[SUBMITTED] Condemn Hippostania

by **Ainin** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:40 pm

Suggestions are welcome.

by **Milograd** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:44 pm

Hippostania doesn't deserve even the slightest recognition, to be honest. He hasn't done anything particularly unique or bad either, and a most of it seems unjustified ICly.

Against.

by **Austria-Bohemia-Hungary** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:48 pm

Arguments has been argued to the point of severe nausea... if the SC comes up with another condemnation of this sort, it shall become liable to provide a cure against headache.

AGAINST on technical grounds.

by **Our New World Oceania** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:49 pm

I like it, but just a few minor edits, more or less.

Ainin wrote:APPALED at its outlawing of far-left idiologies, songs and symbols unless they are viewed in the negative.

The wording just doesn't sound right here.

REALIZING that the Hippostanian government actively censors websites and radio stations with views different from theirs.

Again, rewording.

DISTURBED because it detains people without a trial for up to three years and breaks up protests near government buildings by force.

ASTOUNED that it dares take the tax burden off of the rich and give it to the lower class.

I'm not really sure how bad this one is, considering that it could merely be an economic strategy (A strange one, at that).

INTRIGUED that unions in Hippostania must register as joint-stock companies and have to have a board of directors and a CEO.

I'm not sure how relevant this one is.

Hereby Condemns Hippostania.

by **Hippostania** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:55 pm

High Chancellor Lyra's reaction to this proposal:

''What? Again? Silly communists! They still haven't learned their lesson!''

by **Chinese Regions** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:20 pm

Hippostania wrote:High Chancellor Lyra's reaction to this proposal:

''What? Again? Silly communists! They still haven't learned their lesson!''

How about calling non-communist nations communist?

by **Crystal Spires** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:02 pm

"Obviously as an unofficial Co-author, we stand for our principles on behalf what is right and just. We are for the passing of this resolution, as we believe it stands against the interests of nations everywhere to have a nation such who is in the World Assembly when they do not hold to World Assembly Resolutions.

The Nation of Hippostania has broken WA Resolution #4 with their child soldiers.
The Nation of Hippostania has broken WA Resolution #27 Freedom of Assembly by making being part of a political party and organization that advocates a redistribution of wealth which includes voluntary organizations illegal and punishable by prison time and fines
The Nation of Hippostania has broken WA Resolution #30 Freedom of Expression by making wearing communist symbols including the red star, hammer and sickle, red flag and several other symbols illegal, making performing of songs or music that has been labelled pro-communist illegal, making possession and distribution of literature, movies, TV shows and video games that portray communist ideologies, or any other communist nation in a positive light illegal punishable by prison time and fines.
The Nation of Hippostania has broken Resolution #155 Freedom of the Press by making possession and distribution of literature, movies, TV shows and video games that portray communist ideologies, or any other communist nation in a positive light illegal and punishable by fines and prison time.
The nation of Hippostania violated WA resolution #174 the Right to Petition in a most egregious manner with the brutal extrajudicial execution of the protesters in the Hackney Massacre.

To ignore all the violations and still allow them voting power in the World Assembly makes a mockery of this organization. Furthermore, their continued targeting of the poor is a most horrific act, and then to make matters worse, the nation continues to devolve and the situation worsens as direct sanction seems to do little to stop their actions. Swift Condemnation can instead make the situation better. When I had condemned Hippostania in the past it was merely 3 open violations, and in the short time that has passed, their violations have almost doubled. How far will this continue to go? How long will the name of the World Assembly be smeared with the practices of state terrorists? I say Condemnation is the least we should do. The bottom line, and the minimum of the actions we should take." High Chancellor Maven Auryn said with a frown.

About me · by **Luziyca** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:08 am

Sequoia immediately stood up and shouted, "YOU," pointing to the ambassadors of Ainin and Crystal Spires. "That is right, I am looking at vous. The Pony Republic of Hippostania did not and NEVER violated all of these resolutions, which you have absolutely ZERO evidence to back you up. It is amongst the nations which are democratic, like Longfort, Luziyca and Hippostania. True liberty made Hippostania prosper, thus, it is democratic."

With a cough, she finished, "Your welcome."

by **Ainin** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:08 pm

Evidence of:
The Hackney Massacre: http://www.nswiki.net/index.php?title=Hackney_Massacre
Child Soldiers: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=166472&hilit=hippostania+two+party
Brutalizing the press: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=144058&hilit=diana+melo
"Is that enough? Oh, and, the delegate from Hippostania, we are not communists, our government is a coalition of social democrats and liberals.

by **Soviet Canuckistan** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:40 pm

Simone and Sergei were sitting at their desk patiently, waiting for some new drafts to be debated. Their conversation had just turned to Soviet Canuckistani politics when this draft came across the floor. Upon hearing the name Hippostania, Simone spat out her ice water and Sergei his vodka and they began to listen to the debate attentively. When everyone finished speaking, Simone spoke:

"Soviet Canuckistan, though not a supporter of Hippostania is AGAINST this resolution. Maven Auryn,you have raised points but these are false as the Resolutions you quote are being mis-intepreted by you :
-This isn't in contradiction of GAR #4 as the children are being trained which isn't banned and are not in armed conflict which is banned.

-This is not is violation of GAR #27 as the redistribution of wealth could harm people and thus illegalization of these organization that promote this is exempt as stated in "3.) These things having been ordained, states that Freedom of Assembly cannot be extended towards any call for: violence, rioting, and/or actions that would cause harm to innocent people. "

-Also, not a violation of GAR #30 as these symbols could promote lawlessness and disorder and violence against the Hippostanian government as stated in "Allows member states to set reasonable restrictions on expression in order to prevent... incitements to widespread lawlessness and disorder, or violence against any individual, group or organization"
-Not a violation to GAR #155 as it is exempt under the following as these forms of media could present a danger to national security in the nation as stated in:"Reports from news media organisations operating within the nation's borders can only be censored if they pose a genuine threat to the security of the nation."

-Also, protesting is not petitioning as petitioning is defined as " a written observation, suggestion, request, criticism or complaint that relates to an issue of public or private interest;" and I believe protesting is not written.

Now back to the resolution, some points made here aren't very good as:
-One of your points is that the nation is a dictatorships, lots of WA nations are dictatorships so I see no big deal.
-Their government is trying to prevent civil unrest and violence in the populace, how is that illegal?
-How is it a problem if unions are run like companies. how has this had a negative impact?
-How is the tax burden thing a problem?
Ainin we ask that you answer these points and thank you for your time."

Simone went back to her discussion with Sergei, though listening for more mentions of the draft.

by **The Republic of Lanos** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:24 pm

The Lanosians approve this proposal because the national socialist government of Hippostania has gone too far with its bullshit.

OOC: Nothing against the player. Only against the nation.

Also, you forgot to mention the prohibition.

Posts · by **Yohannes** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:02 am

There are tons of other roleplayers/roleplaying-centric or specialised nations out there that more deserve a condemnation. Although I am not a member of the World Assembly myself, I would like to speak my opinion as a player which concentrate heavily upon roleplaying in NationStates that this recognition/condemnation badge is not needed.

by **Cromarty** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:08 am

Yohannes wrote:There are tons of other roleplayers/roleplaying-centric or specialised nations out there that more deserve a condemnation. Although I am not a member of the World Assembly myself, I would like to speak my opinion as a player which concentrate heavily upon roleplaying in NationStates that this recognition/condemnation badge is not needed.

This.

by **Chinese Regions** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:55 pm

support

by **Kulaloe** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:07 pm

INTRIGUED that unions in Hippostania must register as joint-stock companies and have to have a board of directors and a CEO.

Um... I'm assuming that you are using the logic that such a policy would somehow stop a union from functioning like a union. The truth is that it won't. If the union's stockholders and/or board of directors still want to function like a traditional union, it will still function like a traditional union.
FOR if this clause is omitted or rewritten for better clarity of what is so bad about this.

by **The Republic of Lanos** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:13 pm

Hippostania wrote:High Chancellor Lyra's reaction to this proposal:

''What? Again? Silly communists! They still haven't learned their lesson!''

Candle Jack uttered out loud Dirty national socialists... before correcting himself.

If Hackney occurred before Hippostania joined the WA, then I feel that point is moot. However, it should still be considered as a reason why no one takes Hippostania as the so-called "civil rights paradise" they term themselves against the "evil communist menace" that conveniently threatens them and the excuse used for practically all the shit that goes down over there. Lanos condemns these and all the actions they conduct and declare Hippostania to be ruled by a national socialist regime cloaked in the guise of ponyism. As far as we know, they do not practice ponyism. they practice national socialism.

And as for their prohibition...can that be mentioned in this proposal?

by **Ainin** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:13 pm

The Republic of Lanos wrote:Candle Jack uttered out loud Dirty national socialists... before correcting himself.

If Hackney occurred before Hippostania joined the WA, then I feel that point is moot. However, it should still be considered as a reason why no one takes Hippostania as the so-called "civil rights paradise" they term themselves against the "evil communist menace" that conveniently threatens them and the excuse used for practically all the shit that goes down over there. Lanos condemns these and all the actions they conduct and declare Hippostania to be ruled by a national socialist regime cloaked in the guise of ponyism. As far as we know, they do not practice ponyism. they practice national socialism.

And as for their prohibition...can that be mentioned in this proposal?

"We've removed the labour unions and Hackney justifications, and about prohibition. I guess it's not so bad when you think of it... I'll think of it."

by **ArghNeedAName** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:47 pm

We opposed the previous resolution against Hippostania because at the time their infringements on democracy were limited to banning communism. Now, the situation is much, much worse. I hope I can help persuade opponents of the previous resolution to support the new one.

"ACKNOWLEDGING that many political parties have been outlawed by strict and complicated registration requirements and the voting system has been engineered to guarentee victory to the regime in elections."

About me · by **Luziyca** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:00 pm

"We are still, quite frankly opposed," said Sequoia. "This whole proposal is communist, it is made by commies, and quite frankly; they are just horrid, a waste of freedom. They are the bastion of democracy, liberty; and freedom, therefore, Hippostania should be COMMENDED for liberating its people from the tyranny that is communism, and indeed, other nations!"

by **The Republic of Lanos** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:14 pm

Luziyca wrote:"We are still, quite frankly opposed," said Sequoia. "This whole proposal is communist, it is made by commies, and quite frankly; they are just horrid, a waste of freedom. They are the bastion of democracy, liberty; and freedom, therefore, Hippostania should be COMMENDED for liberating its people from the tyranny that is communism, and indeed, other nations!"

For one thing, trying to commend Hippostania for all the alleged good things they've done would get us laughed out of the Security Council. With that established, let us point to some happenings:

1. The Coalition of Ponyist States once voted to condemn Hippostania for its communism ban. Sure there may be a few communist nations in the CoPS (Crystal Spires at least) but a hell of a lot of non-communist nations voted for it as well. It passed. There's times when we condemn out own regardless of the value a member may have.
2. As stated before, the proposal author is not communist. Calling people that disagree with your national socialist views communists won't get you any farther than trying to declare war on all the commies in your country and imprisoning them in camps only to find they all left your persecution.
3. Radio Free Hippostania, the pirate radio organization broadcasting to Hippostania, may have some communists in it but there's non-communists too.
4. They threatened to do things to other countries. Crystal Spires had its Chancellor threatened personally by Lyra. There's others but I'm not arsed to attempt to gather evidence at this time.
5. If it looks like a duck...I can go on with this analogy but it gets the same effect.

Oh and Sergei, banning communist symbols in Hippostania solely because you declared communists criminals isn't going to really fly at all. It's persecution of an ideology and it's a disgrace.

OOC: Now if Hippo didn't retcon the "red hair causes COMMUNISM!!!1!"...

by **Soviet Canuckistan** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:40 pm

The Republic of Lanos wrote:
Luziyca wrote:"We are still, quite frankly opposed," said Sequoia. "This whole proposal is communist, it is made by commies, and quite frankly; they are just horrid, a waste of freedom. They are the bastion of democracy, liberty; and freedom, therefore, Hippostania should be COMMENDED for liberating its people from the tyranny that is communism, and indeed, other nations!"

For one thing, trying to commend Hippostania for all the alleged good things they've done would get us laughed out of the Security Council. With that established, let us point to some happenings:

1. The Coalition of Ponyist States once voted to condemn Hippostania for its communism ban. Sure there may be a few communist nations in the CoPS (Crystal Spires at least) but a hell of a lot of non-communist nations voted for it as well. It passed. There's times when we condemn out own regardless of the value a member may have.
2. As stated before, the proposal author is not communist. Calling people that disagree with your national socialist views communists won't get you any farther than trying to declare war on all the commies in your country and imprisoning them in camps only to find they all left your persecution.
3. Radio Free Hippostania, the pirate radio organization broadcasting to Hippostania, may have some communists in it but there's non-communists too.
4. They threatened to do things to other countries. Crystal Spires had its Chancellor threatened personally by Lyra. There's others but I'm not arsed to attempt to gather evidence at this time.
5. If it looks like a duck...I can go on with this analogy but it gets the same effect.

Oh and Sergei, banning communist symbols in Hippostania solely because you declared communists criminals isn't going to really fly at all. It's persecution of an ideology and it's a disgrace.

OOC: Now if Hippo didn't retcon the "red hair causes COMMUNISM!!!1!"...

OOC: Read closer, it was Simone, I have a vice-deeagte and delegate, Sergei's usually too drunk

by **Merfurian** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:23 am

Honourable Delegate;

Other members may make their standards of proof slightly lower or higher than ours, but, for us to believe the accusations which are levelled in a Condemnation, we must be convinced beyond a resonable doubt regarding ALL of the accusations. At the moment, we are not fully convinced.
We also require proof of the act itself (hereinafter the actus reus) AND one of the following:
Intention, knowledge, recklessness or omission (where he did not do something) (hereinafter referred to as mens rea).
We will now examine each of the accusations, based on the evidence provided to us. Any reference to "partially proven", means that we believe part of the evidence, or that we believe - on the balance of probabilities - that such acts happened. This does not mean that the actus requirement is fulfilled:

1. Hippostantia became a two-party state, with both parties being similar
Actus reus: PARTIALLY PROVEN
mens rea: INTENT PARTIALLY PROVEN
Reasons: There is evidence that the two-party system was installed, but there is no proof that the two parties are similar and that Hippostantia is therefore nothing more than a two-party dictatorship
2. Forcing children to use weapons
Actus reus: PROVEN BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT
mens rea: INTENTION AND KNOWLEDGE PROVEN BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT
Reasons: The act is proven through the declaration that a "Patriotic Education Law" was signed by the Chancellor. Therein, it sets out that children are to learn to use many diverse types of weapon. He was further aware of criticism, and the effects of this legislation, but decided to ignore the critics. This accusation has been fully proven.
3. Massacre of Protesters
Actus reus: PROVEN BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT
mens rea: NOT PROVEN
Reasons: It is evident that the acts took place over a period of time, but we are unsure as to whether the acts were ordered, or whether they were spontaneous.
4. spies on people and uses concentration camps
Actus: NOT PROVEN
Mens rea: INTENTION PARTIALLY PROVEN BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT
Reason: The spying is not evident, other than an orchestrated arrest, but the use of concentration camps is not proven in the evidence.
4. Protests near government buildings, tax burder on poor, 3 year detention, unions
Actus: PARTIALLY PROVEN
mens: INTENT PARTIALLY PROVEN
Reasons: There is no evidence provided regarding the actual acts mentioned, other than the passage of certain legislation leading to these purported acts. There is no evidence of a tax burden on the poor, nor regarding "3 year detention" or on unions.
5. Censors websites
Actus: PROVEN BEYOND A RESONABLE DOUBT
Mens rea: INTENT PROVEN BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT
Reasons: We see the passage of the Internet Censorship Act has instigated censorship of the internet. There is evidence of the intent to censor the internet through the passage of this act. This crime has been fully proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
6. Censors the radio
Actus: FULLY PROVEN BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT
Mens rea: ALL ELEMENTS FULLY PROVEN BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT
Reason: Evidence proves that there is an investigation into the mentioned radio station, and therefore it is evident that this radio is banned. Effective censorship is not shown, but is not required in our opinion. Merely showing that censorship exists (as is shown in the evidence) is adecuate proof. This crime is proven beyond all reasonable doubt
7. Supports terrorism
Actus: PROVEN BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT
Mens rea: PROVEN BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT
Reasons: According to the evidence, there is sufficient proof from the first item of evidence that the Hippostatian Government has the requisite mens rea for this allegation. This is because they did not condemn the terrorist act - they did not make any comment, but inference can be drawn that Hippostatia supports such actions, but does not wish to lose its credibility through publicly saying so. The second item of evidence proves the requisite actus through the fact that Hippostatia has issued a publicity statement "supporting the perpetrator of this righteous act". We infer that this means a terrorist act.

We therefore conclude that, as elements 3 and 4 have NOT been fully proven, we cannot support legislation which accuses Hippostania of those acts. Kindly provide other evidence, or remove those allegations from this proposal.

Sincerely;

Klause Uliyan
etc

by **ArghNeedAName** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:30 am

ArghNeedAName's analysis:

RECOGNIZING that Hippostania is a dictatorship that represses severely on the rights of its people.

Correct

ACKNOWLEDGING that it has effectively turned into a two-party state, by limiting other parties' chances to run in elections.

FURTHER ACKNOWLEDGING that the two parties are exactly the same with different names, both controlled by dictator Lyra.

The fact it's a two party state isn't in itself a problem - after all, so is the United States of America. It is the fact that the government has implemented complicated and strict registeration to outlaw many political parties and prevent many political movements from being represented in Parliament. This has largely shut out semi-opposition parties such as the Bourgeois Party, which was known to defend freedom of speech and oppose military spending. The party didn't just get shut out of Parliament either - it was disbanded. Another example is the United Green Party, a politically moderate and environmentalist party was also shut out.

NOTING that it has violated GA Resolution #4 by forcing children to learn to use rifles, AA Guns and tanks and then brainwashing them.

ArghNeedAName does not believe this constitutes a breach of GA Resolution #4 because the children are not being involved in conflict, only being taught how to use them. ArghNeedAName also allows under 16s to participate in military training and this is not considered child labour, although admittedly this is voluntary whereas Hippostania has so far stated that it is compulsory and there has been no mention of an opt-out procedure for those who don't want to take part. However, we'd rather stick to what's provable.

KNOWING that Hippostania spies on its people and send dissendents to concentration camps.

There is clear evidence that the government does send dissidents to such camps, which we would rather refer to as "prison camps", sometimes referred to as "Government Operated Theme Park".

ANGERED at its outlawing of leftist idiologies, songs and symbols unless they are viewed in the negative light.

Our problems here are to do with the phrasing. "Idealogies" has been mispelt. Part of this does not make sense. It says "outlawing of leftist idealogies...unless they are viewed in the negative light". It should also say "in a negative light". A suggested improvement is "ANGERED at its outlawing of all left wing idealogies under the guise of protection the country from left wing extremism, and outlawing of left wing symbolism unless portrayed in a negative light."

Some evidence would be needed that apparent ban on communism extends to democratic socialist and social democratic idealogies. The country has restrictions that you can't run for Parliament if you support "redistribution of wealth" (Source: Hippostanian constitution), which would effectively outlaw even the UK Conservative and US Democratic Party, who both support progressive tax rates. Hell, even the Republicans wouldn't agree to Lyra's regressive tax policies.

DISGUSTED that it encouraged terrorist attacks on the Iglesian Archipelago and Archnar.

UNSATISFIED that the Hippostanian government actively censors websites and radio stations with views different from theirs.

Correct.

DISTURBED because it detains people without a trial for up to three years and breaks up protests near government buildings by force.

There is clear evidence of restrictions on freedom of assembly for opposition groups and causes. However, there is so far no record of an actual incident of a protest being broken up by force (except the Hackney Massacre, and that was over 40 years ago). The more recent laws ban demonstrations within half a kilometre of government buildings, so it would be appropriate condemn the fact that "demonstrations are forbidden from being held in many key locations." But this is more minor than the fact that opposition protests are suppressed and can be legally broken with brutal force.

ASTOUNED that it dares take the tax burden off of the rich and give it to the lower class.

ArghNeedAName considers this to be an economic issue rather than a human rights issue. It is entirely their own fault that Hippostania is suffering declining consumer spending and shrinking paychecks for the majority of the population due to the regressive tax code. If it is really necessary to include a criticism of Hippostania's , you could condemn the country for "severe neglect" of the poor.

JUSTIFYING this condemnation with all the above reasons.

APPALED that it threatened a humanitarian NGO because it has "red" in its name and because it thinks it is a threat to Hippostanian private insurance.

Correct, but needs evidence attached.

Hereby Condemns Hippostania.

We support the resolution in principle but oppose it on technical grounds at the moment. Our key areas that need to be addressed are 1) the restrictions on political parties
2) the military training of schoolchildren
3) the criticism of the tax code
Remember, we don't need to mention every occassion when Hippostania has made a threat boasting about the latest incident of political repression!

by **Chinese Regions** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:36 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:Arguments has been argued to the point of severe nausea... if the SC comes up with another condemnation of this sort, it shall become liable to provide a cure against headache.

AGAINST on technical grounds.

OOC: Does this disapproval count, they are not a WA member.

by **The Republic of Lanos** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:46 pm

Chinese Regions wrote:
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:Arguments has been argued to the point of severe nausea... if the SC comes up with another condemnation of this sort, it shall become liable to provide a cure against headache.

AGAINST on technical grounds.

OOC: Does this disapproval count, they are not a WA member.

OOC: They're allowed to post here and give opinions. Non-WA members are allowed to do so. I'm one of those non-WA nations that pop in and give opinions on things like this.

[SUBMITTED] Condemn Hippostania

[SUBMITTED] Condemn Hippostania

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