SUBMITTED: Liberate Feudal Japan

[Janet Dobinson]

Moreover, as I've said on here, the last invader delegate could have easily made the same argument about wanting to re-found, i.e. I need to eject nations from behind a password to make the process safe. That clearly wouldn't have been acceptable then so why should it be now?

Except that after the last invader delegate had finished ejecting residents he (or his allies) then kept the region locked-down under a password for something like two years before the 'Liberation' proposal became possible: How about allowing the current delegate a few weeks to prove their intentions before jumping on them like this? Unless of course, your true intention to to both prevent refounding and remove the password so that the invaders can have another go at seizing control?
(And you still haven't answered the question about which of the ejected nations you've actually spoken with about this, and how -- if they haven't logged into their nations since being ejected -- you've managed to contact them...)

Like I said above, I'm not primarily interested in seeing The Koz displaced. If it does impinge on the re-founding, well with due respect, the delegate should have thought about that before ejecting a load of nations from behind a password.

I actually spoke to two nations prior to the eviction after they received a telegram (like me) from Koz saying: "Greetings; please leave the region now, in support of boosting the delegate's influence so the regional password may be more quickly imposed - thank you." They, like me, didn't agree with another password being imposed, so didn't leave. As has been noted, they haven't logged in since, so I haven't spoke to them since. The fact remains we still have ejections from behind a password, there's no other way to slice it.

I'm being consistent, if nothing else.

[Janet Dobinson]

Janet, something you seem to leave out of your definitions, which unfortunately is the crux of the matter, is intent.

Ejecting nations is ejecting nations, no more and no less, without intent to provide context. A native Delegate doing it to refound is perfectly fine; griefing is when a non-native crashes the region and ejects nations for the purpose of destruction and harm. Similarly, the original liberation was to enable a long-overdue counter-strike against invaders who had taken the region and systematically destroyed it (a very slow griefing if you will), and hand control back to the old native Delegate and recognised (by the natives) Head of the region - for the purposes of re-founding as was quite openly discussed.

It's not a matter of "preferred" nations - the whole liberation/counter-attack/repeal thing wasn't an attempt by an old boy's club to stick a friend of the defenders into power, it was restoring the native Delegate. Once the natives are back, I hardly see how it can be the business of others to decide how they wish to run the region. KoZ and his government are the legally recognised native Government across NS; he is Shogun in direct descent from the original Founder and Shogun of the region, and to ensure an invasion does not happen to the region -again-, he has chosen to safeguard the region by refounding it. Once that has occurred no doubt all those who wish to return (bar perhaps the original invaders ) will be allowed to do so, and the free-for-all open policy will in fact be protected by the fact that an active Founder will now be available - there will be no need for suspicion about new entrants.

As for your premise - passwording a region is a perfectly legitimate feature created and allowed by the game admins. The way you talk it is as if you wish to start a grand crusade to have passwords banned - if you think the game would be better without passwords that's fair enough, but that is a topic for a game mechanics forum, not something that should be done by removing the password on one region at a time through SC resolutions, systematically removing the choice from every founderless region irrelevant of their situation. SC resolutions are not meant to be broad statements on policy across all of NationStates, they are meant to be specific resolutions on specific matters, and a general dislike of Delegates passwording regions is not legitimate grounds for this resolution in my obviously not humble opinion.

How can these former residents, missing from the region for some two years, be 'natives'? They themselves are invaders! Just because they happened to once reside in the region does not give them a right to 'refound their own region'. If we go by that logic, I want to refound Belgium because I spent some months there and signed up to the off-site forum.

As for the password, I'm not against passwording regions one iota! In this specific case I am, since The Koz was essentially re-empowered by the actions of the last delegate of Feudal Japan (password, ejection) and has since committed the same MO. Oh but that's ok right?

[Alf Landon]

How can these former residents, missing from the region for some two years, be 'natives'?

They were the original residents of the region until invaders came along and kicked them out. By anyone's book, they're natives.

[Janet Dobinson]

How can these former residents, missing from the region for some two years, be 'natives'?

They were the original residents of the region until invaders came along and kicked them out. By anyone's book, they're natives.

Well, that page is missing in my book.

[Madazi]

How can these former residents, missing from the region for some two years, be 'natives'?

They were the original residents of the region until invaders came along and kicked them out. By anyone's book, they're natives.

Well, that page is missing in my book.

Then you have no right to interfere in our affairs. You can check our forum, or any of our other resources. We -are- the natives. We were deposed and griefed two years ago when we were invaded. KoZ held tenaciously in the region until just a couple months ago. The region was a target of nothing less than belligerent and slow griefing. -ALL- native regions were tossed out, the region passworded and left to rot. The invading delegate only logged on -just- in time to prevent himself from being deleted.

The original liberation was to give the natives, who you can solidly track to the region of "Tokugawa Japan", a new fighting chance at reclaiming what they NEVER STOPPED FIGHTING FOR.

The repeal of that liberation was to allow us, the natives, a safe screen from behind which we could solidly refound. This password is necessary to ensure that the region is emptied. We don't want it to be left to rot, like the original griefers! After two years, we want to retake it, prevent it from being able to be griefed so tragically once again by refounding, and rebuild once more. As mentioned multiple times, we -will- allow an open-door policy. We -will- accept any ejected non-WA members to return, and we -will- allow the community to rebuild.

What you are trying to do is re-open the door for invasion and prevent the natives from reclaiming their region. We have fought for two years, and we will be -damned- if we are denied our victory because someone can't do a little research, nor has the patience to see the promises of the native community delivered upon. We waited two years to see this through, now you can't wait a few weeks to allow us to do what we promised and show you that we will -not- leave the region to die behind a password with a measly four nations in it.

KoZ was there at the founding by Nobunaga's Revenge, and I was there barely months after that. -BOTH- of us actively led the region before the attack, and both of us have had active leadership in the community-in-exile, residing in Tokugawa Japan. As such, seeing this pains us because people who are too young in the game cannot do a little research. It is time we liberate Feudal Japan; not from the invaders, not from the native delegate and true heir, but from the tyranny of the masses who understand little about our fight, nor care enough about it to stop and think.

[Flibbleites]

This draft is ridiculous. I first joined whe "Liberate Feudal Japan" was at the vote. I then witnessed "REPEAL Liberate Feudal Japan" and here again I see "Liberate Feudal Japan".

This is exactly like the "Condemn Grub"/"Condemn Daynor" situation. It mainly occurs because some person decides to get involved in breaking the 4th wall.

Yeah, it's like the SC has only two records to play and they're both broken.

Don't forget Nazi Europe.

That one hasn't been done to death, yet.

[Neasmyrna]

How can these former residents, missing from the region for some two years, be 'natives'? They themselves are invaders! Just because they happened to once reside in the region does not give them a right to 'refound their own region'. If we go by that logic, I want to refound Belgium because I spent some months there and signed up to the off-site forum.

As for the password, I'm not against passwording regions one iota! In this specific case I am, since The Koz was essentially re-empowered by the actions of the last delegate of Feudal Japan (password, ejection) and has since committed the same MO. Oh but that's ok right?

It's basically you against the world on this one. The natives that were banned are all puppet nations not one in the WA and most of them are more than 20 days inactive.

You say the population has gone down... heck ya... you wanted the defenders to leave right?

It must be griefing that we're leaving the region as the delegate gets enough influence I guess.

If you weren't an invader puppet who knows nothing about the region except that defenders are helping in there you could possibly understand what I'm saying or the natives are saying.

Since you're not listening or thinking about anyone is saying here I will try my best to stop posting unless you say even more incredibly false things than usual.

[Gobbannium]

This draft is ridiculous. I first joined whe "Liberate Feudal Japan" was at the vote. I then witnessed "REPEAL Liberate Feudal Japan" and here again I see "Liberate Feudal Japan".

This is exactly like the "Condemn Grub"/"Condemn Daynor" situation. It mainly occurs because some person decides to get involved in breaking the 4th wall.

Yeah, it's like the SC has only two records to play and they're both broken.

Don't forget Nazi Europe.

That one hasn't been done to death, yet.

The SC's very own instance of Godwin's Law.

[Yamamoto Kansuke]

DISAPPOINTED that the current delegate of Feudal Japan, The Koz, after being granted the ability to re-institute the password through the retiring of SC#6, has subsequently exploited this power to either eject or ban and eject a large number of nations, including...The Fiefdom of Yamamoto Kansuke

heh I just woke up to find my name on a resolution?

Um...I would thank the writer for the "concern" but I am fine with being ejected. The refound has been the plan all along and KoZ has contacted me about it.

[Madazi]

DISAPPOINTED that the current delegate of Feudal Japan, The Koz, after being granted the ability to re-institute the password through the retiring of SC#6, has subsequently exploited this power to either eject or ban and eject a large number of nations, including...The Fiefdom of Yamamoto Kansuke

heh I just woke up to find my name on a resolution?

Um...I would thank the writer for the "concern" but I am fine with being ejected. The refound has been the plan all along and KoZ has contacted me about it.

You see? You're creating a whole big crap-storm over -nothing-. NOTHING.

[Janet Dobinson]

DISAPPOINTED that the current delegate of Feudal Japan, The Koz, after being granted the ability to re-institute the password through the retiring of SC#6, has subsequently exploited this power to either eject or ban and eject a large number of nations, including...The Fiefdom of Yamamoto Kansuke

heh I just woke up to find my name on a resolution?

Um...I would thank the writer for the "concern" but I am fine with being ejected. The refound has been the plan all along and KoZ has contacted me about it.

You see? You're creating a whole big crap-storm over -nothing-. NOTHING.

You may call systematically ejecting nations from the region 'nothing' now, but I think I can safely assume it wasn't 'nothing' when the previous raider delegate was doing it. Kansuke is only one of the numerous nations to be ejected, ejections which stretch all the way back from The Koz through The Sedge and on to Grozni. Nevertheless, even if he/she doesn't mind the fact remains that there have technically been ejections from behind a password.

Besides, looking at approvals for this proposal so far, its not even approaching a storm in a teacup.

[Daynor]

Moreover, as I've said on here, the last invader delegate could have easily made the same argument about wanting to re-found, i.e. I need to eject nations from behind a password to make the process safe. That clearly wouldn't have been acceptable then so why should it be now?

Except that after the last invader delegate had finished ejecting residents he (or his allies) then kept the region locked-down under a password for something like two years before the 'Liberation' proposal became possible: How about allowing the current delegate a few weeks to prove their intentions before jumping on them like this?

Belgium.

Macedon might have opened the region just as KoZ is saying he's going to, we don't know. All we know is that when Macedon did it, it was unacceptable!! Burn them at the steak!

KoZ and Sedge say the same thing, fine.

Gotta love defender logic.

[Madazi]

DISAPPOINTED that the current delegate of Feudal Japan, The Koz, after being granted the ability to re-institute the password through the retiring of SC#6, has subsequently exploited this power to either eject or ban and eject a large number of nations, including...The Fiefdom of Yamamoto Kansuke

heh I just woke up to find my name on a resolution?

Um...I would thank the writer for the "concern" but I am fine with being ejected. The refound has been the plan all along and KoZ has contacted me about it.

You see? You're creating a whole big crap-storm over -nothing-. NOTHING.

You may call systematically ejecting nations from the region 'nothing' now, but I think I can safely assume it wasn't 'nothing' when the previous raider delegate was doing it. Kansuke is only one of the numerous nations to be ejected, ejections which stretch all the way back from The Koz through The Sedge and on to Grozni. Nevertheless, even if he/she doesn't mind the fact remains that there have technically been ejections from behind a password.

Besides, looking at approvals for this proposal so far, its not even approaching a storm in a teacup.

We're taking back our region, regardless of your 'approval' or lack thereof. -We- built it, -we- nurtured it, -we- fought for it, and -we- WILL refound it.

The previous raider delegate was just that, a raider against the natives. The current delegate is the rightful, appointed delegate as decided upon by the original members of the region. Our liberation movements were -not- against -any- so-called natives, they were against raiders only. Anyone who was an innocent in the way has been apologized to and invited back after the refounding.

This is -not- defender or raider logic. At this point in time, we don't care about those politics. All we care about is retaking -our- region. And that is what we will do, even if a raider is so damned determined as to use a puppet to introduce more legislation to 'liberate' our region from its rightful owners once more.

[Janet Dobinson]

That's very nice. Apologies and invitations eh? Put that in a bottle and you'll be a millionaire in no time.

So, you can condone griefing but only when you are doing it?

Also, from my perspective there's no such thing as 'rightful owners' in this game. It's that kind of thinking which breeds and then justifies the hypocritical actions we've seen in Feudal Japan.

You speak of a puppet? This is my main nation! You can tarnish me all you want by calling me a 'raider', but the fact remains I'm being more principled than many a defender.

[Neasmyrna]

You speak of a puppet? This is my main nation! You can tarnish me all you want by calling me a 'raider', but the fact remains I'm being more principled than many a defender.

This could very well be possible. But if so... I am greatly impressed with the amount of knowledge you have on such a complicated manner that has been in the works for many years before you even had heard of NS.

And I'm also impressed that you speak so similarly to all the other invaders...

and even more impressed that you have developed such a strong hate for defenders in such a short amount of time especially as you have spent most of the last 50 days floating between regions

And MOST impressed that you personally feel a need to watch over the region of Feudal Japan and keep it from being re-founded by people who at worst could be considered "evil defender puppets" and more correctly "natives."

So you basically just impress me... that's all.

[Janet Dobinson]

You speak of a puppet? This is my main nation! You can tarnish me all you want by calling me a 'raider', but the fact remains I'm being more principled than many a defender.

This could very well be possible. But if so... I am greatly impressed with the amount of knowledge you have on such a complicated manner that has been in the works for many years before you even had heard of NS.

And I'm also impressed that you speak so similarly to all the other invaders...

and even more impressed that you have developed such a strong hate for defenders in such a short amount of time especially as you have spent most of the last 50 days floating between regions

And MOST impressed that you personally feel a need to watch over the region of Feudal Japan and keep it from being re-founded by people who at worst could be considered "evil defender puppets" and more correctly "natives."

So you basically just impress me... that's all.

Thanks! I aim to please! But what's so complicated about it? Invader delegate ejects nations from behind a password; Password is removed because of this; New invader delegate (x2) also then ejects nations from behind a password; New proposal for the password to be removed. Facts surrounding these episodes are readily available: they have been documented through threads, WFE's, RMB's, regional happenings, national happenings, word of mouth, etc.

Er, I don't 'hate' defenders: I do tend to self-loathe a little bit now and again like everyone but nothing too over the top.

Basically I'm just impressed that I impress you so much (and that you can hear me speak)!

I guess you're not in favour of this proposal then? May I enquire as to why? I thought it would have been right up your street...

[Daynor]

I may see if I can set down for an hour or two and telegram all the delegates I did for my proposal about this one. I can't say for sure, my proposal is going to take priority when it comes to my time, but I'll help where I can.

I don't see why this is any worse than the first Liberation.

[Janet Dobinson]

I may see if I can set down for an hour or two and telegram all the delegates I did for my proposal about this one. I can't say for sure, my proposal is going to take priority when it comes to my time, but I'll help where I can.

I don't see why this is any worse than the first Liberation.

Exactly! This liberation proposal is just as warranted as the first, possibly even more so given the current delegate is acting in the very same way which led to the last delegate being removed.

I appreciate that Daynor, whatever time you can spare is great.

[Knights of Zion]

There's a false equivocation being made here between the first liberation action and this supposed followup, but I trust that has become obvious to all.

What's equally obvious to me is that this resolution was drafted, ready and waiting for the inevitable evidence of ejections required prior to refounding before being hastily tabled and the endorsements sought for it within a day's time. This resolution, in other words, was clearly premeditated as opposed to being launched in justly protest. It cannot conceivably receive support from anyone who knows the facts and who does not sympathize with the invader cause.

I hope - and expect - that the refounding will finally put an end to all this nonsense, as we (the natives) would like to be well rid of it. Invading/defending was never an aspect of the game that interested us, and the sooner we can be divested of it the better. We're far more creative pursuits to be spending our NS time on, as I think our off-site forum amply demonstrates.

[Daynor]

There's a false equivocation being made here between the first liberation action and this supposed followup, but I trust that has become obvious to all.

Your extreme detail here has changed my mind!
Or not.

What's equally obvious to me is that this resolution was drafted, ready and waiting for the inevitable evidence of ejections required prior to refounding before being hastily tabled and the endorsements sought for it within a day's time. This resolution, in other words, was clearly premeditated as opposed to being launched in justly protest. It cannot conceivably receive support from anyone who knows the facts and who does not sympathize with the invader cause.

Because 12 (by my count on my computer's screen) lines of text is too much for someone to write within an hour.

I hope - and expect - that the refounding will finally put an end to all this nonsense, as we (the natives) would like to be well rid of it. Invading/defending was never an aspect of the game that interested us, and the sooner we can be divested of it the better. We're far more creative pursuits to be spending our NS time on, as I think our off-site forum amply demonstrates.

Re-founding. The most hated phrase by 99% of defenders, yet okay when used in this case. I wonder why?

[Janet Dobinson]

There's a false equivocation being made here between the first liberation action and this supposed followup, but I trust that has become obvious to all.

What's equally obvious to me is that this resolution was drafted, ready and waiting for the inevitable evidence of ejections required prior to refounding before being hastily tabled and the endorsements sought for it within a day's time. This resolution, in other words, was clearly premeditated as opposed to being launched in justly protest. It cannot conceivably receive support from anyone who knows the facts and who does not sympathize with the invader cause.

I hope - and expect - that the refounding will finally put an end to all this nonsense, as we (the natives) would like to be well rid of it. Invading/defending was never an aspect of the game that interested us, and the sooner we can be divested of it the better. We're far more creative pursuits to be spending our NS time on, as I think our off-site forum amply demonstrates.

What is equally obvious to me is the apparent distain in which you hold the WA/SC given your reference to this as 'nonsense'. Let's not forget which institution placed you upon your current perch. Talk about biting the hand that feeds....

So, don't forget that you essentially got your toe in the door thanks to the last delegate (well, the one before Sedge) who systematically ejected from behind a password. These actions got the SC involved. You have committed the same actions. The SC will hopefully get involved again. No matter how you carve that cake up, you shouldn't (in an ideal world) be able to have it and eat it.

Thus, the two liberation proposals are exactly alike in their conception and in what they intend to prevent.

Plus, this proposal might not only appeal to the invader cause. It could also appeal to anyone who does not tolerate griefing in any form, or the hypocrisy and bankruptcy of some defenders, or people who feel compelled to remind others who the daddy is.

Also, what Daynor said.

[Naivetry]

Like I said above, I'm not primarily interested in seeing The Koz displaced. If it does impinge on the re-founding, well with due respect, the delegate should have thought about that before ejecting a load of nations from behind a password.

Oh, don't worry, we'll keep it in mind next time, so you can't take advantage of the same situation again.

I actually spoke to two nations prior to the eviction after they received a telegram (like me) from Koz saying: "Greetings; please leave the region now, in support of boosting the delegate's influence so the regional password may be more quickly imposed - thank you." They, like me, didn't agree with another password being imposed, so didn't leave. As has been noted, they haven't logged in since, so I haven't spoke to them since.

Emphasis mine, because it brings out an important fact, here. I'll leave aside the question of which nations they were, although I would certainly be more inclined to believe you if you could actually produce one. The point is:

If they haven't even logged back into their nation, then we can all see how much they really care.

That, my friends, is the difference between what you are doing here, and the original resolution to Liberate Feudal Japan. The people who had been ejected, banned, and kept out of the home they had built, desperately wanted to return.

It's the difference between what you're doing, and Belgium. When natives were ejected there, we launched the largest public awareness campaign that I have ever seen in this game, in support of the ejected nations who came here and told their story to the rest of the world. They did not want a raider delegate dictating to them how they should run their own community. The question was not whether or not he would have been a benevolent tyrant, but whether the people wanted him there in the first place. And for several months, we heard repeatedly that they did not.

But here, despite the expressed wishes of every member of Feudal Japan's community who has posted in this thread, you insist on attempting to liberate their region... from them.

The fact remains we still have ejections from behind a password, there's no other way to slice it.

The fact remains that you've taken it upon yourself to dictate to a group of nations what they can and cannot do with their own region when you cannot produce a single member of the region who has objected to what is going on.

I really don't want to hear about how defenders are the ones destroying regional sovereignty again - this is far more of an infringement on the right of a native community to decide what is best for itself than we have ever presumed to make.

I'd like to give you credit for taking a stand on your principles on this one, but I'm afraid I can't, since you're posting from a puppet whose name and principles you can drop as soon as it's convenient not to have to live up to your statements here.

I've asked you repeatedly to tell me for whose benefit you are proposing this resolution.

- It is clearly not for the benefit of the natives of Feudal Japan.
- It is clearly not for the benefit of any of the ejected nations, since you cannot produce a single one.*
- It is clearly not for the benefit of the larger NS community, which, as reflected in several posts earlier in this thread, is getting rather tired of the revolving door of SC resolutions.

It must be for yourself and for the raiders who would like nothing better than to interfere with the natives of the region they lost in any way they can.

If there's a possibility I'm overlooking here, please enlighten me.

* Not one who agrees with you, at any rate.

[Goobergunchia]

Could you change the topic title to "SUBMITTED: Liberate Feudal Japan" or something to that effect? "QUORUM" implies that the proposal has reached quorum, which it hasn't.

[Janet Dobinson]

Could you change the topic title to "SUBMITTED: Liberate Feudal Japan" or something to that effect? "QUORUM" implies that the proposal has reached quorum, which it hasn't.

Done.

[Goobergunchia]

Thanks.