NationStates

Derp wrote:

Sichuan Pepper wrote:
Please by all means enhance on this. What work? Seriously a link to a region?

"Further Noting that the region Anarchy was invaded and forced into a militant coup by TITO forces in which said forces claimed to be "re-instating the rightful Delegate," barring that the natives of the region had said that the TITO forces were, indeed, not restoring any rightful Delegate but endorsing their own candidate in another shockingly raider-esque tactic, and that the region Islam was invaded by the same TITO operative who performed suppression of native conversation and free will,"

Alright, after we repeal this, we condemn Sichuan Peppers...

I am for it in principle, but it is doubtful this would pass a vote.

Edit: Though I doubt this would honestly change anything whatsoever, even IF the commendation was repealed.

New Rogernomics wrote:I am for it in principle, but it is doubtful this would pass a vote.

Edit: Though I doubt this would honestly change anything whatsoever, even IF the commendation was repealed.

Probably not. However C&Cs are earned. If the WASC concludes that the grounds for no longer earning them are valid, they can be withdrawn. Then we can debate whether this repeal will succeed, but that's politics.

No, thanks.
Especially if it's going to be based on a bunch of lies.

And I suppose the entirety of XKI's army will be voting. 2 days old and already dead to the world. I still think removing the commendation is a bad move overall- but I hope all of XKI's ideological allies see whats going on and make a conscious choice to isolate them.

Fratt Armed Forces wrote:No, thanks.
Especially if it's going to be based on a bunch of lies.

If you have a filtered worldview, then certainly the truth can be interpreted as a lie. The main points still remain the same, and I am not going to go over them all over again.

Further Noting that the region Anarchy was invaded and forced into a militant coup by TITO forces in which said forces claimed to be "re-instating the rightful Delegate," barring that the natives of the region had said that the TITO forces were, indeed, not restoring any rightful Delegate but endorsing their own candidate in another shockingly raider-esque tactic

Erm, no. As far as I know, a sleeper nation (which I won't name), moved to Anarchy in mid-August and endoswapped his way up.
When the nation started receiving outside support (by new nations, with a population of 10 million or less) - and outendorsed the native delegate Seeya - TITO deployed to endorse the native delegate.
However, because of its personal beliefs, Seeya refused to ban any resident, but welcomed TITO to do that in its place, if they wanted to.

If you have the support of Seeya screaming bloody murder and condemning XKI, then okay, you will be right

the region Islam was invaded by the same TITO operative who performed suppression of native conversation and free will

Let's see what happened.
September 11th, 2011. Cobras of Israel (also known as Knights of Israel), invader, founder of the Phantom Knights, griefer of NATO and currently griefing Utopia entered the region, with the support of other TPK members to take the delegacy from its native delegate, Doodmaster (now CTEd). Uhm, okay, a know invader/griefer named 'Cobras of Israel' tries taking over the region Islam. His comment on his RMB, dated 9/11 is: "The Kingdom of Cobras of Israel 38 days ago God bless the city of New York".
Ah, the joys of giving to raiding a political purpose.

Since Doodmaster was inactive, it was decided to switch delegacy to a defender lead (as it is commonly done) to ban the invaders.
And that's what happened. Invader spam is an offense to a native RMB, especially if it borders on trolling (Given the subtle assumption that Islam was to blame for 9/11 ...) and should be suppressed. Full stop.

Bring a better example, please.

Realizing, however, lately, 10000 Islands and the defender organization TITO, based out of 10000 Islands, has turned rogue in multiple cases in different regions, resulting in the tragic displacement of native nations and unwanted nations being forcibly placed impositions of power

An exaggeration. I think that, throughout its history, TITO only performed three operations that might fit the above sentence.
Which means that there's only one native of Anarchy who's been victim of 'tragic displacement' by TITO. Viljar.


Too lazy to comment on Osiris. If you really want to read something, I'll post later
EDIT: *quotes Topid*

Topid wrote:I've been critical of what I thought were TITO raids in the past, but I must admit this whole case over the new sinker is total bull. The raiders wanted it, knew they couldn't beat TITO and are thus throwing a tantrum because there was an "invasion". It's a new GCR, no matter who takes the delegate spot, it is going to be through moving into the region as a WA and endorsing someone. Unless they wanted there not to ever be a delegate, it is a stupid charge, unless they are only making it in the hopes TITO will flee from the "scandal" and they finally get their hands on the sinker.

I don't know anything about Anarchy, I've been inactive. As far as I'm concerned what you are saying could be true, but I don't need to check it out because I'll vote against this based on the above regardless.

Your poor attempts at psychologizing are just that; poor attempts. I, Kain, and the evil invaders, have been working with the others on an irc and forum -- made by Zaolat -- and have been discussing on how our government should be structured. If you read any of my posts, you will see that I was in favour of a democratically elected government.

Nah let's not.

And that's even though I've got a much more legit grievance, won't accept my embassy cause I'm a 'warzone' even though I'm more active and managed to keep my region around longer many of those who do have embassies. bah

Sounds too much like moaning for me

Drop Your Pants wrote:Sounds too much like moaning for me

A large number of residents in Osiris/Anarchy would argue otherwise.

Only the raider ones Those regions are too new to have natives to complain.

But since you mentioned it, can you ask the residents of each region to post their views here?

Drop Your Pants wrote:Only the raider ones Those regions are too new to have natives to complain.

But since you mentioned it, can you ask the residents of each region to post their views here?

I'm here.

I call shenanigans!

Osiris is one of the new sinkers created to take some of the bulk of nations out of the bloated resurrection region: Lazarus. The moment it’s created, a known invader swoops in and is denied their prize by defenders from the 10000 Islands. The defenders post on the region board that they want to hand over the regional government of the new sinker to natives in organized elections and want to help shepherd the new region through the process, while invaders are yipping at the door to have another go at the place.

This repeal fails to mention the fact that invaders jumped into Osiris the moment it was created and seems to imply that they were there to provide pony rides for the newly created natives of the region. For some reason the author of this repeal has also chosen to compare 10000 Islands with a bunch of Nazi themed invader regions and vandalistic invaders that have been previously condemned. Really? It’s especially an odd thing to include in a repeal that should only appeal to invaders, when so many invader groups have worked closely with members of Nazi themed invaders regions in past invasions.

The whole repeal smacks of sour grapes by invaders who weren’t allowed to use an empty sinker region as their private punching bag and then make a big thread in the gameplay section of the forum about their great victory over an empty region.

Has anyone adequately addressed this yet?: Who exactly are the "natives" of a region that is one day old?

I'm totally against this. It sounds like a loud of sour grapes.

Omigodtheykilledkenny wrote:Has anyone adequately addressed this yet?: Who exactly are the "natives" of a region that is one day old?

Not a whole lot to start with, but given the process that made Lazarus the biggest region in NationStates, there will be a lot more soon. The problem is that the majority of the nations currently contesting Osiris and Balder are members of various power blocks and interests. I have no doubts that members of various power blocks and interests will be resurrecting dead puppets to seed in these regions to continue their agendas in these sinkers.

Invaders have waited since 2004 for new game construct regions to fight over, so it's not a big surprise that they would jump on them or that defenders would be there to fight them. On the bright side it's very possible that fighting over these regions is partly responsible for dismantling the invader army that was camped in the Proletariat Coalition.

Skyrim Diplomacy wrote:

Drop Your Pants wrote:Sounds too much like moaning for me

A large number of residents in Osiris/Anarchy would argue otherwise.

Nice to see you took Islam off the list
And both Anarchy and Osiris have been addressed. They aren't invasions, no matter how you put it.

The Bruce wrote:I call shenanigans!

Osiris is one of the new sinkers created to take some of the bulk of nations out of the bloated resurrection region: Lazarus. The moment it’s created, a known invader swoops in and is denied their prize by defenders from the 10000 Islands. ...
This repeal fails to mention the fact that invaders jumped into Osiris the moment it was created and seems to imply that they were there to provide pony rides for the newly created natives of the region. For some reason the author of this repeal has also chosen to compare 10000 Islands with a bunch of Nazi themed invader regions and vandalistic invaders that have been previously condemned. Really? It’s especially an odd thing to include in a repeal that should only appeal to invaders, when so many invader groups have worked closely with members of Nazi themed invaders regions in past invasions.

That statement of yours really brings to to question whether you have even bothered to visit the following topic (a good place to start: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=146406&start=25) at all, let alone visited the RMB (where Revert posted for quite along time, condemning the entrance of TITO into the region, and where most of the arguments against the invasion took place), where most, if not all of your queries have already been addressed.

1) Kain the Dragoon was invited by the Sole WA nation in the region, which prior to the TITO invasion/entry/incident, was one of 8 natives in the region, a native meaning a member of a region that existed after an update aka why there was a world census report. To undermine the premise that a world census report carries weight, is to suggest that no region can justify the world census report as evidence for their existence (or right to existence), which I am sorry to say not only is ludicrous but totally uncalled for.

2) With the above made clear, lets move on to the claim it was an 'invasion', so far in discussions on IRC and elsewhere I have come to understand TITO was not there to invade, but to stop Kain the Dragoon obtaining power/the delegacy in the region, even though the sole WA native, Revert had already accepted Kain's presence and his beginning contributions to the region aka a regional forum, regional government and community, which would at least as TITO believed against its regional interests i.e. it felt a raider regardless of his actions in other regions, or current history is bad in control of a region regardless of what he claims his intentions are.

3) I have no statement to make concerning these 'nazi' regions, due to not having been there at the time, but I deeply resent and am disgusted by the suggestion that Kain the Dragoon and all other invaders are in the same league so to speak as Nazi themed regions, and that some how invaders are exactly the same because some invaders helped the Nazi themed regions in their invasions, that is a pretty massive generalization there.

I really think you should have to provide evidence to back that up, but I mainly am just cringing at your suggestion that the entire invader/raider community in NS is some strongly connected or closely tied with the Nazi themed regions to the point all raiders/invaders are the same. Is this slander, or an honest statement, I hope it is the earlier rather than a honest statement because I can assure you most invaders/raiders I know aren't anti-semites , and join other raiders/invaders not on the basis of their political/racial views but for the fun of raiding/invading, and plenty of raiders/invaders have never sided with them/helped them. I know this is a rather complex reality to grasp, that guilt by association won't work here, so I will leave you to rant and rave and dig a bigger hole for yourself on this issue.

4) If you are to bring up vandalizing, and refer to Kain and Dragoon and others as vandalizing, I would really visit the dictionary again. In fact I will save you the trouble, the free dictionary should do the trick:

van·dal·ize (vndl-z)
tr.v. van·dal·ized, van·dal·iz·ing, van·dal·iz·es
To destroy or deface (public or private property) willfully or maliciously.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/vandalize

1) Deface -If coming into the region, and taking over, and then posting all over the RMB, and taking the delegacy and then banning nations isn't defacing the region, what is? Though, I admit this isn't really the part that deserves the intention.

2) Destroy - This is the part that deserves is the intention, TITO DID willfully destroy a community, because it didn't like the outcome it perceived would occur from Kain's existence in the region. The natives however were quite happy with Kain being there, so by all means claim TITO were 'helping the natives' or simply stopping the 'demonic' Kain from 'taking the region', when Kain had already won the natives over (the main reason for the TITO invasion in the first place).

But I believe your mind was made up even before you saw the evidence, so really anything I will say to you is mute. You decided simply on the basis of Kain's past history, and generalizations over invaders, not to mention a predisposed good feeling towards TITO.

As for this repeal of commendation, you are not making a stronger case by simply covering up or putting a white sheet over the recent events in Osiris. It is up to TITO, and their supporters to prove they really deserve their commendation, as a result of recent events. It's not for me to say whether TITO deserves a repeal of its commendation, as to be honest I don't spend my waking hours watching invasions/raids/defense missions or so forth, I just happened to be in one such event in Osiris. I would suggest illustrating the good works TITO has completed over the years, rather than doodling over Osiris. Which considering the recent negotiations over the region, is not helpful whatsoever, in fact I was over the invasion, and condemning TITO yesterday, now I am looking forward to the election process in Osiris, as difficult as that thought also is to grasp.
... Image Removed
Edit: Because auto correction kept altering words, which is really annoying when it changes there to their, and so forth. So I apologize for this in advance, also Kain gave me this.....Image link removed, which is the reason for the sixth edit, don't ask how it took six edits...computer trouble.

New Rogernomics wrote:I mainly am just cringing at your suggestion that the entire invader/raider community in NS is some strongly connected or closely tied with the Nazi themed regions to the point all raiders/invaders are the same.

"the author of this repeal has also chosen to compare 10000 Islands with a bunch of Nazi themed invader regions and vandalistic invaders"
"the author of this repeal has also chosen to compare 10000 Islands' behaviour to that of previously condemned regions, among them Nazi-themed invaders (NAZI EUROPE, the Greater German Reich) and vandalistic invaders (The Black Hawks)."

The sentence doesn't estabilish a tie between Nazis and others (professional?) invaders, except by stating that both have received condemnations in the past (which is first mentioned in one of the clauses of the proposal).

Fratt Armed Forces wrote:

New Rogernomics wrote:I mainly am just cringing at your suggestion that the entire invader/raider community in NS is some strongly connected or closely tied with the Nazi themed regions to the point all raiders/invaders are the same.

"the author of this repeal has also chosen to compare 10000 Islands with a bunch of Nazi themed invader regions and vandalistic invaders"
"the author of this repeal has also chosen to compare 10000 Islands' behaviour to that of previously condemned regions, among them Nazi-themed invaders (NAZI EUROPE, the Greater German Reich) and vandalistic invaders (The Black Hawks)."

The sentence doesn't estabilish a tie between Nazis and others (professional?) invaders, except by stating that both have received condemnations in the past (which is first mentioned in one of the clauses of the proposal).

It’s especially an odd thing to include in a repeal that should only appeal to invaders, when so many invader groups have worked closely with members of Nazi themed invaders regions in past invasions.

Are you trying to post a coherent argument or just trolling. DITTO. Guilt by association.
Edit: On second thoughts there was probably appeal to emotion and appeal to history there as well in Bruce's 'argument'.

New Rogernomics wrote:

Fratt Armed Forces wrote:
"the author of this repeal has also chosen to compare 10000 Islands with a bunch of Nazi themed invader regions and vandalistic invaders"
"the author of this repeal has also chosen to compare 10000 Islands' behaviour to that of previously condemned regions, among them Nazi-themed invaders (NAZI EUROPE, the Greater German Reich) and vandalistic invaders (The Black Hawks)."

The sentence doesn't estabilish a tie between Nazis and others (professional?) invaders, except by stating that both have received condemnations in the past (which is first mentioned in one of the clauses of the proposal).

It’s especially an odd thing to include in a repeal that should only appeal to invaders, when so many invader groups have worked closely with members of Nazi themed invaders regions in past invasions.

Are you trying to post a coherent argument or just trolling. DITTO. Guilt by association.

Point being, ultimately, TITO/XKI has acted in a manner that has gotten other regions condemned. Whether they are/aren't Nazis is irrelevant.

Skyrim Diplomacy wrote:

New Rogernomics wrote:
Are you trying to post a coherent argument or just trolling. DITTO. Guilt by association.

Point being, ultimately, TITO/XKI has acted in a manner that has gotten other regions condemned. Whether they are/aren't Nazis is irrelevant.

Well essentially the whole Nazi thing is *yawn*, but yep.

Skyrim Diplomacy wrote:

The Security Council,

Acknowledging that 10000 Islands once stood as a pinnacle of the defensive efforts of the world and that forces there have aided many a wrongly-invaded region,

Realizing, however, that as-of-late 10000 Islands and the defender organization TITO, based out of 10000 Islands, has turned rogue in multiple cases in different regions,

Pointing Out that TITO has violated the wishes of natives and long-standing regional residents, including banning and ejecting nations as well as acting in a manner that has resulted in the Condemnation of regions such as The Black Hawks and Unknown,

Noting the power-grabbing manner in which TITO executed a raid-style invasion of the region Osiris soon after it was founded, in which the TITO operative Sichuan Pepper not only took control of the region but proceeded to ban and eject multiple nations displaying no hostility or malevolence toward the region or populous thereof,

Further Noting that the region Anarchy was invaded and forced into a militant coup by TITO forces in which said forces claimed to be "re-instating the rightful Delegate," barring that the natives of the region had said that the TITO forces were, indeed, not restoring any rightful Delegate but endorsing their own candidate in another shockingly raider-esque tactic,

Appalled that 10000 Islands would not only sanction such invasions and land-grabs but would would proudly flaunt the maneuver and house the invaders responsible, all while flying the banner of "justice,"

Hereby Repeals SCR#30, Commend 10000 Islands.

Current Draft now stands as:

The Security Council,

Acknowledging that 10000 Islands once stood as a pinnacle of the defensive efforts of the world and that their forces there have aided many a wrongly-invaded region,

Concerned by the overzealous military policies of 10000 Islands, in which nations that do not share their views were regarded as "bullies" or "menaces", as well as their questionable operations as of late, which has resulted in tyranny under the guise of justice,

Realizing, however, lately, 10000 Islands and the defender organization TITO, based out of 10000 Islands, has turned rogue in multiple cases in different regions, resulting in the tragic displacement of native nations and unwanted nations being forcibly placed impositions of power,

Pointing Out that TITO has violated the wishes of natives and long-standing regional residents, including banning and ejecting nations, as well as acting in a manner that has resulted in the Condemnation of regions such as The Black Hawks, NAZI EUROPE, and the Greater German Reich,

Noting the power-grabbing manner in which TITO executed a raid-style invasion of the region Osiris - the demographics and influence of which displaying the potential to become an exorbitant entity, soon after it was founded - in which the TITO operative Sichuan Pepper not only took control of the region but proceeded to ban and eject multiple nations displaying no hostility or malevolence toward the region or populous thereof,

Further Noting that the region Anarchy was invaded and forced into a militant coup by TITO forces in which said forces claimed to be "re-instating the rightful Delegate," barring that the natives of the region had said that the TITO forces were, indeed, not restoring any rightful Delegate but endorsing their own candidate in another shockingly raider-esque tactic, and that the region Islam was invaded by the same TITO operative who performed suppression of native conversation and free will,

Appalled that 10000 Islands would not only sanction such invasions and land-grabs but would would proudly flaunt the maneuver and house the invaders responsible, while simultaneously attempting to control regional elections outside of 10000 Islands and impose this will on unwilling natives, all while flying the banner of "justice,"

Recognizing that by the events above, 10000 Islands has reversed the course of actions that originally resulted in their Commendation and are therefore now unworthy to hold the badge,

Hereby Repeals SCR#30, Commend 10000 Islands.

Co-Authored by Connopolis

I support this

New Rogernomics wrote:1) Kain the Dragoon was invited by the Sole WA nation in the region, which prior to the TITO invasion/entry/incident, was one of 8 natives in the region, a native meaning a member of a region that existed after an update aka why there was a world census report. To undermine the premise that a world census report carries weight, is to suggest that no region can justify the world census report as evidence for their existence (or right to existence), which I am sorry to say not only is ludicrous but totally uncalled for.

(Emphasis added.)

That has to be one of the worst definitions of "native" that I've ever heard. One of the traditional definitions from the pre-influence days involved "permanent or long-term residents". I fail to see how one can establish nativity by moving into a game-created region a few hours earlier than others.

As I said in another thread, I'd prefer to consider all current residents of Osiris to be "inhabitants", not "natives" or "invaders", especially when there's no real regional government established. It's really way too early to figure out who actually wants to stay in those regions long-term and who's not.

Personally I want to wait a bit before taking any C&C action regarding events in Osiris. Let's see how things end up looking in a week or two, shall we?