[submitted] Commend The Pacific

[Iosac Kingborough]

The World Assembly;

NOTING the many years of stable government under the New Pacific Order (NPO) which The Pacific has witnessed;

APPLAUDING the tireless service of Krulltopia to maintaining the delegacy of The Pacific for more than three and a half years at the time of the writing of this resolution, an admirable achievement in a founderless region;

UNDERSTANDING that the New Pacific Order has established and maintained a consistent government in The Pacific for over ten years.

RECALLING SC resolution #51, commending Fudgetopia as the then longest serving delegate of a Pacific region, and noting this honour is now held by Krulltopia of the Pacific.

PRAISING The Pacific's admirable opposition to nazism and its long standing war on the Greater German Reich;

BELIEVING The Pacific to be a region dedicated to a stable and peaceful government that fosters an active region without the interference of radical ideologies such as nazism that contribute to anarchy and chaos;

UNDERSTANDING The Pacific possesses one of the oldest and most stable regional governments on NationStates;

ENCOURAGED by The Pacific's pioneering in the area of banning Regional Message Board (RMB) adspam.

REMEMBERING the other good deeds of The Pacific, such as being a founding member of the Sovereign Confederation alliance to protect regional sovereignty and its contributions to promoting interregional cooperation and communication through organisations such as the Modern Pacific Alliance.

NOTING The Pacific to be the birth place of Francoism, one of the most influential ideologies in the history of the world and still vividly remembered today.

HEREBY commends The Pacific.

[Milograd]

I think that saying "game created region" is a R4 violation.

[Iosac Kingborough]

True. Fixed.

[Cormac Stark]

You could probably get away with Feeder region instead of Game-Created Region, though I'm not sure. My official advice however is to turn back now while you still can, before this unleashes the monstrous storm of reaction and counter-reaction that is sure to ensue from any attempt to commend The Pacific. That's not even a judgment on whether or not The Pacific should be commended, for the record; I'm just acknowledging what reality will look like if this goes to a vote.

[Cerian Quilor]

Too short. Needs more meat. TP has been the same gov for 9 years, right? close, anyway. Put some more from the whole life of the region onto it before submitting either way.

[Feux]

Too short. Needs more meat. TP has been the same gov for 9 years, right? close, anyway. Put some more from the whole life of the region onto it before submitting either way.

I will have to agree with Cerian regarding this. Being a Pacifican myself, I highly support the idea of this proposal, however, there is much more that could be added to strengthen the proposal as a whole and prevent and or subdue the surely to come repeal attempts if this were to pass. Perhaps build on the ideologies that have fostered from the region and their impact on regional and international gameplay, however, that can get rather abstract and may not be best suited for a Security Council proposal. It would all come down to how you word it, and knowing full well a few experienced players have strong opposition to such things as Francoism, or just regionalism as a whole, be prepared to stand beside your clauses. You could also explore the regions international impact, much like you have already done with the clause regarding nazism. Maybe put in something about PNN as a more humorist clause. Feeders in general have a very large impact on gameplay for obvious reasons, however, I don't find it impossible to commend of condemn one like any over region. Just have to word it right.

You could probably get away with Feeder region instead of Game-Created Region, though I'm not sure. My official advice however is to turn back now while you still can, before this unleashes the monstrous storm of reaction and counter-reaction that is sure to ensue from any attempt to commend The Pacific. That's not even a judgment on whether or not The Pacific should be commended, for the record; I'm just acknowledging what reality will look like if this goes to a vote.

The word Feeder is not allowed if I remember correctly. Don't quote me though. Anyway, this is the Security Council Cormac. If people don't bitch about the proposal some how or another, whether it'd be a few words or an essay on why you shouldn't vote for it, then something must be terribly wrong. Your point is still very valid though. There will always be a group of people, small or large, inexperienced or a collection of old farts, that just blantly disagree. So you learn how to play the field, so you don't have to care what that group happens to think at the time.

Anyway King, just a little of this and that, not too bad at all. Hope I was any help.

[Topid]

Unless things have changed, "the Pacifics" should be used instead of "Feeder". There is no good term for the GCRs.

EDIT: Also, it may be worth noting that Commend Fudgetopia was authored by me when Krull was a younger delegate, and commends Fudgie for being the longest running delegate of *the Pacifics*. You could use that to support your argument, there is no rule against "House of Cards" here. So you could replace your "Applauding" line with something like "Remembering SC #51 Commend Fudgetopia, which recognized Fudgetopia for holding the record of longest consecutive delegacy in one of the Pacific regions, a record which the delegate of The Pacific, Krulltopia now holds,"

It might work better in a commendation of Krull but there's a suggestion.

[Feux]

Unless things have changed, "the Pacifics" should be used instead of "Feeder". There is no good term for the GCRs.

Right. I just bothered to look it up.

Feeder (as in 'feeder region') - illegal

[Cerian Quilor]

Well, it depends on who you're trying to commend. Krull or The Pacific. There is a lot to commend the Pacific for (and, arguably, Condemn them for, depending on who you ask . Personally. I say split the differance and give them both. ), but Krulltopia is at least arguably commend worthy, but that's an differant resolution.

[Feux]

Yep. Krulltopia would be a rather easy figure to commend FYI to anyone. I am pretty sure the proposal would have a majority feeder sinker vote for and maybe even 10KI vote in favor. Someone just has to write it. But I don't want to thread jack, back to topic.

[Bears Armed]

Why is not changing governments for three-and-a-half years a point that some people consider worth commending?

[Dremono]

The World Assembly;

NOTING the many years of stable government under the NPO which The Pacific has witnessed;

APPLAUDING the tireless service of Krulltopia to maintaining the delegacy of The Pacific for more than three and a half years at the time of the writing of this resolution, an admirable achievement in a founderless region;

PRAISING The Pacific's admirable opposition to nazism and its long standing war on the Greater German Reich;

BELIEVING The Pacific to be a region dedicated to a stable and peaceful government that fosters an active region without the interference of radical ideologies that contribute to anarchism and chaos;

UNDERSTANDING The Pacific possesses one of the oldest and most stable regional governments on NationStates;

HEREBY commends The Pacific.

Opposed-You have applauded a player in one reason-not the Pacific. It is a feeder, and is founderless like you stated. Nobody "Holds Up," the government. They were almost completely wiped out by some zombies. Having an old government is not the best thing to have, and for reasons above I disagree with stable.

[Anime Daisuki]

Yep. Krulltopia would be a rather easy figure to commend FYI to anyone. I am pretty sure the proposal would have a majority feeder sinker vote for and maybe even 10KI vote in favor. Someone just has to write it. But I don't want to thread jack, back to topic.

I will seriously consider voting for if the nominee is Krulltopia. As for TP itself, I think there are some issues with the idea of nominating a feeder. It's the same as awarding the Nobel Peace Prize to an adolescent. You never know what the teen might do when he grows up. Feeder politics can shift when another delegate is in place.

[Cerian Quilor]

And when exactly is another delegate going to run TP?

[Frattastan II]

without the interference of radical ideologies that contribute to anarchism and chaos

"Anarchism" should be "anarchy". >_>

[Feux]

And when exactly is another delegate going to run TP?

Whenever Krull wants.

[Unibot III]

NOTING the many years of stable government under the NPO which The Pacific has witnessed;

Purely because the implementation of "Regional Influence" and the further entrenchment of The Pacific's autocratic regime has made it nigh impossible for democratic grassroots campaigns to overthrow the New Pacific Order.

APPLAUDING the tireless service of Krulltopia to maintaining the delegacy of The Pacific for more than three and a half years at the time of the writing of this resolution, an admirable achievement in a founderless region;

The amount of time that one serves, when it is done so with no ballot box and a ruthless regional security mechanism, should not be met with praise from The World Assembly Security Council.

PRAISING The Pacific's admirable opposition to nazism and its long standing war on the Greater German Reich;

This is a very simple discourse which avoids the fact that The Pacific's campaign is based on the hatred of "ad-spammers" -- which is why organizations like The Greater German Reich (who adspam regularly) get targeted by The Pacific, but all of the spin-offs of GRR that have been created in retaliation to the near-destruction of GRR, haven't been pursued nearly as forcefully.

BELIEVING The Pacific to be a region dedicated to a stable and peaceful government that fosters an active region without the interference of radical ideologies that contribute to anarchism and chaos;

This clause is ridiculous. The word you're looking for in regards to radical ideologies is "Democracy". An authoritarian regime fosters a relatively inactive region, as Krulltopia demonstrated for at least most of his term as Delegate, meanwhile these authoritarian regimes are almost always built on radical ideologies and rhetoric that is at the very least chaotic.

The Pacific is currently transitioning away from Francoism, to what appears to be popular Westwindean values. For years it propped up its regime with the brutal rhetoric of "
the Pacifics and the Feederites, as the oppressed class, to rise up, throw off their chains", these chains being the "political institutions and systems that play on popularly held preconceptions of new and experienced Feederites alike, brainwashing them into subjugation until Stockholm Syndrome sets in and they'll be thanking the slave owners for the few scraps they receive". *

* From "Proper Francoist Thought", by Unlimited.

UNDERSTANDING The Pacific possesses one of the oldest and most stable regional governments on NationStates;

And least democratic. Right...

I think your case is extremely weak. The East Pacific, The South Pacific and The North Pacific have all had stable long terms (there are such things as "term-limits" in these regions, but The South Pacific was led for three years by Fudgetopia) and have also have been critical of extreme and hateful ideologies. I think you've picked, perhaps, the worst feeder to make your case with.

[Gasponia]

I like how your attempts to criticize The Pacific have no basis in the actual substance of The Pacific, and all boil down to the prattling of a spoiled child who's peeved because everyone else refuses to believe what he believes. Regarding The Pacific's ideological shift, there's nothing "westwindian" about it. It doesn't need labeling, to be frank, and even if what we believed needed labeling, you would be least qualified and least able to do so. Nor, I would note, do you have an actual grasp of the fundamental tenets of Francoism, despite repeated attempts from a variety of individuals to correct your inaccuracies. Careful, Uni, your ignorance and ineptitude is showing.

Nationstates is engaging, vibrant, and ever-changing because of its diversity. The Pacific is an integral part of that diversity. You can cast it in all the bitter, spiteful, self-righteous rhetoric you want, but the fact of the matter is that The Pacific has a long history of presenting a different gameplay experience from any other GCR, and consistently presenting a different experience to new players. Every GCR has its own culture, and makes its choices for itself. The Pacific is no different. Who are you to judge what is better and what is worse? Who are you to tell another region whether its government is right or wrong? You've never even been a proper Pacifican, and your only substantive connection to The Pacific has been your constant attempts to denigrate it, all of which stem from a place of ignorance and self-interest. Your feeble complaints here are no different.


Edit: With that out of the way, on a more formal note, The Pacific is humbled at the idea that such a proposal is even being considered. The Senate and Delegate do not believe it would be appropriate for us to participate in the development of this resolution - it is for the community to decide whether nearly a decade of stability, security, and active involvement throughout the gameplay world, is worthy of commendation. I'll keep an eye on the thread, though, solely to ensure that any factual matters raised regarding TP's history and leadership are conveyed as accurately as possible - as we all know there's lots of room for spin, and a discussion such as this must be based on fact rather than conjecture. I can't, and will not, ban ordinary Pacificans from discussing this matter, but neither the Senate nor the Delegate will participate in the editing of the language of this proposal. On behalf of The Pacific, thank you all for your earnest and objective attention to the history and integrity of our home.

[Cormac Stark]

I found during my (albeit brief) time in The Pacific that the government was quite open to the views of ordinary Pacificans, and that big decisions were not typically just made by Krulltopia and the Senate without any input from others. Krulltopia was more open to others' perspectives than some democratically elected Feeder and Sinker Delegates with whom I've interacted over the past year. Democracy does not always guarantee a seat at the decision making table and alternative forms of government do not always equal autocratic dictatorship. The world isn't that black and white. The Pacific does struggle with activity, but not any moreso than some other Feeders and Sinkers which are more democratic -- so I don't think the explanation for their activity issues can be reduced to their form of government. They would likely also argue that activity if it comes from outside the region and pushes an external agenda is activity not worth having, and there's some merit to that argument.

This is not to say I'm in favor of this commendation. I think it's too thin on details in its present form, and any commendation should have a more detailed and probably more balanced approach to The Pacific's history. I also think the general argument made by others against commending any Feeder or Sinker has some merit. But I don't think the reason for opposing this commendation should be a black and white, factually incorrect interpretation of The Pacific's history that reduces one of the most significant regions in NationStates history to a badly propagandized caricature.

I would also caution against people living in glass houses throwing stones. I don't recall having a vote on how to deal with recent, significant events within The United Defenders League or even being asked for my input. These decisions were at best made by a small group of Lieutenants appointed by the Chief of the Band, roughly the size of the Senate appointed by Krulltopia, and at worst solely by a Chief of the Band who is at the end of the day as much an unaccountable autocrat as Krulltopia if not moreso. After all, Krulltopia can at least in theory be removed from power through popular uprising and game mechanics; there is no similar mechanism within The UDL to remove the Chief of the Band. I would prefer to clean up our own house before we tell others how to do so. If democracy and accountability are best for The Pacific surely they are also best for The UDL. Let's practice what we preach or, failing that, stop preaching it and leave Feeders and Sinkers of which we are not even natives or citizens to govern themselves without our probably unwelcome input.

[Biyah]

I think I would support this over a commend of Krull himself. Not that he doesn't deserve it, but the regime is older and more established than he alone is.

I think, what I find most amusing - is not only the thought that The Pacific is moving to 'westwindian' values, but that those so called values were coined and established before Westwind became involved. The old PRP would be turning over in their graves to hear that term applied to them, with or without its logical fallacy.

History fail, take 3.

[Cerian Quilor]

And when exactly is another delegate going to run TP?

Whenever Krull wants.

But whoever Krull appoints as his successor is almost certainly going to continue his policies, no?

[Feux]

Whenever Krull wants.

But whoever Krull appoints as his successor is almost certainly going to continue his policies, no?

Eh, then it is whatever they want. Can't say.

[Cerian Quilor]

But Krull is hardly going to appoint someone who has views radically differant than himself. That's succession 101.

[Feux]

But Krull is hardly going to appoint someone who has views radically differant than himself. That's succession 101.

Well of course. Just every Emperor can be different. It is important to take that into account.

[Iosac Kingborough]

Too short. Needs more meat. TP has been the same gov for 9 years, right? close, anyway. Put some more from the whole life of the region onto it before submitting either way.

I will have to agree with Cerian regarding this. Being a Pacifican myself, I highly support the idea of this proposal, however, there is much more that could be added to strengthen the proposal as a whole and prevent and or subdue the surely to come repeal attempts if this were to pass. Perhaps build on the ideologies that have fostered from the region and their impact on regional and international gameplay, however, that can get rather abstract and may not be best suited for a Security Council proposal. It would all come down to how you word it, and knowing full well a few experienced players have strong opposition to such things as Francoism, or just regionalism as a whole, be prepared to stand beside your clauses. You could also explore the regions international impact, much like you have already done with the clause regarding nazism. Maybe put in something about PNN as a more humorist clause. Feeders in general have a very large impact on gameplay for obvious reasons, however, I don't find it impossible to commend of condemn one like any over region. Just have to word it right.

You could probably get away with Feeder region instead of Game-Created Region, though I'm not sure. My official advice however is to turn back now while you still can, before this unleashes the monstrous storm of reaction and counter-reaction that is sure to ensue from any attempt to commend The Pacific. That's not even a judgment on whether or not The Pacific should be commended, for the record; I'm just acknowledging what reality will look like if this goes to a vote.

The word Feeder is not allowed if I remember correctly. Don't quote me though. Anyway, this is the Security Council Cormac. If people don't bitch about the proposal some how or another, whether it'd be a few words or an essay on why you shouldn't vote for it, then something must be terribly wrong. Your point is still very valid though. There will always be a group of people, small or large, inexperienced or a collection of old farts, that just blantly disagree. So you learn how to play the field, so you don't have to care what that group happens to think at the time.

Anyway King, just a little of this and that, not too bad at all. Hope I was any help.

Thank you for your comments Feux. If you wouldn't mind I will consult with you and other Pacificans I now on the Pacific's history and then post an expanded version of this as I am only nearing my first year on NationStates so I can hardly speak on the Pacific's detailed history without some information.

[quote=Topid]EDIT: Also, it may be worth noting that Commend Fudgetopia was authored by me when Krull was a younger delegate, and commends Fudgie for being the longest running delegate of *the Pacifics*. You could use that to support your argument, there is no rule against "House of Cards" here. So you could replace your "Applauding" line with something like "Remembering SC #51 Commend Fudgetopia, which recognized Fudgetopia for holding the record of longest consecutive delegacy in one of the Pacific regions, a record which the delegate of The Pacific, Krulltopia now holds,"

It might work better in a commendation of Krull but there's a suggestion.[/quote]

Than you for this idea. I have added a clause similar to this.

Opposed-You have applauded a player in one reason-not the Pacific. It is a feeder, and is founderless like you stated. Nobody "Holds Up," the government. They were almost completely wiped out by some zombies. Having an old government is not the best thing to have, and for reasons above I disagree with stable.

Really what do zombies have to do with a serious SC resolution? As for long serving not being a good thing, that really depends on your perspective.

without the interference of radical ideologies that contribute to anarchism and chaos

"Anarchism" should be "anarchy". >_>

Oops. Fixed.

snip

Really, democracy is not always good; though I wasn't really referring to democracy in that clause anyway.. And I echo Cormac's point - don't throw stones in glass houses, you rule the UDL as a dictator yourself.