[DRAFT] Condemn The Red Fleet

[Nationalist State of Knox]

but because you are now working with Knox as an invader, Knox being an ex member of GGR a famed Nazi region. Ergo, Fascist.

You can call me a Fascist as many times as you want, it still doesn't make it any more true.

[Manegarmr]

Much as I would love to see the Red Fleet condemned, I think that Fratt has the measure of the motivation for this, and it belittles the Security Council to present such a proposal for what amounts to a spat between former allies

[Defendingg]

Much as I would love to see the Red Fleet condemned, I think that Fratt has the measure of the motivation for this, and it belittles the Security Council to present such a proposal for what amounts to a spat between former allies

Someone else could write it.

Regardless, the libel of capitalist and IMF, as well as the invasion of CPA is grounds enough for a condemnation.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

The Security Council;

NOTING that ANTIFA was once a venerable antifascist organisation, setting out to make the world a better place,

PRAISING the leadership of the nation of Proletaurus, ANTIFA's previous commander, under which the organisation prospered, destroying many fascist regions in the process and spreading the righteous cause of antifascism,

AWARE that control of ANTIFA recently passed to the nations of La Pasionaria and Marxingrad, both senior members of The Red Fleet,

NOTING that since then, The Red Fleet has increased its control over ANTIFA, to the extent that dissenting nations, and those offering other opinions, and now driven out of the organisation and labelled as "fascist collaborators",

DISMAYED by this dictatorial control of the organisation, sadly very much changed from its previous leadership

FURTHER AWARE that since the coup d'état within ANTIFA, the name ANTIFA has been used in various attacks upon non-fascist regions in an attempt to legitimise them,

DISGUSTED that one of these victim regions, Corporate Profit Alliance, had possessed an embassy with ANTIFA for 1 year before its invasion by the Fleet,

VIEWING this attack as a naked act of aggression upon an innocent region, carried out in order to "purge" ANTIFA of all non-communist elements and so bring the organisation more fully under the Fleet's command,

ALSO TAKING INTO ACCOUNT the Fleet's tendency to try and dictate the foreign policy of regions with which it has embassies in order to bend them to its will,

ALARMED by these grotesque violations of regional sovereignty,

OBSERVING WITH CONSTERNATION the complete refusal of the Red Fleet's High Command, including those nations which now control ANTIFA, to be held accountable for or attempt to justify their actions,

HEREBY CONDEMNS The Red Fleet.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's just a draft, and it needs work, but I thought it seemed OK as a beginning. Please feel free to tear into it.

Oh, and to pic-quote Koth from a couple of days ago,

(Image)

So I've seen about 3-4 attempts at trying to condemn Antifa in this forum. I expected this sooner or later. From you FreeSoc? I'm disappointed.

Seemingly everyone is. Meh. The reason that I'm attempting to condemn The Red Fleet and not ANTIFA is because the recent actions in regions such as Corporate Profit Alliance, and the forcing out of regions such as Asgard, simply because you disagree with them, regardless of how Antifascist they are, would suggest that The Red Fleet's increasing influence over the organisation - yes, I know Proletaurus was in the Fleet, but an atmosphere of tolerance prevailed back then - is nothing but negative. That, and the grievous misuse of the name "ANTIFA" on a region that was not fascist, regardless of what ideological hoops you jump through trying to prove it, is despicable, given that you're essentially taking a more respected name to justify your own imperialist antics.

I want to make a couple of comments, if I may?

Certainly, there's no thread ownership in the SC.

Proletaurus was a senior member of The Red Fleet, along with myself and La Pasionaria, we were all Admirals in the Fleet when we ran Antifa.

I know.

Proletaurus resigned from the Fleet the same time he handed the administrative controls of Antifa to myself and La Pasionaria.

And while the Fleet's actions were disagreeable in the international community before your and LaPas' ascension to prominent positions in it and control of ANTIFA, they've certainly become more hardline and more imperialistic since then.

Antifa has almost always been run by a member of the Fleet, it's just changed hands a little bit (I say almost, because Antifa existed, I believe, before Proletaurus was a member of the Fleet) and it was Proletaurus himself that took both IMF and Capitalist.

Something which is also condemnable, given that ANTIFA is mentioned in Capitalist's WFE - soon after the phrase "extremely violent re-education process", which is itself condemnable hate-speech. You're advocating violence and oppression while simultaneously talking about "freeing the oppressed". It's hypocrisy and it's...I don't know what the word is. It's unpleasant.

VIEWING this attack as a naked act of aggression upon an innocent region, carried out in order to "purge" ANTIFA of all non-communist elements and so bring the organisation more fully under the Fleet's command

This comment is just wrong. Consider that no-one, except yourself, has left Antifa since the invasion of CPA began.

That clause is poorly-worded, I'll fix it. Given that Asgard were a part of the Antifascist struggle under the latter stages of Proletaurus' command (which was brought to an end by Prole himself 83 days ago), and indeed for a few days afterwards, but that they were gradually driven out by LaPas' rhetoric-without-facts for weeks, culminating in their denunciation around 50 days ago, I think it's fair to say that The Red Fleet is in no small part responsible for the gradual expulsion of elements with which they disagree in ANTIFA. ANTIFA used to be an interregional thing, now it's dominated by the Fleet in a way that it wasn't before.

Oh, that and the fact that the anti-Asgard campaign was stepped up by the Fleet to the extent that it demanded to UNAF, presumably not alone, that all contacts with Asgard had to be terminated essentially because the Fleet disagreed with it.

Not only that, but you were ejected from Antifa before it had come to light that an operation was going on in CPA. You were also ejected not because of any Capitalist sympathies, you still try and maintain you are a libertarian leftie of sorts, but because you are now working with Knox as an invader, Knox being an ex member of GGR a famed Nazi region. Ergo, Fascist.

Because people never change.

I stand by the Command's decision to attack CPA, if members of Antifa feel they have been poorly represented by this attack, it is entirely up to them to publicly distance themselves from this act as they choose,

Let's see what BLACKMASK said on the ANTIFA WFE 48 days ago, shall we?

"Basically, don't use the Antifa brand name to endorse your product, or ideology. Then those of us who aren't Dialetic-Materialists or "commies" if you prefer, won't be labelled as such."

And so the Fleet can be said to be taking ANTIFA down a road along which some if its members don't want to go. It's a takeover.

but your general line of argument is simply false, because primarily it suggests there has been a monumental change in who "leads" Antifa. Antifa has no "leadership", the Fleet does, and the region is maintained by members of the Fleet.

As the region is "maintained" by Fleet leadership, and none are allowed into the region without the prior approval of the Fleet's commanders, I think it's fair to say that the Fleet have always controlled it but that now their expansionism is becoming more obvious.

The Fleet has not initiated any takeover of Antifa. It appears you now disagree with the goals of the Fleet,

"Freeing the oppressed" while attacking anything that isn't Fleet, using the ANTIFA name to justify it? That's a pretty disagreeable goal, even for an anti-capitalist. That, and the hate-speech scrawled across Capitalist is deeply unpleasant and perhaps says more about the Fleet's character than you might like to admit.

though you once were a leading Antifascist

What gives the Fleet and ANTIFA a monopoly on Antifascism?

and self-proclaimed libertarian. It seems your entire cause for concern is actually more an issue of semantics.

No, it's more to do with the fact that the Fleet is acting in an increasingly imperialistic manner, has dramatically increased its influence within ANTIFA, has warped the foreign policy of Antifascists in order to meet its own ends, has spread hate-speech and has misused the name of ANTIFA for its own actions, against the wishes of ANTIFA members.

The difference between what I get up to and what the Fleet get up to is that I don't attempt to justify what I do except for a half-arsed piece of semi-satire in Gameplay, whereas the Fleet is acting in an increasingly aggressive and imperialistic manner, something that needs to be stopped if it's to maintain even a shred of its credibility. If the Fleet can't self-criticise, self-analyse and change its own behaviour on that basis, then maybe it's the SC's job to lend a helping hand.

Much as I would love to see the Red Fleet condemned, I think that Fratt has the measure of the motivation for this, and it belittles the Security Council to present such a proposal for what amounts to a spat between former allies

Surely if you agree with the aims, then you could put aside your objection to me writing it in order to get it passed? Having said that, if my name on it is going to be a significant barrier to passing it, then I would in theory be happy for someone else to submit it, having got my approval first, and then putting my name on the bottom as the author.

[Manegarmr]

Much as I would love to see the Red Fleet condemned, I think that Fratt has the measure of the motivation for this, and it belittles the Security Council to present such a proposal for what amounts to a spat between former allies

Surely if you agree with the aims, then you could put aside your objection to me writing it in order to get it passed? Having said that, if my name on it is going to be a significant barrier to passing it, then I would in theory be happy for someone else to submit it, having got my approval first, and then putting my name on the bottom as the author.

If that were the only reason then yes I might however

• Although my own organisation is Anti-Fascist, we are also pro-imperialist, and it would therefore be hypocritical of me to condemn the Red Fleet just because they may be displaying Imperialist tendencies
• You may also find that the Red Fleet''s contributions to the defense of their "fellow" left wing regions a hurdle which may be hard to overcome, especially in the ranks of the defenders-although I am aware that their "raiding" of right wing regions is frowned upon by the UDL/FRA, Red Fleet units have participated in vital defenses alongside these organisations, and in all probability these actions would have failed without their participation
• On balance,their operations have raised the awareness of the fascist threat more than any other military organisation in Nationstates in recent memory
• Setting aside differences in ideology,execution or even firepower, the Red Fleet is doing no more and no less than any other military organisation engaged in gameplay, yourself included
• The passing of such a condemnation on the grounds stated is therefore not only dishonorable, but sets a precedent for ANY raider to be condemned merely for having the "invader" tag on their WFE, something that the raider community would not thank you for

So really, the reasons given in the original draft are, IMHO, not sufficient grounds to get this through the SC, and, if you should by some miracle succeed in getting it through would be a dangerous piece of legislation to have on the books

Not to mention the publicity you are giving to your opponents by airing these sour grapes in public

[Nodin]

NOTING that since then, The Red Fleet has increased its control over ANTIFA, to the extent that dissenting nations, and those offering other opinions, and now driven out of the organisation and labelled as "fascist collaborators",

It's not that I'm against your proposal because you're always one of the first to abuse and indiscriminately apply the fascist/fascist collaborator label. . .

viewtopic.php?p=10476872#p10476872
viewtopic.php?p=10478655#p10478655

FURTHER AWARE that since the coup d'état within ANTIFA, the name ANTIFA has been used in various attacks upon non-fascist regions by the Fleet in an attempt to legitimise these attacks, despite the objections of some of the nations within ANTIFA,

. . . or because I know you're a Liberal revolutionary socialist supporting the armed revolution and overthrow of capitalism, and couldn't care less about the destruction of CPA and other capitalist regions—or even that you led the assault on Corporate Fascism, a predominantly corporatist region . . .

http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=1892490

AWARE that control of ANTIFA recently passed to the nations of La Pasionaria and Marxingrad, both senior members of The Red Fleet,

. . . or because you ridiculed a condemnation of your comrades (viewtopic.php?p=10872722#p10872722) until you were labeled a 'fascist collaborator', ejected from Antifa and disgraced by La Pasionara and Marxingrad on The Internationale and Antifa RMBs . . .

http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=1902517
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=1909832
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=1909935
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=1893827

DISGUSTED that one of these victim regions, Corporate Profit Alliance, had possessed an embassy with ANTIFA for 1 year before its invasion by the Fleet,

. . . or even because you drafted your proposal a few hours after I stated an intent to do the same, adding that I'd be unable to give it my attention for a couple weeks. Were I in give-a-shit mode, I might be mildly piqued that you used my research on CPA to give your proposal teeth. You didn't think twice about CPA until I posted the Google Cache and embassy info. Yeah, Eureka, man. Without that, your proposal would be nothing more than transparent payback. Some see it for what it is anyway.

NOTING that ANTIFA was once a venerable antifascist organisation, setting out to make the world a better place

I'm opposed to your proposal in part because of the Communist/Leftist slant. I'm a First Amendment kind of guy. No organization dedicated to crushing a political ideology—however unpopular—warrants veneration. I don't share the radical left and Communist vision of a better world.

PRAISING the leadership of the nation of Proletaurus, ANTIFA's previous commander, under which the organisation prospered, destroying many fascist regions in the process and spreading the righteous cause of antifascism,

I'm also opposed to your proposal because it pays homage to a player who deserves positive recognition less than any other I can think of at the moment. Prolesky's handiwork on Capitalist's WFE represents his softer side—in my association with him. He's come forward to say that he supports CPA's destruction and ANTIFA's direction.

Righteous cause of antifascism: more Communist/radical left propaganda. There's no virtue in vigilantism. Perhaps you'll eventually see the light now that you—a misguided witch hunter in your own right—have been run out of town as a fascist/fascist collaborator.

DISMAYED by this dictatorial control of the organisation, sadly very much altered from its previously more tolerant leadership,

Again, the previous leadership is on board with Antifa's new direction. Where are Antifa's 'saddened' rank and file, 'dismayed' by the 'dictatorial control'?

You want to stick it to La Pasionara and Marxingrad for the public tar and feather—yeah, I get that. I also get that you want to go easy on the left. Here you are back in April on the 'Condemn The International' thread:

The Internationale raid really, really rarely - in fact, as far as I'm aware, they refound more than they raid, and they refound rarely. Some of their members may raid as members of The Red Fleet, or simply as part of Antifa. No-one is denying that. Those guys (Antifa etc.) raid like crazy, so condemn if you want, although it won't be appreciated by the Left, but you shouldn't condemn The Internationale because some of its members raid on behalf of an umbrella organisation to which The Internationale belongs.

viewtopic.php?p=9075934#p9075934

You and 'those guys' weren't yet in bed together, yeah? Bold move, condemning your own. I understand that sparing feelings ensures your survival in the Communist community. Your survival and the left's delicate sensibilities are of no concern to me. I believe Kikomunisti when he says he wants a badge. He's in CPA roasting bankers and the Haves. Pretty sure Hungry Freaks wants a badge for Have-hunting. He's worked himself up into high dudgeon, reliving his past victimizations 'at the hands of the fascist state'. This antifascist business seems to be therapy for a lot of you folks—at the expense of others trying to do their thing in the game. Your proposal rewards The Red Fleet.

From Antifa FAQ:

Q: What is general purpose of The region?


A: Fight against Nazism, Fascism, Racial supprematism and Intolerance in NationStates by means of Military Game Play. Forum for dedicated Antifascists and museum region for Antifascist Victories. Antifa is umbrella organisation which unites different organisations and individuals fighting against Fascism.
--- --- ---
I've encountered some of the organizations and individuals united under the Antifa umbrella—including Black Mask. They're equally delusional (yet arguably entertaining) witch hunters in my opinion and deserve a condemnation for their 'righteous' efforts. Not one is complaining about the Antifa seal of approval on CPA's RMB and WFE. Antifa has enjoyed a considerable amount of community support targeting fascists and Nazis and those who are not. Antifa needs to answer for its deviated agenda. It's time the organization is discredited.

AGAINST your proposal to condemn The Red Fleet. Stick it to Antifa and edit out the commie crap and you'll have my support.

[New Sloveniakia]

On Nationalist State of Knox being fascist or not: I believe you when you and FreeSoc say you are no longer a fascist. May I ask, though, which of the three Soldiers of the Aryan Taskforce continues to hold Oblivion gate and The Nine Gates of Hell with "Heil" messages on the WFE? The other Conquered Regions of The Aryan Taskforce have been de-Nazified apparently, but not those two.

... not that it's 100% relevant, but it would clear up a few things for me about this whole collaborationist accusation.

[Feux]

To me, this seems motivated by a personal grievance between the author and his former group.

---

"The Security Council

Noting my grievances with the current leadership of group,
Aware that I dislike NationA and NationB because they kicked me for working with an imperialist region,
Curiously noting that I'm not particularly concerned with the concept of sovereignty of any region, being an invader myself,

Hereby adds some operative clause."



Opposed.

This.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

On Nationalist State of Knox being fascist or not: I believe you when you and FreeSoc say you are no longer a fascist. May I ask, though, which of the three Soldiers of the Aryan Taskforce continues to hold Oblivion gate and The Nine Gates of Hell with "Heil" messages on the WFE? The other Conquered Regions of The Aryan Taskforce have been de-Nazified apparently, but not those two.

... not that it's 100% relevant, but it would clear up a few things for me about this whole collaborationist accusation.

Thank you for actually observing and responding to facts, comrade.

About Aryan Taskforce - that'll be German. He's not in TGKoP any more.

Also, Knox never actually signed up to the AT as far as I'm aware, German just made a list of names and acted as if it was a sign-up process.

Just a more general point about this proposal: I'm not even entirely certain if I'm ever going to submit it or not. All I hope that it does, whether submitted or not, is encourage some measure of accountability, honesty and self-criticism within the Fleet.

[New Sloveniakia]

Okay, thanks.

[Vakolic]

Let us add the cases of kolovo and alliance of the axis powers to the case.

These regions are 2 historical regions of the silver isles. Me and my fellow members have asked the red fleet and antifa leadership on multiple occasions for the return of these non-fascist regions, and we have been greeted with hostility and even a threat of war from Marxingrad. Therefore, I can honestly say that I support this resolution.

[Norsklow]

There are too many causes listed. Including some that we take exception to.

Nonetheless, we support this proposal and will vote 'AYE'.