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[Scrapped] Declaration on the Equality of Sophonts

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Yursea
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Postby Yursea » Thu May 09, 2024 11:03 pm

This is a great draft Nu Elysium!

Just ignore Tesseris, his comments aren't relevant to this thread besides his stated opinion against it. All you need to do is polish and then submit.
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Rosartemis
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Postby Rosartemis » Fri May 10, 2024 3:35 am

Support, the original draft is great, but here are some possible changes that could be made:
Defining a sophont as having the ability to reason, being self aware, and being able to manipulate their environment,

Recognizing Noting that there have been previous World Assembly resolutions that acknowledge the rights of non-humans,

Ashamed (Expressing dismay?) that there are many nations in existence that currently oppress suppress their non-human population population,

Acknowledging instances where non-humans have oppressed both humans and other non-human beings, Acknowledging that there are many examples of non-human oppressing humans and other non-humans,

Appalled by those who seek to exploit this esteemed council Shocked that there are some who wish to use this esteemed council to further oppress various categories of sophonts, in order to oppress other categories of sophonts further,

Observing numerous examples of diverse classes of beings peacefully coexisting across the multiverse, Noting that there are many examples of multiple classes of beings peacefully coexisting across the multiverse,

Believing that all sophonts are entitled to the same rights as any other,

Hereby declares that all sophonts are equal and should be treated as such, and

Implores the World Assembly's member nations to treat all categories of their citizens equally.


All in all I see no issue with this being a declaration, and see its motivations to be reasonable above all.

Might also be possible to end that final line as "Urges members of the World Assembly", but take your pick.
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The Ice States
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Postby The Ice States » Mon May 13, 2024 10:17 pm

This is well-written, however I'm not sure if it would comply with Rule 3b; there does exist similar legislation in the GA already in the form of GA #355.
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Tesseris
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Postby Tesseris » Mon May 13, 2024 10:20 pm

The Ice States wrote:This is well-written, however I'm not sure if it would comply with Rule 3b; there does exist similar legislation in the GA already in the form of GA #355.


Thats the GA I want to repeal, because it sucks. Rights are only for humans.
Last edited by Tesseris on Mon May 13, 2024 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Rosartemis
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Postby Rosartemis » Mon May 13, 2024 10:36 pm

Tesseris wrote:
The Ice States wrote:This is well-written, however I'm not sure if it would comply with Rule 3b; there does exist similar legislation in the GA already in the form of GA #355.


Thats the GA I want to repeal, because it sucks. Rights are only for humans.

I'm certain all the non-human GA members are going to be thrilled to help you repeal it.
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Nu Elysium
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Postby Nu Elysium » Mon May 13, 2024 10:40 pm

Rosartemis wrote:
Tesseris wrote:
Thats the GA I want to repeal, because it sucks. Rights are only for humans.

I'm certain all the non-human GA members are going to be thrilled to help you repeal it.

They already tried to pass a declaration on similar lines to a repeal of 355.
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Attempted Socialism
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Postby Attempted Socialism » Tue May 14, 2024 4:40 pm

The first line, "defining a sophont", is poorly worded. I would at the very least add "as a being that has...", but that doesn't fix the issue that beings who become unable to reason (through old age, disease, or otherwise diminished faculties) implicitly are excluded from the declaration, as are beings that cease to be self aware or able to manipulate their surroundings (such as persistent vegetative state). You should consider making the declaration cover all members of a species that usually has those three traits.

I think the idea is a good one, but this draft will need some work before it's ready.


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The Overmind
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Postby The Overmind » Tue May 14, 2024 4:48 pm

Attempted Socialism wrote:The first line, "defining a sophont", is poorly worded. I would at the very least add "as a being that has...", but that doesn't fix the issue that beings who become unable to reason (through old age, disease, or otherwise diminished faculties) implicitly are excluded from the declaration, as are beings that cease to be self aware or able to manipulate their surroundings (such as persistent vegetative state). You should consider making the declaration cover all members of a species that usually has those three traits.

I think the idea is a good one, but this draft will need some work before it's ready.

You and I had a rather nice discussion going back trying to nail down the definition of sentient!
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Reventus Koth
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Postby Reventus Koth » Wed May 15, 2024 6:32 am

This proposal doesn't go far enough. We should recognize the equality of all sentient beings, bring full-on animal liberation ideology to the Security Council.
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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Wed May 15, 2024 8:28 am

What about special accommodations?

Like, can a government offer a disability tax credit to a person with a disability, or is that not treating them equally?

If you allow service dogs in restaurants do we need to let all dogs in?

Should social housing be available for the wealthy?
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Attempted Socialism
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Postby Attempted Socialism » Wed May 15, 2024 9:57 am

Unibot III wrote:What about special accommodations?

Like, can a government offer a disability tax credit to a person with a disability, or is that not treating them equally?

If you allow service dogs in restaurants do we need to let all dogs in?

Should social housing be available for the wealthy?

Since this is a declaration, the answer is the same to all your questions: not applicable.


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The Kharkivan Cossacks
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Postby The Kharkivan Cossacks » Wed May 15, 2024 1:27 pm

Support, just needs a bit of work.
Oh, and ignore Tesseris, their just trying to get in the way.
Last edited by The Kharkivan Cossacks on Wed May 15, 2024 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Outer Sparta
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Postby Outer Sparta » Wed May 15, 2024 2:17 pm

As AS and others said, focus on fleshing out the definitions as they will be important for setting up the premise of your proposal. Since it's a declaration, you don't need to mandate member states to do anything, so that should take out a good chunk of the work.
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The Overmind
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Postby The Overmind » Wed May 15, 2024 2:32 pm

Would be happy to discuss nailing down definitions by TG. Already did a similar exercise for a sentient rights GA proposal (not yet drafted on the forums) with The Ice States based on an older draft Attempted Socialism helped me with, and I work (OOC) in neuroscience/psychology research on specifically metacognition in a consciousness research adjacent field.
Last edited by The Overmind on Wed May 15, 2024 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Arakhkhar
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Postby Arakhkhar » Thu May 16, 2024 12:02 am

Good proposal.

Main issue I see is with the definition of what a Sophont is, though.
For instance, take a cat. According to a loose interpretation of each prerequisite, a sophont can be defined as meeting these characteristics.

A cat can reason - it knows how to reason, to obtain certain items.
A cat is aware of its own existence. This has been demonstrated in the past.
A cat can manipulate its environment. Obviously so.

Does that mean we should define a cat as being the afforded the same legal rights as a human? Or at least, considered equal in status to humanity?


Also, from an IC standpoint, all sophonts are equal in one respect - the necessity to serve the Empress, of course.
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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Thu May 16, 2024 12:37 pm

Attempted Socialism wrote:
Unibot III wrote:What about special accommodations?

Like, can a government offer a disability tax credit to a person with a disability, or is that not treating them equally?

If you allow service dogs in restaurants do we need to let all dogs in?

Should social housing be available for the wealthy?

Since this is a declaration, the answer is the same to all your questions: not applicable.


Why would we declare everyone is equal, without explaining what the WA means by that?

It’s like treating a resolution as a bumper sticker.
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Tesseris
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Postby Tesseris » Thu May 16, 2024 10:13 pm

Reventus Koth wrote:This proposal doesn't go far enough. We should recognize the equality of all sentient beings, bring full-on animal liberation ideology to the Security Council.


Nations like you are a threat to the established order of mankind. Sentience is not an automatic garner of rights, and nor should it be. Only humans should be entitled to rights, and any others should serve mankind or get out of our way. Nations like yours are a threat to mankind and a menace to humanity.
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New Westmore
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Postby New Westmore » Fri May 17, 2024 2:35 am

Tesseris wrote:
Reventus Koth wrote:This proposal doesn't go far enough. We should recognize the equality of all sentient beings, bring full-on animal liberation ideology to the Security Council.


Nations like you are a threat to the established order of mankind. Sentience is not an automatic garner of rights, and nor should it be. Only humans should be entitled to rights, and any others should serve mankind or get out of our way. Nations like yours are a threat to mankind and a menace to humanity.

OK, OK, I think just about everybody has had it with your bullshit. For the betterment of the thread, if you have nothing productive to add, then just stop and move on.

Anyway, I support this resolution wholeheartedly. All sapients, regardless of species, creed, upbringing, gender or what have you deserve nothing but equal and just treatment.
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Unogonduria
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Postby Unogonduria » Fri May 17, 2024 2:47 am

Tesseris wrote:
Reventus Koth wrote:This proposal doesn't go far enough. We should recognize the equality of all sentient beings, bring full-on animal liberation ideology to the Security Council.


Nations like you are a threat to the established order of mankind. Sentience is not an automatic garner of rights, and nor should it be. Only humans should be entitled to rights, and any others should serve mankind or get out of our way. Nations like yours are a threat to mankind and a menace to humanity.

I wholeheartedly disagree. The expression "made in God's image" likely wasn't meant by Moses to be taken literally once he was writing Genesis. So
theoretically ( :ugeek: :ugeek: ), there could be more species made in the Imago Dei
Reventus Koth wrote:This proposal doesn't go far enough. We should recognize the equality of all sentient beings, bring full-on animal liberation ideology to the Security Council.

Well what the hell do you want, you're gonna let a Centipede vote for a president?
/j
Last edited by Unogonduria on Fri May 17, 2024 2:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unogonduria
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Postby Unogonduria » Fri May 17, 2024 2:58 am

Nu Elysium wrote:
Eat your heart out, Ignis.
The Security Council,
Defining a sophont as having the ability to reason, being self aware, and being able to manipulate their environment,

Noting that there have been previous World Assembly resolutions that acknowledge the rights of non-humans,

Ashamed that there are many nations in existence that currently suppress their non-human population population,

Acknowledging that there are many examples of non-human oppressing humans and other non-humans,

Shocked that there are some who wish to use this esteemed council in order to oppress other categories of sophonts further,

Noting that there are many examples of multiple classes of beings peacefully coexisting across the multiverse,

Believing that all sophonts are entitled to the same rights as any other,

Hereby declares that all sophonts are equal and should be treated as such, and

Implores the World Assembly's member nations to treat all categories of their citizens equally.

This is my first res draft. I'm worried about the definition of sophonts specifically, so if anyone has any suggestions, please list them and ill modify the draft.

I don't think the definition of sophont, without, as another nation has noted sometime before me in the same thread, without including animals like cats (as was his example), should be that. It has a loose definition really, as we're the only sophont species that we have ever known, however, we might come to some type of conclusion. You might want to add they they highly depend on technology and technological development and will hardly survive without them, else you risk giving voting rights to an elephant, an octopus, and a raven.
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Tesseris
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Postby Tesseris » Sat May 18, 2024 2:23 pm

All sapients, regardless of species, creed, upbringing, gender or what have you deserve nothing but equal and just treatment.


This has to be the dumbest thing I've ever seen, except for the comments made communist supporters on the What do you think about Communisms? Thread. This is negative IQ levels
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Reploid Productions
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Postby Reploid Productions » Sat May 18, 2024 3:17 pm

Tesseris wrote:
All sapients, regardless of species, creed, upbringing, gender or what have you deserve nothing but equal and just treatment.


This has to be the dumbest thing I've ever seen, except for the comments made communist supporters on the What do you think about Communisms? Thread. This is negative IQ levels

Guess I need to add this post to the three-day ban I smacked you with there.
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New Westmore
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Postby New Westmore » Sun May 19, 2024 3:44 am

Tesseris wrote:
All sapients, regardless of species, creed, upbringing, gender or what have you deserve nothing but equal and just treatment.


This has to be the dumbest thing I've ever seen, except for the comments made communist supporters on the What do you think about Communisms? Thread. This is negative IQ levels

You being so outwardly edgy and obnoxious both IC and OOC has to be the dumbest thing I have ever seen. Quiet down.
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United Calanworie
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Postby United Calanworie » Sun May 19, 2024 11:26 am

New Westmore wrote:
Tesseris wrote:
This has to be the dumbest thing I've ever seen, except for the comments made communist supporters on the What do you think about Communisms? Thread. This is negative IQ levels

You being so outwardly edgy and obnoxious both IC and OOC has to be the dumbest thing I have ever seen. Quiet down.

Just because somebody has been banned for bad behavior doesn't mean you get to flame them in return. Given your recent stern caution, you're *** warned for flaming *** for this post.
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Nu Elysium
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Postby Nu Elysium » Mon May 20, 2024 1:10 pm

I have decided to scrap this proposal because resolution 355 exists and because this already does what I'm looking to do but better.
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