we want is to be left alone. We don't even want to have to post in this thread. But we have to, because this won't end with Haven. I don't know what region will be next, but there will always be a next region. Because trolls are never satisfied unless they're shitting on someone else's fun. Let's maybe try working together to shit on them? Maybe without me having to actually get involved in this WA nonsense, because I seriously could not give a runny shit about it, personally. Just like I'm sure many people could care less about roleplay. Let's not give a damn about each other together, and then go do our own thing, free from interference from either party.

[Ambroscus Koth]

I never said you don't have the option to ignore Gameplay. I only said that it's inaccurate that you are not participating.

True. However, is it inaccurate to say we're not participating in R/N/D?

Nah, I suppose you'd be the N. A usually well-protected N, but an N nonetheless

[Northrop-Grumman]

First off, I honestly don't see the issue about the embassies. People have different stances from what I've been able to see. Some do community voting, some play a game of Pokemon (gotta catch them all), some don't do any, and so forth and so on. I personally accept either ones from folks I know or amusing enough names. If TSP decided to send me an embassy request, I'd probably accept it without another thought because "whoa, huuuuuge region!" Aside from that, the embassies have never really meant anything (until now with the ability to post on other's boards, which is nice for when you want to talk with your fellow RPers without messing about with puppets.

Second off, this happens every single time someone pokes at the RPing community. Everybody gets dragged in. Insults fly. People get warned. And everything goes to hell. Why do we keep getting dragged in here over these silly matters? You can opt out of RP, you can opt out of General, you can opt out of WA, and basically every other aspect of the game, but no, we're all forced to play your game. And every time we make complaints about how we're treated, we get the usual remark that "but it's legal!". Yeah, so what? Many things in this world are legal but that doesn't mean that they are right. Also, all that does is make people hate and hate your side more and more and seek nothing more than the eradication of R/D (See Mini Miehm (long time no see), and others). You're not helping your case.

Third, anyone got any real proof of Haven's involvement? I mean we've been going through this for 13+ pages and Mall has been just saying the same statements over and over. Embassies? Is that all you have? If you've got the proof, spill it. Otherwise, we can all just assume that these statements are completely inaccurate. It's rather sad, really.

[Venico]

...What? He isn't acting in his capacity as a moderator to defend his proposal. That's a horseshit argument.

Yeah, but he's a Moderator posting something to be intentionally inflammatory. When I asked if I could post a call to arms in II to get the attention of RPers for gameplay I was told explicitly that I couldn't because it would be inflammatory (as there was already a precedent for posting non-RP related things in II). Well, that's what this is. I'd love to see that reasoning enforced here, but it won't be. Also I think the person who told me that was kind of just being a jerk. But whatever.

I believe he's trying to use the liberation proposal exactly as it was meant to be used. To peel back the password of an unattainable region. Don't see anything inflammatory there. But if you do, I'd suggest taking it to the moderation thread here.

[The Batorys]

Show us. You're hiding behind smoke and mirrors baby, and you're not a magician good enough to cover that.

That was a hypothetical. I'm saying that if I gave you guys exactly what you're asking for, you would still not be satisfied. Because many of the significant posters here know that I'm telling the truth, and can't let Haven be opened up.

Oh, now it's a hypothetical?

Because you fucking can't.

You can't show that you're telling the truth. You're expecting us to take you at your word when you, as you even admit yourself, just want to fucking raid Haven because it's an old, well-known region and would be a nice feather in your little cap.

"Significant" isn't something you'd even know the half of as far as it comes to the RP community, as you've shown you have nothing but disdain for that entire side of NS. And you're a fucking moderator. Gods, standards have fallen.

[Oseato]

Third, anyone got any real proof of Haven's involvement? I mean we've been going through this for 13+ pages and Mall has been just saying the same statements over and over. Embassies? Is that all you have? If you've got the proof, spill it. Otherwise, we can all just assume that these statements are completely inaccurate. It's rather sad, really.

Still waiting on his proof of "Haven's expressed consent" or w/e he claimed to have.

[The Batorys]

Can we liberate a single nation from their password for their actions in the TSP coup or are we just allowed to focus on regions that never were formally in the R/D game?

I know, right?

Let's be able to do that. I think I could use Mall's nation better. We should be able to have it.

[San-Silvacian]

Third, anyone got any real proof of Haven's involvement? I mean we've been going through this for 13+ pages and Mall has been just saying the same statements over and over. Embassies? Is that all you have? If you've got the proof, spill it. Otherwise, we can all just assume that these statements are completely inaccurate. It's rather sad, really.

Still waiting on his proof of "Haven's expressed consent" or w/e he claimed to have.

Here is all the proof.

My usename is in orange, yours isn't.

Remove password pls.

[New Azura]

Another question, since my previous one(s) probably wont be addressed: why target Haven, exactly? I can promise you that any support Haven did or did not offer was ancillary at best, because the little cadre of goobs who organized the stunt weren't from Haven.

[Mini Miehm]

-snip-

GCRs are Game Created Regions, the largest regions in the game. There are the Feeders--where nations who have been founded are placed--and Sinkers--where nations who have either been refounded or ejected are placed. This is very common knowledge. Now, about your comment on GCR delegates: I can only speak as the Delegate-elect of TEP, but I've never even heard of your little region. And hell, the only RP region I'm even slightly familiar with is Haven. Run along now, because this GCR delegate has never even heard of you.

Oh, and Mall, your draft has my support.

Good? I guess?

I seriously know absolutely nothing about gameplay. It doesn't interest me, just like roleplay doesn't interest you. All i know right now is that a game mod is trolling the roleplay community, and that's seriously uncool. I have no interest in knowing anything about gameplay, because I have no intention of participating. I would appreciate the courtesy of not having to know, just as I don't expect you to know anything about roleplay, because this roleplayer has never even heard of you either.

[New Tsavon]

Which is why you don't see us sitting in founderless regions.

Yet you seem to have found no issue with raiding Sapphire.

[The Batorys]

And it's opinions like this that do not help. You know who holds the power in these kinds of things? The delegates of the GCRs. They have the most WA endoes and tend to be the ones who sway votes.

You know who won't like RPers advocating that a part of their game gets destroyed? The delegates of the GCRs.

Your opinion is borne out of anger, and I sympathise as an RPer first and as a gameplayer second, but it's not helping Haven, or roleplayers in general.

You're damn skippy I'm angry. The delegates of the GCRs, whatever the hell those are, because I have no idea, can be assured that if they stop fucking with us, I will have absolutely zerofucks to give about raiding and gameplay in general. When we have mods specifically targeting us for harassment, I will not only get angry, but I will advocate for the destruction of the entire gameplay segment of this site, if that's what it takes for people to just leave us alone. The quickest way to keep roleplayers from advocatng against the portion of the game that others enjoy is to quit trying to drag us forcefully into it. We don't want to be involved, so quit trying to involve us. Don't be shocked when we get extremely pissed off about it. Just as pissed off as the GCRs are liable to get when we advocate getting rid of R/D.

Tl;dr, if they support us, they don't have to worry about us advocating against them. We really do just want to be left in peace. So, let's see about making this shit fail, ok? Thanks. And maybe verbally castigate the troll who started this entire cluster.

Exactly.

That was the whole fucking point.

Nobody likes shit they enjoy to be messed with.

If raiders weren't constantly trying to kick over RPers' sandcastles, there wouldn't be as many calls from RPers to curtail or eliminate the R/D part of the game.

It's not that fucking hard to understand. When you wreck people's shit, they get angry about it, and try to think of ways to prevent you from doing it again. You can avoid this by not wrecking their stuff in the first place.

[The Batorys]

Did you notice how none of the significant RP'ers are denying their involvement?

Oh, sorry, I'll do that now. I played no role in the TSP coup. Happy?

The idea that Mall knows enough about the RP community to know who's "significant," is laughable. As is his notion that there even are "significant" individuals in a community so huge.