(DRAFT)Condemn AntiFa

[Jekrehnot]

''Antifacist''?Does that mean they are against faces?

[Defendingg]

This all makes lovely reading. Let's just point out a couple of things. Antifa and The Red Fleet are closely aligned but not always the same thing. For those class concious workers, the differences between Capitalism and Fascism are nominal, one is the last stand of the other, the two are inseparable on a class basis, both are enemies of the working classes.

Whether or not that region is "fascist" may be up for dispute, but it's vastly oppressive nature towards the great toiling masses is self evident. So, in the immortal words of Rage Against The Machine, directed at the great working classes:
"Seize tha metropolis. It's you it's built on."

One more swallow in the cuckoo's nest? This thread's still a last pitiful stand for a group of people who like to play "soldier" but can't field an army!

so just to be clear, you have moved past just attacking fascist regions, to attacking capitalist regions now?

see bold: so you admit you have no idea if they were a fascist region.

but it's vastly oppressive nature towards the great toiling masses is self evident

That's your opinion.

[Nodin]

Whether or not that region is "fascist" may be up for dispute

Antifa has become so brazen it thinks juvenile equivocation and a Venn diagram are enough wool to cover the SC's eyes.

the differences between Capitalism and Fascism are nominal

One wonders how much more rope you and your comrades will be given to impose your warped politics on peaceful, defenseless regions. It's like Lord of the Flies on CPA's RMB: Kill the capitalist pig, cut his throat, spill his blood!

The tirades are stunning: anti-Americanism, anti-SCOTUS, anti-capitalism, anti-imperialism, anti-wealthy, anti-Thatcher, anti-class. Poor pitiful British children denied their milk, poor miners, widows, single mothers, college students, working class, Arabs, Iranians and their neighbors, immigrants, druggies and sundry criminals. All that abuse heaped on a peaceful capitalist region that even had an embassy with Antifa. Should anyone bother to uncover the suppressed posts, they'll see some of the natives walking on eggshells, fearful of an Antifa invasion; trying to tailor their beliefs to pacify the most intolerant, hateful and aggressive raiding organization in the game.

so just to be clear, you have moved past just attacking fascist regions, to attacking capitalist regions now?

Antifa has been attacking and destroying capitalist regions with impunity for a while now.

[Kikomunisti]

so just to be clear, you have moved past just attacking fascist regions, to attacking capitalist regions now?

That infers we had the limited mandate of attacking fascist regions in the first place. The Red Fleet has never imposed such limits on itself.

see bold: so you admit you have no idea if they were a fascist region.

No. I said it's up for debate. It didn't classify itself as Fascist, that doesn't mean to say it is or isn't. I merely said that it's up for debate. I've my opinions, and I still stand by my decision and the Fleet's decision to engage in that region. Regardless of any debate about it's "Fascist" qualities or lack of.

That's your opinion.

It's not solely mine though, otherwise it'd be a lonely raid for myself...

Antifa has become so brazen it thinks juvenile equivocation and a Venn diagram are enough wool to cover the SC's eyes.

the differences between Capitalism and Fascism are nominal

One wonders how much more rope you and your comrades will be given to impose your warped politics on peaceful, defenseless regions. It's like Lord of the Flies on CPA's RMB: Kill the capitalist pig, cut his throat, spill his blood!

Emotive language Cpt Woodhouse. Wrong. That's the great thing about emotive language. When used liberally, you can try and demonise or justify anything can't you...

The tirades are stunning: anti-Americanism, anti-SCOTUS, anti-capitalism, anti-imperialism, anti-wealthy, anti-Thatcher, anti-class. Poor pitiful British children denied their milk, poor miners, widows, single mothers, college students, working class, Arabs, Iranians and their neighbors, immigrants, druggies and sundry criminals. All that abuse heaped on a peaceful capitalist region that even had an embassy with Antifa. Should anyone bother to uncover the suppressed posts, they'll see some of the natives walking on eggshells, fearful of an Antifa invasion; trying to tailor their beliefs to pacify the most intolerant, hateful and aggressive raiding organization in the game.

If they were walking on eggshells, that implies they were actually concealing their true intentions, or at the very least diluting them to appease us. So would you rather them be more opposed to us? That would surely then justify even moreso our engagement there?? Also you talk about intolerance, but lump in widows, immigrants and Arabs with "druggies and sundry criminals". Your hatred for those who don't fit into your little conservative model of white, male-dominated Europe/America is almost seeping over, better try and put a liberal lid on it soon!!

Antifa has been attacking and destroying capitalist regions with impunity for a while now.

It's not our fault you can't muster more than a handful of soldiers at best... you don't have to cry about it so much do you???

The edit was due to two misplaced {/quote} codes.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

Oh wow, that is interesting. Turns out that Corporate Profit Alliance did have an embassy with Antifa, created 1 year and 62 days ago - i.e. last August/September.

http://www.nationstates.net/page=region ... t_alliance

A quick CTRL+F of the word "Antifa" turns up the goods. Now here's the question - why are you attacking your own allies, or rather regions with which you had embassies?

Why is the word "ANTIFA", explicitly denoting "AntiFascism", scrawled across a region that was never fascist and never displayed fascist tendencies?

Why is predation on relatively innocent regions being carried out by those acting in ANTIFA's name?

Is rabid anticapitalism now ANTIFA policy, and if so, why isn't this being made clearer? I wouldn't have an issue if it was actually declared to be official ANTIFA policy, because at least then it would be honest.

What I find amusing is that former members of ANTIFA have been accused of raiderist tendencies, and now ANTIFA is going the same way. It's probably condemnable, to be honest.

Granted, it's an awful, awful proposal, and given its drafter's origin I hope it never reaches quorum, but the discussion after it raises some very interesting points.

[Cromarty]

Why is the word "ANTIFA", explicitly denoting "AntiFascism", scrawled across a region that was never fascist and never displayed fascist tendencies?

Better question: Why does Antifa maintain gameside embassies with regions with the fascist tag?

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

Why is the word "ANTIFA", explicitly denoting "AntiFascism", scrawled across a region that was never fascist and never displayed fascist tendencies?

Better question: Why does Antifa maintain gameside embassies with regions with the fascist tag?

Ooh! Ooh! Which ones?

[Cromarty]

Better question: Why does Antifa maintain gameside embassies with regions with the fascist tag?

Ooh! Ooh! Which ones?

I pointed them out some time ago to the current head of the organisation, can't remember all of them nor can I be bothered to look through another 450 embassies.

[Defendingg]

With the facts better established, Antifa should not (yet) be condemned. In regards to the Corporate Profit Alliance griefing raid, has anyone seen a direct link to Antifa, other than someone just plastering their name to the WFE?

BUT rather the Red Fleet has surely earned one.

Someone should restyle this draft to a condemnation of the Red Fleet. The sophomoric equivocation of capitalism = fascism is childish, combined with the fact that corporate profit alliance did no raiding.

Also, the revelation of CPA having an embassy with ANTIFA is interesting, but a condemnation of the Red Fleet could easily be passed without it.

It all basically boils down to the Red Fleet greifing a region, calling them fascists (see the CPA WFE now), and then admitting that they might not be actually fascist, and then saying "lol capitalism = fascism."

[Defendingg]

by Free South Califas » Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:32 am

There is no such thing as a peaceful Nazi, only one who has yet to fully commit.

Do you have proof that they are nazis? If you do, please provide it.

[ForeStarnya]

The Red Fleet , broadly speaking, subscribes to a Communist philosophy

As this ideology is diametrically opposed to capitalism it should come as no surprise that we consider capitalist regions as legitimate targets

If you are uncomfortable with that truth then , as the saying goes, that is your problem

We will continue to defy any that seek our destruction and will take whatever steps are necessary to ensure our survival and that of our comrades

If you would care to check our history you will find that we regard your constructs of "raiding" "defending" and "griefing" as abstracts that are obsolete and redundant.

[Defendingg]

from capitalist

"The Capitalist sentenced to suffer hard and Extremely violent re-education process in Militant hands of Permanently Revolutionary Un-Capitalist Antifascists of The NationStates by The Red Fleet and Syndicated Red Black Tendencies of The Internationale.

*Tormented Poor little Capitalist Crying it's Agony of Horrible Destiny and Eternal Despair*

Seized, Confiscated and Re-educated for Celebrating MAY DAY of year 2012 without Mercy.

SRBT"

please explain "Extremely violent re-education process"?

more:

from SRBT

> Syndicated Red Black Tendencies <-

"SRBT will keep these Nazi/Fascist Hellholes Permanently Out of Order:
KKK
NSDAP
White Power
White Aryan Resistance
The Aryan Army
Blood and Honor
Fascist Union
Anticommunist Union
Anders Behring Breivik
AntiJihadism
The Falange Movement
Adolf Hitler
Hitler Jugend
Anti Leftist League
Alliance of National Socialist Nations
The National Socialist Nations
Fascist deutschland
New national socialists
United national socialist states
Imperial Nazi Germany
Mein Kampf
Dictators of the world Unite
Fascist America
The 3rd reich
The fourth german reich
WaffenSS
The Nazi Europe
Reichskommissariate der NE
Capitalist
IMF

ONLY GOOD NAZI IS A DEAD ONE!"

I fail to see how capitalist and IMF are Nazi/Fascist regions.

[Cromarty]

Because they aren't.

AntiFa are just raiders who will fit their target selection into their ideology later. There's no doubt that many members of AntiFa actually value the fight against fascism etc, but in it's current form, AntiFa is just a raider organisation.

[Kikomunisti]

Oh wow, that is interesting. Turns out that Corporate Profit Alliance did have an embassy with Antifa, created 1 year and 62 days ago - i.e. last August/September.

http://www.nationstates.net/page=region ... t_alliance

A quick CTRL+F of the word "Antifa" turns up the goods. Now here's the question - why are you attacking your own allies, or rather regions with which you had embassies?

Why is the word "ANTIFA", explicitly denoting "AntiFascism", scrawled across a region that was never fascist and never displayed fascist tendencies?

Why is predation on relatively innocent regions being carried out by those acting in ANTIFA's name?

Is rabid anticapitalism now ANTIFA policy, and if so, why isn't this being made clearer? I wouldn't have an issue if it was actually declared to be official ANTIFA policy, because at least then it would be honest.

What I find amusing is that former members of ANTIFA have been accused of raiderist tendencies, and now ANTIFA is going the same way. It's probably condemnable, to be honest.

Granted, it's an awful, awful proposal, and given its drafter's origin I hope it never reaches quorum, but the discussion after it raises some very interesting points.

Oh look. The ex-UNAF guy now decides to intervene. It's never been Antifa's official policy to target Capitalist regions, that right is reserved by The Red Fleet and any others who have similarly aligned goals. The monica "Antifa" has been used by the delegate heading the mission, that isn't to say specifically that it's endorsed by Antifa, or that Antifa's policy is to attack Capitalist regions. Nonetheless, The Red Fleet is a member of Antifa and we felt that this raid constituted close enough to an "Antifascist" operation.

It interests me that you're well aware of the internal workings of "Antifa" and yet misrepresent the facts so much. I've been warned about you. I've also heard you promoted the ideal of attacking regions that were "Stalinist" or "Maoist", how very Antifascist of you. Hypocrite!

Because they aren't.

AntiFa are just raiders who will fit their target selection into their ideology later. There's no doubt that many members of AntiFa actually value the fight against fascism etc, but in it's current form, AntiFa is just a raider organisation.

As for this statement. It's absurd. Clearly stated on the Antifa WFE is it's principles.

The Red Fleet has made no bones about it's Socialist/Communist ideals, and therefore the gunning against Capitalist regions should come not only as no surprise, but if anything the converse, it should be expected.

It's even stated by our Admiral in this thread not more than two posts above your very own benign comments:

The Red Fleet , broadly speaking, subscribes to a Communist philosophy

As this ideology is diametrically opposed to capitalism it should come as no surprise that we consider capitalist regions as legitimate targets...

If you would care to check our history you will find that we regard your constructs of "raiding" "defending" and "griefing" as abstracts that are obsolete and redundant.

You (Cromarty) have provided no semblance of justification or evidence to substantiate your claims, you've also conventionally ignored or forgotten the fact that The Red Fleet has engaged in a multitude of defence missions, many of regions that are "non-aligned" so to speak (not directly allied with regions who make up The Red Fleet) if we're "just a raider organisation", then why do we defend? Clearly defenders cannot grasp or choose to misappropriate the reality of the situation for their own ends, to paint "Antifa" and all of it's affiliates as a hard-line raiding group that deserves no distinction from the likes of the Black Hawks/Riders.

The rhetoric being thrown around here is amusing, common tropes are used without clarification or understanding and generally the goals and interests are skewed and misrepresented. The draft was proposed by a member of well known Nazi-raider region and the other largest has representatives (in all sorts of disguises admittedly) commenting as well. The rest of you are either fascist collaborators/appeasers/protectors or a selection of a few misguided and jaded individuals who have taken some comment or manoeuvre here or there as a personal slight. The lack of interest in this thread probably proves that you're unable to actually get such a condemnation to pass. The new precedent set by notable forces arrayed against Nazi Europe probably spells the general sympathy with our cause, even if there are few as militant as The Red Fleet itself.

All in all, I doubt if the Fleet got a condemnation it'd affect it in any negative way, and personally I'd quite like a condemnation badge (if ones going so easily), so guys have at thee!

"Fighting fascism is a social duty, not an antisocial crime."

[Norsklow]

Security Council
Spreading interregional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary

The Security Council recognizes and responds to individual nations and regions, with the aim of ensuring global harmony.

Inasmuch AntiFa considers Capitalist regions legitimate targets for un-peaceful and decidedly unharmonious activities, AntiFA should be condemned.

If AntiFA objects to being tarred with the broad brush, bleating that it is just one in their midst, let them purge themselves from any and all members that are unwilling to commit themselves to peaceful and harmonious coexistence with Capitalist regions.

Indeed, the question should be raised of whether the very existence of AntiFa is compatible with the very purpose of the Security Council.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

Oh wow, that is interesting. Turns out that Corporate Profit Alliance did have an embassy with Antifa, created 1 year and 62 days ago - i.e. last August/September.

http://www.nationstates.net/page=region ... t_alliance

A quick CTRL+F of the word "Antifa" turns up the goods. Now here's the question - why are you attacking your own allies, or rather regions with which you had embassies?

Why is the word "ANTIFA", explicitly denoting "AntiFascism", scrawled across a region that was never fascist and never displayed fascist tendencies?

Why is predation on relatively innocent regions being carried out by those acting in ANTIFA's name?

Is rabid anticapitalism now ANTIFA policy, and if so, why isn't this being made clearer? I wouldn't have an issue if it was actually declared to be official ANTIFA policy, because at least then it would be honest.

What I find amusing is that former members of ANTIFA have been accused of raiderist tendencies, and now ANTIFA is going the same way. It's probably condemnable, to be honest.

Granted, it's an awful, awful proposal, and given its drafter's origin I hope it never reaches quorum, but the discussion after it raises some very interesting points.

Oh look. The ex-UNAF guy now decides to intervene.

Correct.

It's never been Antifa's official policy to target Capitalist regions, that right is reserved by The Red Fleet and any others who have similarly aligned goals. The moniker "Antifa" has been used by the delegate heading the mission, that isn't to say specifically that it's endorsed by Antifa, or that Antifa's policy is to attack Capitalist regions.

So every time anyone conducts an antifascist operation, then it's OK to use the ANTIFA name, because it's antifascism. I look forward to using it in future.

Also, why is ANTIFA attacking a region with which it had embassies?

Nonetheless, The Red Fleet is a member of Antifa and we felt that this raid constituted close enough to an "Antifascist" operation.

Because casual capitalist regions are just the same as fascist regions.

It interests me that you're well aware of the internal workings of "Antifa" and yet misrepresent the facts so much.

Oh God, the irony.

I've been warned about you.

Nice to see the Thought Police got you too.

I've also heard you promoted the ideal of attacking regions that were "Stalinist" or "Maoist", how very Antifascist of you. Hypocrite!

Fascism is not necessarily right-wing, nor does it always call itself fascism.

Because they aren't.

AntiFa are just raiders who will fit their target selection into their ideology later. There's no doubt that many members of AntiFa actually value the fight against fascism etc, but in it's current form, AntiFa is just a raider organisation.

As for this statement. It's absurd. Clearly stated on the Antifa WFE is it's principles.

*looks for the phrase "Happily griefing non-fascist regions since 2011" on the ANTIFA WFE*

*doesn't find it*

The Red Fleet has made no bones about its Socialist/Communist ideals, and therefore the gunning against Capitalist regions should come not only as no surprise, but if anything the converse, it should be expected.

What is surprising is seeing the word ANTIFA sprayed across a non-fascist region on the basis of a somewhat divisive analysis of capital's progression.

It's even stated by our Admiral in this thread not more than two posts above your very own benign comments:

The Red Fleet , broadly speaking, subscribes to a Communist philosophy

As this ideology is diametrically opposed to capitalism it should come as no surprise that we consider capitalist regions as legitimate targets...

If you would care to check our history you will find that we regard your constructs of "raiding" "defending" and "griefing" as abstracts that are obsolete and redundant.

Calling a construct redundant does not make it so simply because the Admiral said so.

You (Cromarty) have provided no semblance of justification or evidence to substantiate your claims, you've also conventionally ignored or forgotten the fact that The Red Fleet has engaged in a multitude of defence missions, many of regions that are "non-aligned" so to speak (not directly allied with regions who make up The Red Fleet) if we're "just a raider organisation", then why do we defend?

Why is the Red Fleet, if it's so defensive, engaged in destroying a small capitalist region when it could, for example, be passwording Marxism?

Clearly defenders cannot grasp or choose to misappropriate the reality of the situation for their own ends, to paint "Antifa" and all of it's affiliates as a hard-line raiding group that deserves no distinction from the likes of the Black Hawks/Riders.

That's what you're becoming. One of us, one of us, with a thin veneer of antifascism to justify what you're doing.

The rhetoric being thrown around here is amusing, common tropes are used without clarification or understanding and generally the goals and interests are skewed and misrepresented. The draft was proposed by a member of well known Nazi-raider region and the other largest has representatives (in all sorts of disguises admittedly) commenting as well.

And you think we don't know that?

The rest of you are either fascist collaborators/appeasers/protectors or a selection of a few misguided and jaded individuals who have taken some comment or manoeuvre here or there as a personal slight.

Because that's not a presumptive judgement of individual tendencies or anything.

The lack of interest in this thread probably proves that you're unable to actually get such a condemnation to pass.

That's because it's a terrible proposal written by a Nazi.

The new precedent set by notable forces arrayed against Nazi Europe probably spells the general sympathy with our cause, even if there are few as militant as The Red Fleet itself.

I have sympathy with your cause, I just object to the way it is being fought these days, this being a prime example. That, and the fact that other ANTIFA forces are currently engaged in passwording a fascist region whose sole remaining resident was one of my leftover puppets, now withdrawn.

All in all, I doubt if the Fleet got a condemnation it'd affect it in any negative way, and personally I'd quite like a condemnation badge (if ones going so easily), so guys have at thee!
"Fighting fascism is a social duty, not an antisocial crime."

Capitalist regions, however much I object to them, =/= fascist regions. That's why they have "capitalist" tags, and not "fascist" tags.

[The Zeonic States]

Raiding is bad m'kay

[Norsklow]

Question to Of the Free Socialist Territories:

Is targeting a Fascist region for a hostile take-over compatible with the mission of the Security Council? It seems to us that the motivation behind raiderism is completely irrelevant from the SC point of view.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

Question to Of the Free Socialist Territories:

Is targeting a Fascist region for a hostile take-over compatible with the mission of the Security Council? It seems to us that the motivation behind raiderism is completely irrelevant from the SC point of view.

As someone who admittedly doesn't actually place much value in the SC, I'd have to say that in most cases it is compatible, if you view fascist regions, normally insular and/or aggressive, as being against interregional "goodwill." Granted, ANTIFA are by the very same measure against "goodwill", so it's all very subjective.

[Norsklow]

Question to Of the Free Socialist Territories:

Is targeting a Fascist region for a hostile take-over compatible with the mission of the Security Council? It seems to us that the motivation behind raiderism is completely irrelevant from the SC point of view.

As someone who admittedly doesn't actually place much value in the SC, I'd have to say that in most cases it is compatible, if you view fascist regions, normally insular and/or aggressive, as being against interregional "goodwill." Granted, ANTIFA are by the very same measure against "goodwill", so it's all very subjective.

Fascist Aggression can be dealt with through Defenderist measures. Insularity.. we do not see why that should be a problem. We do not think it is subjective, our position is that that ANTIFA itself should be condemned.

Nonetheless, we thank you for a frank and substantial answer that we can live with.

Was signed: Jarl Thorfinn Bloodbeard.

[Andropoland]

Eh. I really couldn't care either way. IMO, they deserve a commendation. But I'm sure they'd be fine with a condemnation anyways.

As That One Communist Guy said on like the third post, most of the stuff in the resolution is either completely false or just the author's personal beliefs. That's mostly the reason why I will oppose this resolution, if it ever comes to vote.

And honestly, I think the purpose of this article would better be put to use in a condemnation against The Internationale or UNAF, not Antifa itself.

[Defendingg]

Oh look. The ex-UNAF guy now decides to intervene. It's never been Antifa's official policy to target Capitalist regions, that right is reserved by The Red Fleet and any others who have similarly aligned goals. The monica "Antifa" has been used by the delegate heading the mission, that isn't to say specifically that it's endorsed by Antifa, or that Antifa's policy is to attack Capitalist regions. Nonetheless, The Red Fleet is a member of Antifa and we felt that this raid constituted close enough to an "Antifascist" operation.

please do tell how you came to this hilarious position.

And I did note how you avoided answering how the regions capitalist and IMF were Nazi/fascist regions.

Eh. I really couldn't care either way. IMO, they deserve a commendation. But I'm sure they'd be fine with a condemnation anyways.

As That One Communist Guy said on like the third post, most of the stuff in the resolution is either completely false or just the author's personal beliefs. That's mostly the reason why I will oppose this resolution, if it ever comes to vote.

And honestly, I think the purpose of this article would better be put to use in a condemnation against The Internationale or UNAF, not Antifa itself.

The current proposal is pretty damn bad, which is why I'm glad this discussion morphed into a much broader conversation on relative merits of a condemnation of Antifa and the Red Fleet, rather than on the draft proposal (which has no chance in hell of passing). Overall, this thread has been pretty productive.

[Norsklow]

Indeed, a productive thread.

'Meanwhile, it would seem to us that AntiFa hosts Nation States which on ideological grounds interfere with the legitimate activities of Regions. It is the mission of the Security Council, and we quote...'
Jarl Thorfin accepts a parchment from a Serf.
'Spreading interregional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.'

'Now, such vandalist actions as perpetrated by AntiFa and its components members cannot be allowed to pass unnoticed by this august Body' - and this august Body would be remiss in carrying out its sacred Duty to preserve Pax, via force if necessary.'

'It follows, then, that it is the sacred Duty of this august Body to condemn these villainous vandals!'

[Potlimitomaha]

We need to CONGRATULATE all the anti-nazi regions.

[Defendingg]

We need to CONGRATULATE all the anti-nazi regions.

big difference in being anti-nazi and accusing regions such as capitalist and IMF of being "nazi".