[SUBMITTED] Condemn The Confederacy of Allied States

[SkyDip]

I have yet to hear how the proposal is "bullshittery". But, then again, I guess that you can call it bullshit and not have to prove it.

Apparently you missed the part where literally every other commenter not associated with this region/situation called this irrelevant to the world.

If you take our logic and twist it into something ridiculous, sure. The point of this is to condemn a large region that is representing itself as a democracy, but setting a bad example of what a democratic region should be. That doesn't mean all non-democratic regions would be condemn-worthy.

Oh, so we're just Condemning bad examples of democracy now. Much more clear - should refine the scope quite a bit.

If there was a precedent of condemning large supposedly-democractic regions for misrepresenting democratic ideals, then why are you combating this from the position of it being irrelevant?

Because, as I have stated ad infinitum, this affects no one outside this region and its members. TEP doesn't care that the WAD of this region is being a little bit evil. Nor does Europeia, TBR, TNP, and every other acronym you can throw together or any influential or prominent region. No one is affected by this outside of one region. Period. There's no argument there. Arguing that being a bad example to new regions is tantamount to world-wide effect is just ludicrous.

[Lemongrad Union]

What's the precedent for condemning someone screwing up thier own region? I thought there was no precedent because screwing up thier own region was something not worth the world's attention condemning. That's the basic argument that'll be tested if it gets to vote.

The closest ones to it would be "Condemn Durk" and "Condemn Yauna", and both can be intepreted as screwing up other regions as well, since Durk and Yauna could be considered invaders. (On a different note, why condemn a region rather than a person?)

We have tons of precedent for condemning people screwing up other people's region though.

Remember that CAS is the one that the draft is about, not Unovia. If I understand NEO and Ridersyl's draft correctly, it's about the mistreatment of citizens, violating CAS constitution, setting a bad example for the many regions that look up to CAS, threatening observer regions and the terrible reasons that the revolution took place.

[SkyDip]

What's the precedent for condemning someone screwing up thier own region? I thought there was no precedent because screwing up thier own region was something not worth the world's attention condemning. That's the basic argument that'll be tested if it gets to vote.

The closest ones to it would be "Condemn Durk" and "Condemn Yauna", and both can be intepreted as screwing up other regions as well, since Durk and Yauna could be considered invaders. (On a different note, why condemn a region rather than a person?)

We have tons of precedent for condemning people screwing up other people's region though.

Remember that CAS is the one that the draft is about, not Unovia. If I understand NEO and Ridersyl's draft correctly, it's about the mistreatment of citizens, violating CAS constitution, setting a bad example for the many regions that look up to CAS, threatening observer regions and the terrible reasons that the revolution took place.

None of which the outside world cares about. I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall.

[Lemongrad Union]

I have yet to hear how the proposal is "bullshittery". But, then again, I guess that you can call it bullshit and not have to prove it.

Apparently you missed the part where literally every other commenter not associated with this region/situation called this irrelevant to the world.

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[SkyDip]

<snip>

flip·pant
ˈflipənt
adjective
1. not showing a serious attitude.

[RiderSyl]

What's the precedent for condemning someone screwing up thier own region? I thought there was no precedent because screwing up thier own region was something not worth the world's attention condemning. That's the basic argument that'll be tested if it gets to vote.

The closest ones to it would be "Condemn Durk" and "Condemn Yauna", and both can be intepreted as screwing up other regions as well, since Durk and Yauna could be considered invaders. (On a different note, why condemn a region rather than a person?)

We have tons of precedent for condemning people screwing up other people's region though.

The point of this proposal is not to condemn CAS for screwing up their own region. People screw up their own regions all the time, that doesn't make them condemn-worthy.

The point of this proposal is to condemn CAS for misrepresenting the ideals of a democratic region. A large region misrepresenting a political ideology can screw up other regions without having to invade them.
Of course, we could just wait until CAS's misrepresentation has caused other, smaller democratic regions to follow in their destructive footsteps. But I would like to get this out of the way now, so it doesn't happen in the first place.

Apparently you missed the part where literally every other commenter not associated with this region/situation called this irrelevant to the world.

<Warning: SkyDip has entered over-dramatic hyperbole mode.>

Oh, so we're just Condemning bad examples of democracy now. Much more clear - should refine the scope quite a bit.

Actually, we're condemning a large region that is showing a bad example of democracy, whose influence could corrupt smaller regions pursuing a similar ideology.

So, how many large democratic regions showing bad examples of democracy exist in NationStates?

Because, as I have stated ad infinitum, this affects no one outside this region and its members. TEP doesn't care that the WAD of this region is being a little bit evil. Nor does Europeia, TBR, TNP, and every other acronym you can throw together or any influential or prominent region. No one is affected by this outside of one region. Period. There's no argument there. Arguing that being a bad example to new regions is tantamount to world-wide effect is just ludicrous.

So, any condemnation proposal has to have the region in question affect an influential/prominent region for it to be relevant. The small fish have to bother the big fish in order for it to matter. If the small fish bother the smaller fish, then that that's irrelevant and the big fish don't care?

You know, I'd like to see that for myself instead of taking your word for it.

[Communist Eraser]

Remember that CAS is the one that the draft is about, not Unovia. If I understand NEO and Ridersyl's draft correctly, it's about the mistreatment of citizens, violating CAS constitution, setting a bad example for the many regions that look up to CAS, threatening observer regions and the terrible reasons that the revolution took place.

None of which the outside world cares about. I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall.

Because that's the crux of it. They feel the world *should* care about regions putting on a fake veneer of democracy or whatever. That they feel as good global citizens everyone has a moral duty to condemn regions who claim they are democracies but aren't really.

You (and probably lots of others) don't.

[SkyDip]

<Warning: SkyDip has entered over-dramatic hyperbole mode.>

You say that like sometimes I'm out of over-dramatic hyperbole mode.

Actually, we're condemning a large region that is showing a bad example of democracy, whose influence could corrupt smaller regions pursuing a similar ideology.

So, how many large democratic regions showing bad examples of democracy exist in NationStates?

Depends on your arbitrary definition of large. I would say large is 500+ nations.

So, any condemnation proposal has to have the region in question affect an influential/prominent region for it to be relevant. The small fish have to bother the big fish in order for it to matter. If the small fish bother the smaller fish, then that that's irrelevant and the big fish don't care?

You know, I'd like to see that for myself instead of taking your word for it.

By all means. It's not like I've seen this happen before or anything.

[RiderSyl]

None of which the outside world cares about. I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall.

Because that's the crux of it. They feel the world *should* care about regions putting on a fake veneer of democracy or whatever. That they feel as good global citizens everyone has a moral duty to condemn regions who claim they are democracies but aren't really.

You (and probably lots of others) don't.

You hit the nail on the head, actually.

You say that like sometimes I'm out of over-dramatic hyperbole mode.

Depends on your arbitrary definition of large. I would say large is 500+ nations.

Nothing to argue with here.

By all means. It's not like I've seen this happen before or anything.

Do you have an example more recent than January 2012?

[SkyDip]

Sage advice.

Here's my point, and I'm not going to argue it any further after this - you have constituents from a lot of large vote-carrying regions saying this is something that should be dealt with internally. Those constituents turn into votes in their regions, wherein their Delegates will likely reach the same conclusion. I don't see any way that anyone with a shred of up to date Gameplay knowledge would vote for this. Submission would be a waste of the SC's time.

[Lemongrad Union]

Sage advice.

Here's my point, and I'm not going to argue it any further after this - you have constituents from a lot of large vote-carrying regions saying this is something that should be dealt with internally. Those constituents turn into votes in their regions, wherein their Delegates will likely reach the same conclusion. I don't see any way that anyone with a shred of up to date Gameplay knowledge would vote for this. Submission would be a waste of the SC's time.

Milograd approved of it.

[SkyDip]

Milograd approved of it.

One exemption does not a case break.

EDIT: And let's be clear for the uninformed - there's a stark difference between approving of something and approving it.

[RiderSyl]

Thank you for your advice, SkyDip. We acknowledge your position on this draft and that it is based on very respectable WA experience. However, we are still going forward in the pursuit of this proposal because we feel that, up to this point, we have heard just as much support as we have heard opposition.

Prior to the previous removal for rule violations, we felt extremely confident in our ability to pass this proposal in the Security Council. While you made a strong case for dropping it here, we aren't going to pull a 180 in our stance just because a new thread was opened up.

[Communist Eraser]

Oh I agree with Skydip's conclusions. This will most likely fail.

What I said earlier about "They feel the world *should* care about regions putting on a fake veneer of democracy or whatever. That they feel as good global citizens everyone has a moral duty to condemn regions who claim they are democracies but aren't really."

Most regions don't believe that. They usually only condemn bad things when it affects other people (A doing bad things to B), not bad things just affecting thier own region (A doing bad things to A). Even if you argue by that by condemning (A doing bad things to A) it sends a message that (B shouldn't do bad things to B), it doesn't fit thier thinking...

You need to somehow change the thinking of large regions so they do.

Good Luck.

[Goddess Relief Office]

I'm unconvinced why you need to condemn the entire region when your beef is with the founder. Not very fair to the other nations in CAS who did nothing.

[Lemongrad Union]

I'm unconvinced why you need to condemn the entire region when your beef is with the founder. Not very fair to the other nations in CAS who did nothing.

The revolution was orchestrated by the founder and Prime Minister. The PM was the one who made the threats to Madrigal.

[Frattastan II]

Your proposal lacks an operative clause.

[Albrook]

Finally, when the sky cleared up from the storm, Ill'haress Byakuren Hijiri was still relieved that the CAS Revolution Crisis was over. Madrigal ceased production of the condemnation, and it was just time for the Ill'haress to rela..

"Telegram for Hijiri! Madrigal has another condemnation proposal!"

"Shit.. Why can't humans in this time just get along with their internal affairs already? Didn't I already fix this?" the Ill'haress yelled in desperation, for this was the first break she had all weekend.

Out of character, Truth Progress is going back up on Iwaku's WFE, it seems. Except this time, it's not Madrigal on the other end, but an independent party.

[Controlled Interests]

Hello Fellow WA Members,

As many of you may understand, Madrigal originally endorsed a condemnation for security reasons. However, seeing that CAS and Madrigal leaders did reach an agreement that ensured the safety and prosperity of both regions in the Scarlet-Truce Accord, we no longer saw any reason to condemn the CAS. However, confusion still exists, and as a result, the Madrigal government hereby issues the following official statement:

This condemnation of CAS is in NO WAY endorsed by the region of Madrigal, its WA Delegate Controlled Interests, or its founder, Fiske Cahill. All work was handed over to PRIVATE INDIVIDUALS when the previous thread was locked. CURRENTLY, ALL WORK IS BEING CARRIED OUT BY RIDERSYL, NEO ROME EMPIRE, and ADEN PROTECTORATE ON THEIR OWN VOLITIONS.

We hope that this announcement will help to clear the confusion up. If you do have questions, do not hesitate to telegram me.

[RiderSyl]

I can confirm the previous post by the Madrigal government. Originally, we were combining with Madrigal in the production of this proposal, because we all had a shared interest in the condemnation of CAS. Due to the aforementioned Scarlet-Truce Accord, they're no longer pursuing the condemnation. We still are.

Hopefully this helps clear things up further.

EDIT: Also, I just noticed this was submitted before adding an operative cause.

[The Black Dragon Empire]

Link to the submitted proposal: http://www.nationstates.net/page=UN_vie ... 1394065700

The Security Council,

RECOGNIZING that The Confederacy of Allied States is a large and active region with supposedly democratic ideals that recently underwent a revolution.

BELIEVING that as a region of this stature, the government of the Confederacy of Allied States should act with a certain set of expectations and decorum, and that the existing government not only ignored this set of operating principles, but acted in a manner that contradicted these expectations.

DISAPPOINTED that the manner in which the revolution took place was carried out was callous, and that the key proponent nations of the coup were malicious in the manner in which they treated observer nations seeking answers were treated regarding the situation.

SHOCKED that the immediate cause of revolution was the result of a biased 2-hour "poll", and that these actions undermined by undermining the rights of the member nations of the CASregion, that were unable to have a say in the workings of their the region's government, as guaranteed by the laws set forth by the government itself.

FURTHER SHOCKED at how the revolution affected the region of Madrigal, with certain key nations of the Confederacy of Allied States threatening military operations on the otherwise peaceful residents of Madrigal for merely commenting on the situation.

CONCERNED that the above actions could influence the present and future decision-making of developing regions, causing poorly handled government transitions and furthering native disruption across [Strike]NationStates.[/Strike]

BELIEVING that the condemnation of the Confederacy of Allied States may act as a deterrent forregions looking to model themselves after a larger, more active regions that may try similar tactics.

DETERMINING that the Confederacy of Allied States has shown conduct that is unbecoming of a large democratic region, and that the above offenses and their the Confederacy of Allied States' insufferable manner of conduct are is sufficient cause for the region's condemnation by the security council.

HEREBY CONDEMNS The Confederacy of Allied States

Co-authored by Ridersyl

Some edits/alterations so that it may not be removed for a fourth time for being illegal.

[Darwinish Brentsylvania]

How many times must this be stated? This is NOT a concern for the international community.

Yeah, I'm with him, this is a regional affair. Yeah, maybe a couple regions, but that doesn't really make a difference.

[Inventio]

How many times must this be stated? This is NOT a concern for the international community.

Yeah, I'm with him, this is a regional affair. Yeah, maybe a couple regions, but that doesn't really make a difference.

Pretty much this. There are a whole lot of fairly influential regions that are going to tell you to solve your disputes without running to the WA.

[Chester Pearson]

How many times must this be stated? This is NOT a concern for the international community.

But...but...but... someone insulted me and hurt my feelings, so I must condemn their entire region. That is all this is. Yet another schoolyard fight, that we are being asked to solve....