[DELAYED] Repeal Commend 10000 Islands

[Guy II]

Acknowledging that 10000 Islands once stood as a pinnacle of the defensive efforts of the world and that their forces there have aided many a wrongly-invaded region,

Still does, as seen in their regular defences. TITO might be the best and most efficient Defending group out there.

Concerned by the overzealous military policies of 10000 Islands, in which nations that do not share their views were regarded as "bullies" or "menaces", as well as their questionable operations as of late, which has resulted in tyranny under the guise of justice,

So justifiying Raiding, going against previous Security Council precedents.

Realizing, however, lately, 10000 Islands and the defender organization TITO, based out of 10000 Islands, has turned rogue in multiple cases in different regions, resulting in the tragic displacement of native nations and unwanted nations being forcibly placed impositions of power,

Mistakes happen. If those were mistakes at all.

Pointing Out that TITO has violated the wishes of natives and long-standing regional residents, including banning and ejecting nations, as well as acting in a manner that has resulted in the Condemnation of regions such as The Black Hawks, NAZI EUROPE, and the Greater German Reich,

Please elaborate?

Noting the power-grabbing manner in which TITO executed a raid-style invasion of the region Osiris - the demographics and influence of which displaying the potential to become an exorbitant entity, soon after it was founded - in which the TITO operative Sichuan Pepper not only took control of the region but proceeded to ban and eject multiple nations displaying no hostility or malevolence toward the region or populous thereof,

Those nations have a history of harming regions, and thus while I do not support those bans... They were justifiable. Furthermore, how is the manner TITO grabbed Osiris any different than the way Unibot grabbed Balder?

Further Noting that the region Anarchy was invaded and forced into a militant coup by TITO forces in which said forces claimed to be "re-instating the rightful Delegate," barring that the natives of the region had said that the TITO forces were, indeed, not restoring any rightful Delegate but endorsing their own candidate in another shockingly raider-esque tactic, and that the region Islam was invaded by the same TITO operative who performed suppression of native conversation and free will,

Anarchy was authorised by the current seating Delegate. Islam was a regular defence, talk by Raiders was hidden.

Co-Authored by Connopolis

[New Rogernomics]

1) Kain the Dragoon was invited by the Sole WA nation in the region, which prior to the TITO invasion/entry/incident, was one of 8 natives in the region, a native meaning a member of a region that existed after an update aka why there was a world census report. To undermine the premise that a world census report carries weight, is to suggest that no region can justify the world census report as evidence for their existence (or right to existence), which I am sorry to say not only is ludicrous but totally uncalled for.

(Emphasis added.)

That has to be one of the worst definitions of "native" that I've ever heard. One of the traditional definitions from the pre-influence days involved "permanent or long-term residents". I fail to see how one can establish nativity by moving into a game-created region a few hours earlier than others.

As I said in another thread, I'd prefer to consider all current residents of Osiris to be "inhabitants", not "natives" or "invaders", especially when there's no real regional government established. It's really way too early to figure out who actually wants to stay in those regions long-term and who's not.

Personally I want to wait a bit before taking any C&C action regarding events in Osiris. Let's see how things end up looking in a week or two, shall we?

Considering I am on bad personal terms with you, I am not surprised you are complaining over my definitions, but I agree with the concept that its hard to establish the definition of what is a 'native', thus why my arguments have been centered around the principle of self-determination, not the fact they held it for a few hours, for the sake of argument they could have been there for a few milliseconds, or ten years, and been declared the native residents.

Though in RL terms, I would ask you to picture a nation which has recently declared its independence, it has a new flag (like Kain gave it one), it had a new assembly/senate/congress building (in NS terms a forum would meet that criteria, which Kain did set up), it had a candidate for the UN (in NS terms the WA, which was decided to be Kain), then another nation invades/liberates/intervenes to stop its new status/undermine its independence because it disagrees with the government being formed, and one of the leading politicians in the nation.

[Goobergunchia]

Considering I am on bad personal terms with you...

I don't think I know you....

I'm also really not comfortable asserting that the first people to spot a game-created region should automatically be allowed to lay claim to it. There's a major difference between a user-created region (where its creators are obviously natives) and a game-created region, which has no inherent creator (except for the Game Administrator, of course). I think a better RL analogy is to a newly discovered, empty piece of land which competing factions discover at nearly the same time. Is our only concern to determine whoever got there first, if ever so slightly, and award them the territory?

(And merely establishing a forum is really really easy. While it's evidence that one wants to establish long-term governance of a region, it's hardly conclusive.)

[New Rogernomics]

Considering I am on bad personal terms with you...

I don't think I know you....

I'm also really not comfortable asserting that the first people to spot a game-created region should automatically be allowed to lay claim to it. There's a major difference between a user-created region (where its creators are obviously natives) and a game-created region, which has no inherent creator (except for the Game Administrator, of course). I think a better RL analogy is to a newly discovered, empty piece of land which competing factions discover at nearly the same time. Is our only concern to determine whoever got there first, if ever so slightly, and award them the territory?

(And merely establishing a forum is really really easy. While it's evidence that one wants to establish long-term governance of a region, it's hardly conclusive.)

I was confusing you with Niv then, my bad, someone/something mentioned that connection to me once, my bad.

Perhaps, but then again it would have been preferable that TITO raised its objections with Kain first, had it done so then Kain could have left (since his goal was to improve the region, not ruin it for its residents), allowing the free development of the region. If Kain didn't then TITO would have had full rights to liberate the region, but that was unfortunately not the case. But in the end its all said and done, there will be an election in Osiris, though not a perfectly fair one (aka due to the invader/defender scrambling to be there), and there will be a new delegate of the region.

[Tim-Opolis]

Full Support.

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

Acknowledging that 10000 Islands once stood as a pinnacle of the defensive efforts of the world and that their forces there have aided many a wrongly-invaded region,

Still does, as seen in their regular defences. TITO might be the best and most efficient Defending group out there.

Concerned by the overzealous military policies of 10000 Islands, in which nations that do not share their views were regarded as "bullies" or "menaces", as well as their questionable operations as of late, which has resulted in tyranny under the guise of justice,

So justifiying Raiding, going against previous Security Council precedents.

Realizing, however, lately, 10000 Islands and the defender organization TITO, based out of 10000 Islands, has turned rogue in multiple cases in different regions, resulting in the tragic displacement of native nations and unwanted nations being forcibly placed impositions of power,

Mistakes happen. If those were mistakes at all.

Pointing Out that TITO has violated the wishes of natives and long-standing regional residents, including banning and ejecting nations, as well as acting in a manner that has resulted in the Condemnation of regions such as The Black Hawks, NAZI EUROPE, and the Greater German Reich,

Please elaborate?

Noting the power-grabbing manner in which TITO executed a raid-style invasion of the region Osiris - the demographics and influence of which displaying the potential to become an exorbitant entity, soon after it was founded - in which the TITO operative Sichuan Pepper not only took control of the region but proceeded to ban and eject multiple nations displaying no hostility or malevolence toward the region or populous thereof,

Those nations have a history of harming regions, and thus while I do not support those bans... They were justifiable. Furthermore, how is the manner TITO grabbed Osiris any different than the way Unibot grabbed Balder?

Further Noting that the region Anarchy was invaded and forced into a militant coup by TITO forces in which said forces claimed to be "re-instating the rightful Delegate," barring that the natives of the region had said that the TITO forces were, indeed, not restoring any rightful Delegate but endorsing their own candidate in another shockingly raider-esque tactic, and that the region Islam was invaded by the same TITO operative who performed suppression of native conversation and free will,

Anarchy was authorised by the current seating Delegate. Islam was a regular defence, talk by Raiders was hidden.

Co-Authored by Connopolis

Here's a point by point answering:

• Once being the operative here, because by their actions shown in the past few weeks have made them seem like less of raiders, ergo, once a pinnacle
• Not seeing what your point is on the second quote
• Mistakes imply they were accidental
• How should I elaborate on "banning and ejecting nations, as well as acting in a manner that has resulted in the Condemnation of regions such as The Black Hawks, NAZI EUROPE, and the Greater German Reich?"
• The fact that a new Delegate is banning nations who have just a much right to be there and have, indeed, been sanctioned by the earliest arrivals (Revert in this case) makes the ejections and bannings ridiculous. The major difference I see is that Unibot is setting up a government and leaving. Grub and TITO are choosing for the residents of Osiris, while refusing to leave at the will of the residents.
• "Anarchy was authorised by the current seating Delegate. Islam was a regular defence, talk by Raiders was hidden." Let's take this ludicrous statement piece by piece. "Anarchy was authorised by the current seating Delegate"-This could be said of any raid. By any raider organization. Ever. "Islam was a regular defence, talk by Raiders was hidden" Oh, so you mean hiding anti-Islamic, pro-American statements? So basically suppressing free speech at will?

[Evil Wolf]

For some reason the author of this repeal has also chosen to compare 10000 Islands with a bunch of Nazi themed invader regions and vandalistic invaders that have been previously condemned. Really? It’s especially an odd thing to include in a repeal that should only appeal to invaders, when so many invader groups have worked closely with members of Nazi themed invaders regions in past invasions.

I call Godwin's Law.

Also, I have never worked with Nazi's on any raid before nor have I known any of my fellow raiders to do so. I have, however, worked with defenders, including ADN, once or twice to raid Nazi regions. Perhaps you're getting it confuse in your old age?

[Guy II]

How should I elaborate on "banning and ejecting nations, as well as acting in a manner that has resulted in the Condemnation of regions such as The Black Hawks, NAZI EUROPE, and the Greater German Reich?"

Where, what, when. Or it never happened.

The fact that a new Delegate is banning nations who have just a much right to be there and have, indeed, been sanctioned by the earliest arrivals (Revert in this case) makes the ejections and bannings ridiculous.

TITO believed they were defending the region from a nation which would cause harm to it. While they might not have done the right thing, their actions certainly don't justify this.

The major difference I see is that Unibot is setting up a government and leaving. Grub and TITO are choosing for the residents of Osiris, while refusing to leave at the will of the residents.

Ah... So it's okay to force a government down a new sinker's throat and hold it by power... But not okay to set up elections and hold the region by power? Apart from their unwillingness otherwise to help Osiris, TITO's forces are not any less benevolent than the UDL's in Balder.

"Anarchy was authorised by the current seating Delegate"-This could be said of any raid. By any raider organization. Ever.

As far as I know, TITO's operation in Anarchy was explicitly authorised by the native Delegate. What's wrong with that?

"Islam was a regular defence, talk by Raiders was hidden" Oh, so you mean hiding anti-Islamic, pro-American statements? So basically suppressing free speech at will?

No... This has got nothing to do with RL ideology. You may or may not know this, but Grub and almost all other 10KI old-timers are right-wing Americans.

TITO cleaned the RMB of raider messages, which is often done when a region is defended. All they did is clear the RMB of undesirable raider-spam. I wouldn't want my RMB to be littered with messages from a raiding force which has just raided me.

[Fratt Armed Forces]

"Anarchy was authorised by the current seating Delegate. Islam was a regular defence, talk by Raiders was hidden." Let's take this ludicrous statement piece by piece. "Anarchy was authorised by the current seating Delegate"-This could be said of any raid. By any raider organization. Ever.

The current seating Delegate is the same who held the seat before TITO deployed.
Population 11+ billion. Influence: Eminence Grise (which is quite rare in a region of that size). Active. Been a resident of the region, with WA status for ... longer than lots of players around here.

Find me a single raid who has that kind of Delegate supporting a raid of its own region, please.

"Islam was a regular defence, talk by Raiders was hidden" Oh, so you mean hiding anti-Islamic, pro-American statements? So basically suppressing free speech at will?[/list]

Trolling isn't free speech. TPK were suggesting that Islam, the religion, was to blame for terrorist attacks.
Raiding with racist connotations. Wow.

[Ramesses I]

I completely support this.

[Connopolis]

Where, what, when. Or it never happened.

That's an eloquent way of saying "La La La! I can't hear you!" In all seriousness, that's not how it works. Going into that level of depth is unnecessary.

TITO believed they were defending the region from a nation which would cause harm to it. While they might not have done the right thing, their actions certainly don't justify this.

At least they thought they were helping; who cares if their actions were unjust and uncalled for - they thought they were doing the right thing!

They didn't do the right thing, on multiple occasions, so yes, they do deserve "this".

Ah... So it's okay to force a government down a new sinker's throat and hold it by power... But not okay to set up elections and hold the region by power? Apart from their unwillingness otherwise to help Osiris, TITO's forces are not any less benevolent than the UDL's in Balder.

What the hell? Can we have one civil debate without denouncing the credentials of the UDL in order to defend TITO's actions? This proposal isn't condemning TITO - I concede to the notion that they have done an extraordinary amount of work that has benefitted many natives - but the proposal is repealing their condemnation. We've had a native of Osiris testify against TITO while Balder is yet to make any comments. After browsing through their RMB and seeing this:

Go away Cobras. Unibot is not the enemy here.

Meh, Uni ≥ TITO at least.

I think its suffice to say that the UDL is, in fact, better received than TITO in Balder.

As far as I know, TITO's operation in Anarchy was explicitly authorised by the native Delegate. What's wrong with that?

Maybe by the delegate, but not by the rightful natives:

The Notorious City-RE-Public of YoriZ

So far for The Anarcho-syndicalist Planets of Seeya:
* I never even wanted to join the UN / WA in the first place.
* I finally decided to join the UN / WA when I saw a chance to vote an "anarcho"-capitalist out of the delegacy.
* You know how many resolutions I've voted on since I first joined the WA (or the UN as it was called back then before the threat of lawsuits)? Zero.
* I'm not banning anybody for the simple reason that I believe it violates anarchist principles.
* I think the whole fighting over the delegacy is even more of a sideshow than arguing with "anarcho"-capitalists.

So, dear members of TITO, maybe we can have The Revolutionary Order of Marxist Rebel as WA-delegate? Our seating delegate doesn't care, is a WA-member against his own principles and looks at it all as a big sideshow, including arguing with anarcho-capitalists which he, in his own opinion, doesn't count as anarchists. I think you guys could maybe leave the (r)evolution in Anarchy to its own and move on to a defence that is requiring more manpower?

The Fabulous Chicken Sandwich of Wanjestay

Tito are here for what reason exactly?

You could be libbing tpc instead of raiding, you know.

[Connopolis]

I completely support this.

Sorry to use you as an example, but might I just note to those that think the natives of Osiris are okay with TITO: Ramesses is in favor of this proposal, and is currently a native of Osiris. Could one infer that they aren't content with TITO's occupation?

[Fratt Armed Forces]

Maybe by the delegate, but not by the rightful natives:

First, the delegate is a rightful native too (and, btw, a democratically-elected representative of natives).
Second, Wanjestay, as you probably know, isn't a native of Anarchy, and just moved one of his nations in the region after the TITO deployment to post on the RMB.

I completely support this.

Sorry to use you as an example, but might I just note to those that think the natives of Osiris are okay with TITO: Ramesses is in favor of this proposal, and is currently a native of Osiris. Could one infer that they aren't content with TITO's occupation?

It's a game-created region. It didn't even exist before Wednesday morning.
I believe less than four days is a little too short to argue there are 'natives'. Residents. Inhabitants, etc.
I have a couple of puppets in Osiris who have resided there longer than Ramesses - and I'm not claiming to be a native or anything

The majority of the current residents wants 10KI gone, but that's not enough reason to repeal the Commendation, or argue that TITO raided the region.
Especially when the majority of the current residents joined after them.

[Mahaj WA Seat]

FYI TITO the reason you appear so early on the residency list is that you kicked a bunch of people who were there before you.

[A mean old man]

FYI TITO the reason you appear so early on the residency list is that you kicked a bunch of people who were there before you.

Let's not forget that these people arrived maybe an hour or two before TITO did.

[Guy II]

I'm taking it as if the point on Islam is conceded.

That's an eloquent way of saying "La La La! I can't hear you!" In all seriousness, that's not how it works. Going into that level of depth is unnecessary.

No, not at all. I was never aware it happened.

At least they thought they were helping; who cares if their actions were unjust and uncalled for - they thought they were doing the right thing!

They didn't do the right thing, on multiple occasions, so yes, they do deserve "this".

Are you going to repeal the Commendation of any region/person which ejects people from a founderless region? TITO saw a threat to a new GCR and acted on it. Their actions I do not entirely support as someone staying in Osiris, but it's not wrong to a level which would erase 8 years of hard work.

What the hell? Can we have one civil debate without denouncing the credentials of the UDL in order to defend TITO's actions? This proposal isn't condemning TITO - I concede to the notion that they have done an extraordinary amount of work that has benefitted many natives - but the proposal is repealing their condemnation. We've had a native of Osiris testify against TITO while Balder is yet to make any comments. After browsing through their RMB and seeing this:

A native opposes them, oh no! Well you've got one here. UDL and factions which support them pretty much have become the dominating natives in Balder, whereas TITO has mostly stayed out of the internal affairs in Osiris. If someone is acting imperialitically, it's the UDL.

Maybe by the delegate, but not by the rightful natives:

Wait, the Delegate is not a rightful native?

[Connopolis]

OOC:

I'm taking it as if the point on Islam is conceded.

Islam was before my time of extra-regional activity, so I don't really know, to be honest.

No, not at all. I was never aware it happened.

Fair enough; it could be elaborated on, but the point remains.

Are you going to repeal the Commendation of any region/person which ejects people from a founderless region? TITO saw a threat to a new GCR and acted on it. Their actions I do not entirely support as someone staying in Osiris, but it's not wrong to a level which would erase 8 years of hard work.

Their commendation is based on the fundamental principle of justice and fairness, which at their pinnacle, was TITO's objective. Now, after criticism from those they've defended, as well as their very dubious behavior, I believe it's time their commendation's been retracted, because as of now, they aren't doing anything besides questionable defenses, and refusing to cooperate at all, with any other defender organization.

A native opposes them, oh no! Well you've got one here. UDL and factions which support them pretty much have become the dominating natives in Balder, whereas TITO has mostly stayed out of the internal affairs in Osiris. If someone is acting imperialitically, it's the UDL.

Would you mind providing a post by a native that states such, like I did? Otherwise, the statements unfounded. A bit of a reciprocation of your first argument if you ask me.

Wait, the Delegate is not a rightful native?

The delegate retains their position based on the prerogative of the constituents, not their own. Considering the region is based on the premise of no organized administrative system, the delegate had no right calling TITO in to re-establish his position, as he had no such right to begin with.

[Planet Metroid]

Totally For. I'm all for increasing the civil rights of independent nations, and the less legislation limiting those rights, the better.

[Post-Apocaliptian WA Offices]

Totally For. I'm all for increasing the civil rights of independent nations, and the less legislation limiting those rights, the better.

"Pardon me, but how exactly was a commendation of a region suppressing the civil rights of independent nations? If you mean that TITO was suppressing those rights, then I'd love to argue that point, but the resolution itself does not."

[Aaderonia]

As lord of Aaderonia and the lord of Aadonia II, also as the chosen Recent of multiple nations within my region. Also as the second ever Aader of Aadonia. I call into question the TITO and push to try each of the invader and rogues with charges of Terrorism and Complete Disregard of their treaty.



I also ask that we herby disavow TITO and form a coalition of nations to combat this threat to National and Region Sovereignty and Peace.

[New Rogernomics]

As lord of Aaderonia and the lord of Aadonia II, also as the chosen Recent of multiple nations within my region. Also as the second ever Aader of Aadonia. I call into question the TITO and push to try each of the invader and rogues with charges of Terrorism and Complete Disregard of their treaty.



I also ask that we herby disavow TITO and form a coalition of nations to combat this threat to National and Region Sovereignty and Peace.

^ My god, and I thought this topic had reached its climax of mindless bickering. Now we have bad grammar and spelling to boot.

[Sedgistan]

^ My god, and I thought this topic had reached its climax of mindless bickering. Now we have bad grammar and spelling to boot.

Let's not add bickering about grammar and spelling to it, then?

[Imperial 2]

Totally, undoutably for.

Banning and threatening to ban a nation for not endorsing your dictate...um...del...um...protector is a raid.

I'm sorry, but you can't argue about this. That was a raid.

[Drop Your Pants]

Then every feeder is just a long term raid This is NS, we can argue about anything.

[Evil Wolf]

Nah, you're created into a feeder, therefore every nation is a native in the feeder they are born into. However, no nations are created into a sinker, they are moved there, so I guess no one is a native in Lazarus. We should rise up against the DYP dictatorship