[ON HOLD] Condemn Dalimbar

[Abacathea]

Update: 7/12/13;


The drafts below were the alternate commend drafts I had toyed with. Having weighted up the sizeable information I've been inundated with, there's no way a commend of this nation will fly, that said, there is a considerable amount for a condemn. I'm leaving the two drafts below for the sake of transparency. I normally toy with multiple versions of things before settling on one, this attempt has been more transparent than the others and due to people skimming the comments this has been missed more than once. Anyone who comments on the change from commend to condemn as a result of not reading this will be understandable ignored and have their hand put in water while they sleep.

Aba.

• 
  Commend Dalimbar
  
  A resolution to recognize outstanding contribution by a nation or region.
  
  Category: Commendation | Nominee: Dalimbar | Proposed by: Abacathea

  
  
  The Security Council;
  
  Aware that the Commend and Condemn badges alike have naturally developed an ingrained trait of Defender and Raider marks respectively;
  
  Cognizant that Dalimbar has encompassed both aspects of these two respective traits throughout its NationStates tenure however;
  
  Resolved to acknowledging the roles Dalimbar has played as an international force in the above respects;
  
  Acknowledging Dalimbar's successful leadership of The North Pacific which resulted in his election across two terms before they couped the region in 2007 only to be democratically re-elected again in 2011;
  
  Impressed with the fact that Dalimbar has not only couped every one of the major 9 regions with exception of The Pacific;
  
  But further impressed; with the knowledge that they have also led counter coups in each of these regions as well;
  
  Believing that Dalimbar is a living example of a paradoxical force actively working within the NationStates universe and that all of its actions to date, irrespective of raider or defender have helped regions come together in one form or another;
  
  Convinced that when these actions are viewed cumulatively they cannot be labeled into either defender or raider and should be viewed as an effort to spur and increase activity within the international community which it has achieved successfully;
  
  Hereby;
  Commends Dalimbar

  
  
• 
  Commend Dalimbar
  
  A resolution to recognize outstanding contribution by a nation or region.
  
  Category: Commendation | Nominee: Dalimbar | Proposed by: Abacathea

  
  
  The Security Council;
  
  Aware that the Commend and Condemn badges have become inherently polarized in regards to defenders and raiders;
  
  Conflicted resultantly with how to acknowledge Dalimbar who has achieved a tremendous amount during its NationStates tenure as an individual entity and both a political raider and defender;
  
  Believing that Dalimbar is a living example of a paradoxical force actively working within the NationStates universe and that all of its actions to date, irrespective of raider or defender have ultimately been designed to benefit and better the regions they have interacted with through these mediums;
  
  Acknowledging Dalimbar's successful leadership of The North Pacific which resulted in his election across two terms which saw significant governmental progression towards the democratic TNP we know today, before couping the region in 2007 only to be democratically re-elected again in 2011;
  
  Cognizant of Dalimbar's membership in the RLA, an early defender group to emerge in the early R&D games of which Dalimbar played a significant role, which, coupled with the ADN, another defender region to emerge at the same time, saw the two organizations prove to be one of the strongest defender coalitions to exist within the NationStates universe;
  
  Further cognizant of Dalimbar's membership of The Empire, a group which with Dalimbar participated in the couping of The East Pacific for the purposes of installing a legitimate and operational government which the region lacked at that time;
  
  Aware that since it's foundation Dalimbar has either directly participated in the coup or provision of support to coups in all of the 9 founderless regions with exception of The Pacific and that while these actions out of context may paint a poor light on Dalimbar, its intent at the time was the installation of stable functioning governance in the respective regions, an ultimately commendable pursuit;
  
  Hereby;
  Commends Dalimbar

Current Draft:

Condemn Dalimbar

Believing that Dalimbar is a living example of a paradoxical force actively working within the NationStates universe and that across its tenure has been a sizeable political force;

Observing that the nation of Dalimbar was once a high ranking member of "The Empire" in the guise of "Lady Anastasia", an imperialist organization which once ravaged The East Pacific purely to prove it could be done, an operation in which Dalimbar was heavily active throughout;

Further aware that while the nation of Dalimbar has served as a legitimate delegate in The North Pacific on three separate occasions it also led a coup d'état against the region seizing power illegitimately back in 2007;

Cognizant that outside of Dalimbar's own illegitimate delegacies and coups d'état throughout the years, they have also lent considerable support to several other delegate coups over the years including All Good People's rogue delegacy in The North Pacific and Naivetry's rogue delegacy in The Rejected Realms;

Further cognizant that as a result of their own political coups d'état, and their having lent support and counsel to several illegitimate governments, Dalimbar has participated in the overthrow of eight of the largest and most populated regions of our day, with the exception of The Pacific;

Believing that this targeted and rapacious assault on several of the most powerful and prominent regions existing in the modern day is by no means a small feat, and cognizant that the nation of Dalimbar is still not only politically active but still as much of a potential threat now as it was in the past;

Hereby;
Condemns Dalimbar.

[The Black Hat Guy]

I see a lot of impressive accomplishments here (do you have sources of some kind? I apparently wasn't around for this), but nothing that strikes me as commendable yet. Did he do something during his coups that changed the regions for the better, influencing their politics or the like? It seems like he certainly could have done so in his many coups, but I'd like to see such things included, because a coup without cause (while increasing activity) only serves to destabilize a region - not commendable.

Increasing activity is well and good, but it's not a stand-alone reason for a commendation.

[Abacathea]

I see a lot of impressive accomplishments here (do you have sources of some kind? I apparently wasn't around for this), but nothing that strikes me as commendable yet. Did he do something during his coups that changed the regions for the better, influencing their politics or the like? It seems like he certainly could have done so in his many coups, but I'd like to see such things included, because a coup without cause (while increasing activity) only serves to destabilize a region - not commendable.

Increasing activity is well and good, but it's not a stand-alone reason for a commendation.

Fair point. I'm still in the research phase of this, so it's likely I will turn up some information to support it all and flesh it out further in due course. Currently the source is Osiran.

[The Black Hat Guy]

I'll look forward to the update.

Also:

NationStates universe and that all of their actions to date

Should be "its".

[Weed]

When did Dali coup The South Pacific?

[Dalimbar]

When did Dali coup The South Pacific?

I did not coup, but I was assisting both the Coalition side and the Sedge/Milograd sides at the same time. In the Sedge case, he had only contacted us the last day of his Delegacy, thus assistance was limited. I had acted as an observer in the Milograd case until the Coalition started to get its act together, and then worked with Biyah and a few others to put an end to it. You were in the counter-coup, so you will remember what was going on.

[Weed]

Impressed with the fact that Dalimbar has not only couped every one of the major 9 regions with exception of The Pacific;

But further impressed; with the knowledge that they have also led counter coups in each of these regions as well;

So these should be reworded to say that he has either supported or been involved in a coup in all 9 except The Pacific, but not both. And that's assuming that's also true of TWP, whose history I know very little about seeing as it is so uninteresting.

[Dalimbar]

Impressed with the fact that Dalimbar has not only couped every one of the major 9 regions with exception of The Pacific;

But further impressed; with the knowledge that they have also led counter coups in each of these regions as well;

So these should be reworded to say that he has either supported or been involved in a coup in all 9 except The Pacific, but not both. And that's assuming that's also true of TWP, whose history I know very little about seeing as it is so uninteresting.

Indeed, The Pacific has not been couped in the sense we term it since Francos took over. There have been palace coups, certainly, yet I was never involved in that. I have conspired against Moo and Krull, and they knew. I could not do anything to them, and they couldn't really do much to me. For a brief period of time, under Moo's Delegacy, I did have the password to his nation. Moo and I also had a fictional marriage for propaganda/lulz.

So, these lines needs to be fixed.

[Mad Jack]

When did Dali coup Balder, a region which has never been couped?

[Weed]

When did Dali coup Balder, a region which has never been couped?

Well the Lux thing did happen, but I don't think Dali was in on that.

[Mad Jack]

Does delegate insanity count as a coup?

[Frattastan II]

You cannot use personal pronouns.
"9 major regions" seems questionable, given that in various times some user-created regions certainly had more nations or were more relevant to world affairs than feeders/sinkers.

[Sedgistan]

I wasn't aware that Dalimbar was involved in any of NeeNee & Biyah's various coup attempts in TRR, though I could believe it.

[Weed]

Does delegate insanity count as a coup?

There are coups... everywhere.

[Abacathea]

I wasn't aware that Dalimbar was involved in any of NeeNee & Biyah's various coup attempts in TRR, though I could believe it.

I know Dali and Biyah were involved in several together.

I've had a TG or two suggesting how to handle this and giving support, so I'll spend a week or two working on this and see how it progresses.

[Charaxia]

An excellent candidate, thoroughly support.

[Frattastan II]

First, it should have more detailed references to specific coups or coup attempts, and Dalimbar's role in them.

Second, even assuming "promoting activity through coups" is a thing, you'll have to explain how it is aligned with the SC's goal of "Spreading interregional peace and goodwill" - if at all.

[Abacathea]

Second draft up, some sizeable changes made, still some ways away from finished mind you, but the research phase is moving slowly, so this is not the finished product.

[Unibot III]

What the fuck is this shit.

Cognizant of Dalimbar's membership in the RLA, an early defender group to emerge in the early R&D games of which Dalimbar played a significant role, which, coupled with the ADN, another defender region to emerge at the same time, saw the two organizations prove to be one of the strongest defender coalitions to exist within the NationStates universe;

He did not play a significant role in the RLA or the ADN from what I can see (without having been in the RLA or the ADN).

Further cognizant of Dalimbar's membership of The Empire, a group which with Dalimbar participated in the couping of The East Pacific for the purposes of installing a legitimate and operational government which the region lacked at that time;

Aware that since it's foundation Dalimbar has either directly participated in the coup or provision of support to coups in all of the 9 founderless regions with exception of The Pacific and that while these actions out of context may paint a poor light on Dalimbar, its intent at the time was the installation of stable functioning governance in the respective regions, an ultimately commendable pursuit;

The Empire oppressed The East Pacific for months and the region did not lack a "legitimate and operational government" -- that's incredibly insulting to The East Pacific, who worked hard to liberate their region from The Empire. Also, A Slanted Black Stripe was commended for ending The Empire's reign of terror... you want to also commend Dalimbar for helping to run it!?

Moreover, it's not clear Dalimbar has ever actually intended on installing a "stable functioning government" in any region he has couped. TNP and TSP and Osiris and others that he has helped couped were all stable functioning governments at the time of him attempting to coup them.

This commendation is a both a joke and a major insult to many different regions.

[Abacathea]

What the fuck is this shit.

Cognizant of Dalimbar's membership in the RLA, an early defender group to emerge in the early R&D games of which Dalimbar played a significant role, which, coupled with the ADN, another defender region to emerge at the same time, saw the two organizations prove to be one of the strongest defender coalitions to exist within the NationStates universe;

He did not play a significant role in the RLA or the ADN from what I can see (without having been in the RLA or the ADN).

Further cognizant of Dalimbar's membership of The Empire, a group which with Dalimbar participated in the couping of The East Pacific for the purposes of installing a legitimate and operational government which the region lacked at that time;

Aware that since it's foundation Dalimbar has either directly participated in the coup or provision of support to coups in all of the 9 founderless regions with exception of The Pacific and that while these actions out of context may paint a poor light on Dalimbar, its intent at the time was the installation of stable functioning governance in the respective regions, an ultimately commendable pursuit;

The Empire oppressed The East Pacific for months and the region did not lack a "legitimate and operational government" -- that's incredibly insulting to The East Pacific, who worked hard to liberate their region from The Empire. Also, A Slanted Black Stripe was commended for ending The Empire's reign of terror... you want to also commend Dalimbar for helping to run it!?

Moreover, it's not clear Dalimbar has ever actually intended on installing a "stable functioning government" in any region he has couped. TNP and TSP and Osiris and others that he has helped couped were all stable functioning governments at the time of him attempting to coup them.

This commendation is a both a joke and a major insult to many different regions.

It was merely a version of the draft I was toying with. You must have overlooked the part where I said it was far from finished Uni, I would imagine that occurred when you couldn't wait to pounce out of your box and tell me how wrong I was on all the defender/raider points.

Now that our respective bitchiness is out of the way, to which I'm surprised you came into this thread with in the first place, I'm sourcing information and trying a variety of different approaches towards commending/condemning Dali here.

Of Keynote is the fact that Dali has essentially sat on both sides of the spectrum, which makes recognizing any one set of accomplishments quite difficult without having to at least acknowledge the other. By going through the above drafting process it allows me to tune and refine it as information is gathered from those I've reached out to and those who participate in this forum. Essentially it should produce quite a refined product, or at least thats the hope.

If you have anything that you could lend to it in that regards, I'd be most happy for you to TG me and point me in an either or direction with some substantiated information. Until then, you've just given me stuff to remove from the present draft and nothing to add.

Aba

Edit - Also the RLA information has been confirmed, and until I'm told otherwise, it stays.

[Hobbesistan]

Not about to commend someone for couping a GCR.

[Ramaeus]

Not about to commend someone for couping a GCR.

My thoughts exactly.

As Uni said, the Empire oppressed TEP for 4 months. And, in my opinion, that occupation alone is worthy of a condemnation. If you actually want to get the full picture of how nasty the Empire's occupation of TEP was, take a look through TEP's forums. There's a lot of information there.
Edit: If you want a rough picture of the Empire's occupation, here's a summary of the events that I wrote: http://www.nationstates.net/nation=rama ... ok/id=main

[Abacathea]

Not about to commend someone for couping a GCR.

My thoughts exactly.

As Uni said, the Empire oppressed TEP for 4 months. And, in my opinion, that occupation alone is worthy of a condemnation. If you actually want to get the full picture of how nasty the Empire's occupation of TEP was, take a look through TEP's forums. There's a lot of information there.
Edit: If you want a rough picture of the Empire's occupation, here's a summary of the events that I wrote: http://www.nationstates.net/nation=rama ... ok/id=main

As I said prior this is about acknowledging the career of Dali to a certain extent. It has been suggested a respectful condemn might be appropriate which is an avenue I'm exploring hence why these are still far from the finished product.

[Babiana]

Looking forward to this one! And not even my most challenging one yet, but definitely in the criteria of overlooked nation I.M.O,

1. Tell us why are you so looking forward to commending Dalimbar?

As always, feedback appreciated! This is only the skeletal draft so I know it needs tidying!

2. Your organization of the draft may not be perfect, but you should be far more worried about the content, meaning and message of what you are proposing. Excuse me, but have you given that much thought?

(Image)
Commend Dalimbar

A resolution to recognize outstanding contribution by a nation or region.

3. Contribution means he has given something tangible to other nations of the world, and outstanding means that it's blindingly obvious what this supposed contribution is. If you are not sure what exactly he has given to the world, then how can his contribution be outstanding?

Category: Commendation | Nominee: Dalimbar | Proposed by: Abacathea

The Security Council;

Aware that the Commend and Condemn badges alike have naturally developed an ingrained trait of Defender and Raider marks respectively;

4. I dispute that, commends and condemns are to do with "good" and "evil" not the practices of raiding and defending. One side may be aligned to commend-worthy acts and the other damnable acts, but's certainly not the case that resolutions are divided along R/D lines - some defenses are arguably bad and some raids are arguably good. Condemnations are there to express shock and many defenders may deserve that. Do you honestly believe differently?

Cognizant that Dalimbar has encompassed both aspects of these two respective traits throughout its NationStates tenure however;

5. A commendation should concern itself with good acts, not evil acts.

Resolved to acknowledging the roles Dalimbar has played as an international force in the above respects;

6. Can you list instances of him playing the role of international force?

Acknowledging Dalimbar's successful leadership of The North Pacific which resulted in his election across two terms before they couped the region in 2007 only to be democratically re-elected again in 2011;

7. Essentially you are commending Dali's popularity through which he won elections despite committing acts which would be considered oppressive, i.e. bad, from a normal standpoint.

Impressed with the fact that Dalimbar has not only couped every one of the major 9 regions with exception of The Pacific;

8. Can you list the delegates that Dalimbar overthrew and the approximate dates? Once listed, in how many of those overthrows was he playing a lead role?

But further impressed; with the knowledge that they have also led counter coups in each of these regions as well;

9. Similarly, can you list the delegates that Dalimbar supported, and in what sense he 'led' the countercoup?

Believing that Dalimbar is a living example of a paradoxical force actively working within the NationStates universe and that all of its actions to date, irrespective of raider or defender have helped regions come together in one form or another;

10. Can you list in what sense each region benefited in terms of coming together, from the acts of this nation?

Convinced that when these actions are viewed cumulatively they cannot be labeled into either defender or raider and should be viewed as an effort to spur and increase activity within the international community which it has achieved successfully;

11. Did each instance actually spur activity?

Hereby;
Commends Dalimbar

(Image)
Commend Dalimbar

A resolution to recognize outstanding contribution by a nation or region.

Category: Commendation | Nominee: Dalimbar | Proposed by: Abacathea

The Security Council;

Aware that the Commend and Condemn badges have become inherently polarized in regards to defenders and raiders;

Conflicted resultantly with how to acknowledge Dalimbar who has achieved a tremendous amount during its NationStates tenure as an individual entity and both a political raider and defender;

Believing that Dalimbar is a living example of a paradoxical force actively working within the NationStates universe and that all of its actions to date, irrespective of raider or defender have ultimately been designed to benefit and better the regions they have interacted with through these mediums;

Acknowledging Dalimbar's successful leadership of The North Pacific which resulted in his election across two terms which saw significant governmental progression towards the democratic TNP we know today, before couping the region in 2007 only to be democratically re-elected again in 2011;

Cognizant of Dalimbar's membership in the RLA, an early defender group to emerge in the early R&D games of which Dalimbar played a significant role, which, coupled with the ADN, another defender region to emerge at the same time, saw the two organizations prove to be one of the strongest defender coalitions to exist within the NationStates universe;

12. Citation needed, who says he was in the RLA? What nation and region was he in under the Alliance Defense Network? The ADN is itself an organization with a questionable record.

Further cognizant of Dalimbar's membership of The Empire, a group which with Dalimbar participated in the couping of The East Pacific for the purposes of installing a legitimate and operational government which the region lacked at that time;

13. What evidence is there that the Empire intending anything of the sort? The actions of the Empire in The East Pacific did suggest less altruistic motives. See http://www.nationstates.net/nation=rama ... ok/id=main

Aware that since it's foundation Dalimbar has either directly participated in the coup or provision of support to coups in all of the 9 founderless regions with exception of The Pacific and that while these actions out of context may paint a poor light on Dalimbar, its intent at the time was the installation of stable functioning governance in the respective regions, an ultimately commendable pursuit;

14. Founderless is an error, there are many founderless regions. I believe you're referring to 9 of the 15 "game created regions", i.e. the 9 non-warzone GCRs.

Hereby;
Commends Dalimbar

15. As Unibot has said and Ramaeus has supplied background information for, this proposal is an insult to The East Pacific and probably is also to the many other regions graced by Dalimbar/Lady Anastasia.

16. Well done for being active enough to write something, it's certainly not easy, and you've made an effort. Unfortunately, some of us have a real problem with you commending Dalimbar. If you can make the effort to respond to all of my points, then you may change my mind. Currently, I think it's immoral to overthrow an established government, and Dalimbar, for all else that nation has achieved and all it represents, is still unworthy of commendation by the World Assembly Security Council.

[Zarkanians]

OOC: I misread the title as "Condemn Dalimbar;" I didn't realize my mistake until I was several posts into the thread. Strongly against, though I suppose that's not really important at the moment; regardless, I think you might be better off running a condemn.