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[LAST CALL] Commend The Holy Principality of Saint Mark

A chamber dedicated to the dissemination of inter-regional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.

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Nova Vandalia
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Postby Nova Vandalia » Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:08 am

Well done Gio, the only thing I have to add is something that can't go into the proposal and that is Mark's consistent ability in any region to cultivate a culture of support and caring for the players behind the nation. He has a unique ability to get to know anyone and connect with them on a personal level. He a person who has always come off as genuine in my conversations with him. It's something I personally admire and wish that that part could be recognized but alas...we have rules against that >:(.
I see a lot of people discussing Mark's "non compliance" which doesn't make particular sense to me. C&C's were designed to give light to an individual nation's contribution to a region or regions or to the game as a whole, to deny all other contributions for a single GA resolution a nation disagrees with to me cheapens the purpose of C&C's. Now I get that the GA folx play the game their way, but so do the NSGP folx, the R/D folx, the Card folx, and the hardcore RP folx and this "non-compliance stance" to me shows a lack of respect for the contributions some one can make inside those other communities. It's a very shut off insular perspective from the rest of the game, when you're judging a person outside of your community by niche rule they never agreed to adhere too. This line of thinking demeans honest contributions, and is saddening to see especially when targeted towards someone who has done a lot for the Foreign Affairs community, for many regions, and for many individuals.
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Sanctaria
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Postby Sanctaria » Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:36 am

Nova Vandalia wrote: see a lot of people discussing Mark's "non compliance" which doesn't make particular sense to me. C&C's were designed to give light to an individual nation's contribution to a region or regions or to the game as a whole, to deny all other contributions for a single GA resolution a nation disagrees with to me cheapens the purpose of C&C's. Now I get that the GA folx play the game their way, but so do the NSGP folx, the R/D folx, the Card folx, and the hardcore RP folx and this "non-compliance stance" to me shows a lack of respect for the contributions some one can make inside those other communities. It's a very shut off insular perspective from the rest of the game, when you're judging a person outside of your community by niche rule they never agreed to adhere too. This line of thinking demeans honest contributions, and is saddening to see especially when targeted towards someone who has done a lot for the Foreign Affairs community, for many regions, and for many individuals.

Saint Mark signed a dispatch that very publicly claimed non-compliance with a resolution and was widely disseminated amongst GA circles. I absolutely agree that when the proposed commendee is being commended for things wholly not about the GA then inadvertent or small-scale infractions shouldn't be an issue, and in this instance throughout the posts I have made, at least, in this thread I never said I'd actively campaign against the proposal as I might have done if it was a primarily GA author being commended for GA stuff. In my case, I merely said for me, and for my vote, it'd be a no, because of this nation's (whether intended or not) impact on the GA RP community through that dispatch.

I absolutely appreciate, on a general note, that many Gameplayers find the idea of people opposing the commendation or bringing up Saint Mark's declared non-compliance as a distraction or as silly, but the Security Council should be used not just by Gameplayers but also those involved in RP, and that includes the GA. If there are multiple communities involved in the SC, when it comes to things like proposed commendations, there will be different approaches or different levels on which nations in those communities grade the appropriateness of a commendation, or indeed a condemnation, and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

Saint Mark may very well deserve a commendation for their work in the West Pacific and that's absolutely fantastic and I wish them well. But as a RPer/GAer who votes in the Security Council too, I take a different approach to what gets my vote, and I don't see anything wrong with that personally. I mentioned my opposition because I happened to be in the forum when the topic came up, and because I recognised the name, but I think it would be a pity if people are going to get hung up every time someone has a different approach or voices some (related to their sub-community anyway) opposition.

It seems, at least to me, that because one person who happens to be active in a different sub-community has a dissenting opinion on the commendation, some people are taking it as personal attacks by the entirety of that sub-community on this nominee, or the nominee's region. I don't think that should automatically be the position, I think it should be straightforward enough to acknowledge "well this person is from X community where they hold Y rule as important, and the nominee signed something that intended to publicly undermined Y rule, so I can see how they might be annoyed, but we're going to go ahead with the commendation because I think there's wider support there for the nominee's work in Z community". Not everything is an attack, sometimes there just is differences of opinion.

Anyway, I wish you well with the commendation. I think from a region-building perspective, there's a lot of good work there, so I'm sure you won't have too much trouble getting more support.
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Postby Team Lennox » Thu Jul 08, 2021 8:15 am

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Praeceps
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Postby Praeceps » Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:34 pm

Astrobolt wrote:
Big Bad Badger wrote:
Thank you.


So my question for Alger or anyone who knows is where and when was Halo GA non-compliant? Honestly this non-compliance thing looks like make believe.



Well, they signed this dispatch written by United Massachusetts. This dispatch stated that those who signed will not comply with all resolutions protecting the right to choose. This dispatch is nothing but a slap in the face to the GA community. Moreover, the WA should not commend a nation who refuses to follow its laws.

That being said, I'll retract my firm opposition if Halo comes out and denounces the dispatch.

Essentially my position as well. As a non-GA regular and non-RPer, opposed.
Last edited by Praeceps on Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Tinhampton » Thu Jul 08, 2021 8:36 pm

Halo resigned from the WA around 24th July 2020, a fortnight after the CIAP was promulgated. Using the sanctions standard of GA#440.IV.4, "the issue bec[ame] moot" and Halo was no longer bound to any WA legislation about a year ago. Why are we still whipping a horse that died the day before Boris Johnson decided that requiring people to wear face coverings at Tesco was a good idea?
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Giovanniland
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Postby Giovanniland » Sat Jul 10, 2021 3:41 pm

Bump from 2nd page and also announcement that a new draft is up! See the edited OP for the new draft.

I tried to solve the concerns brought by Honeydewistania, Lord Dominator, and Zukchiva. Changes: the introduction has been adjusted to be better written in the SC's viewpoint, RP Discord server clause amended so that it can be more clear what I am referring to (still can't directly refer to 'roleplay' since that is illegal per SC rules), removed the Guardian clause, edited the Master Dispatch mention to make more clear what I was trying to say, rewrote the University clause so the list of contributions by Halo to it was more accurate, and also added more detail to the Albion and Edlhus clauses.

Note that, while I tried to message some people involved in the Lazarus-Osiris-NPO incident about more clarification, it seems that revealing too much information about how the conflict was solved might be too sensitive. I am in the process of trying to find more (public) information, though for now I have to leave the clause as is.
Last edited by Giovanniland on Sat Jul 10, 2021 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Giovanniland » Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:44 pm

Some minor edits were made, though there was not much else I could do since there was no more feedback after I published Draft 2. Perhaps bumping it again will attract some more comments.
Last edited by Giovanniland on Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wayneactia
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Postby Wayneactia » Sun Jul 18, 2021 3:50 pm

Badger wrote:
Astrobolt wrote:

Well, they signed this dispatch written by United Massachusetts. This dispatch stated that those who signed will not comply with all resolutions protecting the right to choose. This dispatch is nothing but a slap in the face to the GA community. Moreover, the WA should not commend a nation who refuses to follow its laws.

That being said, I'll retract my firm opposition if Halo comes out and denounces the dispatch.

Thank you for pointing this out. I believe that this dispatch is pure make believe. It has no bearing on game mechanics and in my opinion is moot. Empty words.

Come on Badger, you know very well that's not how it works. If you want to be commended by the WA, then following the laws the WA passes is kind of mandatory, or at least it should be.

As much as I like the West Pacific and most of their policies, this gets no support from me. Their original commendation was repealed for a reason and it should stay repealed.
Last edited by Wayneactia on Sun Jul 18, 2021 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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HumanSanity
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Postby HumanSanity » Sun Jul 18, 2021 5:16 pm

Ultimately, a lot of the votes on this will be about non-compliance and/or GP politics. I just wanted to leave a little drafting advice here because you have a lot of research but I think we have narrative problems.

People from TWP, Karma, and Halo's other regions like Halo. They don't just like him, they really really really like him -- like he walks on water and everything he touches turns gold. Like, I've never been involved in those regions, so I couldn't tell you if it's true or not, but people make it sound like he's basically the singular greatest person and player ever and he's just the most inviting, positive, mentoring, proactive, involved, energetic, community-oriented, amazing person ever.

And given that, and the amount of emotion that is clearly on display from those communities whenever the original resolution, its subsequent repeal, and now this draft are discussed, the resolution you write needs to pack some of that punch. Your intro clause is sort of getting somewhere establishing a framework for the Commendation ("region-building") but the rest of it is fairly dry, just lists a (admittedly impressive) resume, and doesn't really do justice to the community-building elements. It's hard for me to tell you how to do that, but this isn't it, imo.

One thing to consider might be redoing your organization. Right now, it's pretty straight forward -- the TWP FA stuff, the TWP culture stuff, the TWP "other" stuff, Karma stuff, and "random stuff". I think you could afford to scramble around and play with the order within the TWP sections and -- if necessary -- cut back on or eliminate the stuff outside of TWP and Karma in order to make space for more narrative work.

Giovanniland wrote:playing a critical role in establishing a platform for TWP nations' representatives to report on national happenings, publish information about their lore, and handle situations of international importance, later successfully promoting it for residents to join;

I think that you could incorporate the "later successfully promoting it for residents to join" component into an earlier part of the clause if you want to save space. Try:
"playing a critical role in establishing and promoting a platform for TWP nations' representatives to report on national happenings, publish information about their lore, and handle situations of international importance;"

Giovanniland wrote:authoring multiple articles and editing early editions of The West Pacifican, the regional newspaper later renamed into The Western Post that publishes monthly issues with stellar reputation;

"Stellar reputation" is a bit of a meaningless phrase - although, I agree The Western Post is one of the better publications in the game lately. Anything specific Saint Mark did to set the standard on The West Pacifican/The Western Post writing/publication standards?

Giovanniland wrote:Admiring Saint Mark's efforts to preserve and improve the foreign relations of TWP by:

Is there a theme to how Saint Mark improved TWP's FA? This sort of makes it read like "Saint Mark did normal FA-boss stuff but he did it well" which... may be the case... but you could better create a narrative about the nominee if there was a way to characterize Saint Mark's approach to diplomacy was connected to his other work. If region-building is the theme of the resolution, maybe include something in here about cultural work done in building/sustaining these FA connections (and maybe move the Osi/TWP Prom and Balder event clause here?)

Giovanniland wrote:spearheading the détente with The South Pacific to reduce years-long tensions and promote a friendlier relation;

What did this accomplish/where did it go/why was it good?

Giovanniland wrote:rejuvenating the Ministry of Foreign Affairs by boosting diplomat numbers, improving the monthly reports used to keep the region aware of public foreign happenings, and authoring guides for ambassadors on how to conduct themselves and interact with their assigned regions;

This is an area we could perhaps milk it for more region-building language/focus

Giovanniland wrote:working behind the scenes to seek an end to the conflict between Lazarus, Osiris, and The Pacific, during which the latter two were treatied allies of TWP, by contacting their leaders and promoting peaceful diplomacy;

If you're not going to be able to go through and explain what happened in these talks (which is understandable) then maybe slim down the clause a bit -- details like how many of the parties were TWP allies at the time or that it was done "by contacting their leaders" are not particularly helpful.

Giovanniland wrote:their still-ongoing term as Chancellor of the University, in which they encourage new nations to enroll, welcome them, and help the classes happen smoothly, in order to fulfill the University's goal of creating new generations of regional leaders;

Are there examples of how they've created new generations of regional leaders? Universities in NS, in my experience, are a bit eh. So I want to be sold that TWP's actually works and that it works because of Saint Mark.

Giovanniland wrote:being the first Guru of Diplomacy, and in this position starting Karma's foreign relations, guiding diplomats to represent it abroad, and negotiating the treaty with Caer Sidi to further the friendship between the signatories;

I think you can shave down characters here.

Giovanniland wrote:recruiting many nations to the region and encouraging them to complete the Path of Enlightenment, in which a nation must conclude a task known as "bodhi" and be approved by the Sages to participate in The Sangha, Karma’s legislative body;

Could this clause be combined with the one about Karma lore?
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Postby Refuge Isle » Sun Jul 18, 2021 6:17 pm

HS has already made the wordsmithing comments I would have, I would have liked to see this in more of a narrative format and less of a list of lists but it is what it is.

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Postby Giovanniland » Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:54 pm

Thank you HS and Refuge for your comments. I do agree that the proposal was indeed quite a list of lists, so I've made some steps in Draft 3 to build a better narrative and pair that with the region-building focus.

HumanSanity wrote:
Giovanniland wrote:playing a critical role in establishing a platform for TWP nations' representatives to report on national happenings, publish information about their lore, and handle situations of international importance, later successfully promoting it for residents to join;

I think that you could incorporate the "later successfully promoting it for residents to join" component into an earlier part of the clause if you want to save space. Try:
"playing a critical role in establishing and promoting a platform for TWP nations' representatives to report on national happenings, publish information about their lore, and handle situations of international importance;"

Done, thank you.

HumanSanity wrote:
Giovanniland wrote:authoring multiple articles and editing early editions of The West Pacifican, the regional newspaper later renamed into The Western Post that publishes monthly issues with stellar reputation;

"Stellar reputation" is a bit of a meaningless phrase - although, I agree The Western Post is one of the better publications in the game lately. Anything specific Saint Mark did to set the standard on The West Pacifican/The Western Post writing/publication standards?

I've gotten rid of the stellar reputation phrase if that helps. I can't really think of anything specific that Halo did regarding publication standards, but I've rewrote the clause to focus on the fact that his authoring/editing during 2017 to 2019 did lay much of the foundation that allowed The West Pacifican/The Western Post to flourish nowadays, even if the newspaper wasn't at its best by then - I think that is worth noting, since I can't really see The Western Post as it is today without the work Halo put earlier.

HumanSanity wrote:
Giovanniland wrote:Admiring Saint Mark's efforts to preserve and improve the foreign relations of TWP by:

Is there a theme to how Saint Mark improved TWP's FA? This sort of makes it read like "Saint Mark did normal FA-boss stuff but he did it well" which... may be the case... but you could better create a narrative about the nominee if there was a way to characterize Saint Mark's approach to diplomacy was connected to his other work. If region-building is the theme of the resolution, maybe include something in here about cultural work done in building/sustaining these FA connections (and maybe move the Osi/TWP Prom and Balder event clause here?)

Giovanniland wrote:spearheading the détente with The South Pacific to reduce years-long tensions and promote a friendlier relation;

What did this accomplish/where did it go/why was it good?

Giovanniland wrote:rejuvenating the Ministry of Foreign Affairs by boosting diplomat numbers, improving the monthly reports used to keep the region aware of public foreign happenings, and authoring guides for ambassadors on how to conduct themselves and interact with their assigned regions;

This is an area we could perhaps milk it for more region-building language/focus

Giovanniland wrote:working behind the scenes to seek an end to the conflict between Lazarus, Osiris, and The Pacific, during which the latter two were treatied allies of TWP, by contacting their leaders and promoting peaceful diplomacy;

If you're not going to be able to go through and explain what happened in these talks (which is understandable) then maybe slim down the clause a bit -- details like how many of the parties were TWP allies at the time or that it was done "by contacting their leaders" are not particularly helpful.


Regarding all these comments on the FA clause: I've emphasized the cultural part of foreign relations, also moved the Osiris/Balder events into it, and for the NPO/Lazarus/Osiris I deleted some of the previous details and instead tried to focus on NPO, where I think this was an important step into re-establishing relations after Halo's delegacy. As for the TSP détente it did accomplish the goal of reducing tensions, nowadays I admit we don't have the best relation either but I believe it's way more friendlier than before.

HumanSanity wrote:
Giovanniland wrote:their still-ongoing term as Chancellor of the University, in which they encourage new nations to enroll, welcome them, and help the classes happen smoothly, in order to fulfill the University's goal of creating new generations of regional leaders;

Are there examples of how they've created new generations of regional leaders? Universities in NS, in my experience, are a bit eh. So I want to be sold that TWP's actually works and that it works because of Saint Mark.

Well, their actions that helped create new regional leaders are pretty much there, I'm not really sure how to make it more specific. But I've included examples of people who enrolled in it and are currently Regional Officers.

HumanSanity wrote:
Giovanniland wrote:being the first Guru of Diplomacy, and in this position starting Karma's foreign relations, guiding diplomats to represent it abroad, and negotiating the treaty with Caer Sidi to further the friendship between the signatories;

I think you can shave down characters here.

Giovanniland wrote:recruiting many nations to the region and encouraging them to complete the Path of Enlightenment, in which a nation must conclude a task known as "bodhi" and be approved by the Sages to participate in The Sangha, Karma’s legislative body;

Could this clause be combined with the one about Karma lore?

As for the Karma clauses, I've adopted both of our suggestions - as part of the greater effort of making the proposal have less lists, they are now divided into one clause for Karma foreign affairs and another for the lore & integration.
Last edited by Giovanniland on Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Giovanniland » Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:24 am

Tentatively putting this on last call, hopefully it attracts some more comments. I've also fixed some minor errors that I caught myself, such as grammar and spelling ones.
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Postby The Python » Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:32 pm

Looks good, while TWP is... TWP, as well as Rahl ew, the nominee seems commendable.
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Postby Team Lennox » Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:38 am

Looks good on first glance but here are some things to improve"

such as writing of the Etiquette of the Hall


Should be "Such as writing the etiquette of the hall" or Such as the writing of the etiquette of the hall.[/box]
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Postby Giovanniland » Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:59 am

Thank you, I must've missed that when reordering the clauses. Fixed now.
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Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:04 am

Late to this I'm sorry, but I do have some points to raise.

Giovanniland wrote:The Security Council,

Recognizing The Holy Principality of Saint Mark (Saint Mark) as a nation that has gone above and beyond in terms of region- and community-building;

Unnecessary hyphen after "region".
Giovanniland wrote:Celebrating Saint Mark's actions that strengthened the government of the West Pacific (TWP), such as writing the Etiquette of the Hall of Nations that established the functions and procedures of the Hall of Nations as the body composed of all TWP citizens, and instituting weekly meetings for the regional Cabinet to discuss recent happenings and check the progress of plans as a way to ensure accountability;

Why does this stand out as being commendable? To me it's just management of the Government, something numerous other nations have done.
Giovanniland wrote:Identifying new nation integration to be an important aspect of region-building, and lauding Saint Mark's contributions to TWP in this area, for example their creation of The West Pacific Master Dispatch as the modern hub for guides, foreign updates, and other resources to be published with a layout allowing important information to be easily found; and their still-ongoing term as Chancellor of the University, in which they encourage new nations to enroll and help the classes happen smoothly, actions that have fulfilled so far the goal of creating new generations of regional leaders, such as Teralyon and United Adaikes;

This is better, this is something meatier. However, the writing's not quite right - maybe start "Lauding St Mark's identification of new nation integration as an important aspect....." and take it from there.

Giovanniland wrote:Praising Saint Mark's cultural and community-focused approach to foreign relations, in which they not only aided TWP's community by rejuvenating the Ministry of Foreign Affairs through the boost of diplomat numbers, improvement of monthly reports used to keep the region aware of public foreign happenings, and authorship of guides for ambassadors on how to conduct themselves and develop relations within the community of their assigned regions; but also improved relationships between TWP and:
  • Osiris and Balder, via the creation of activities to celebrate the treaties with said regions, respectively the West Osi High School Prom and Dragons of the Frozen Sea events;
  • Lazarus, via the negotiation of the Treaty of Fùhuó, that replaced the Chol Covenant after a large period of Lazarene instability and demonstrated the interest of both regions to maintain an active cultural bond;
  • The South Pacific, via the spearheading of a détente with the laudable intent of reducing years-long tensions between the two large Feeders, that has since resulted in a friendlier relation despite notorious governmental differences;
  • The Pacific (TP), via the work behind the scenes to promote peaceful diplomacy between them, Lazarus, and Osiris to end their interregional conflict, paving the way for a treaty between TWP and TP to be re-established after Saint Mark's delegacy;

This is good - a list of solid achievements.

Giovanniland wrote:Applauding Saint Mark's additions to TWP culture, such as their authorship of articles and edition of publications for The West Pacifican from 2017 to 2019, laying the foundations for the eventual revamp and renaming of the regional newspaper into The Western Post during 2020; their creation of the yearly Festival of the Perfections event for the showcase of art, poetry, and writing from nations across the multiverse; and their role in establishing and promoting a platform for TWP nations' representatives to handle situations of international importance, report on national happenings and publish information about their lore;

All good.

Giovanniland wrote:Noticing that Saint Mark's region-building contributions extend to other regions like Edlhus, which they founded via Marcarius Halohin as an unique region focused on lineage relationships between nations and built it by writing the governing documents known as The Edicts of Edlhus and The Code of Comport; and The Sasquatch Republic, where they helped run traditions such as Thankful Thursday and Best Week Ever to spur activity in the regional message board via Bukwas;

Respecting that Saint Mark's satellite state of Pyo Karma helped shape a thriving community with around 150 World Assembly nations in Karma, by developing the regional lore together with Rigels Light to make Karma stand out from other regions in order to attract more nations, and encouraging residents to complete the Path of Enlightenment, in which a nation must conclude a task known as "bodhi" and be approved by the Sages to participate in Karma’s legislative body called the Sangha;

Further respecting that Saint Mark's approach to foreign relations is also present in Karma, where as the first Guru of Diplomacy they started Karma's foreign relations, guided diplomats to represent it abroad, and negotiated the friendship treaty with Caer Sidi;

Concluding that Saint Mark's contributions have created a kind and caring environment in several regions, making them a better place for their residents;

Hereby commends The Holy Principality of Saint Mark.

A well put together description of their work outside of TWP.

I have some concerns that the second clause is a little weak, but the rest looks good.
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Postby Giovanniland » Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:07 pm

Thank you for your comments BBD! I've addressed them below.

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:Late to this I'm sorry, but I do have some points to raise.

Giovanniland wrote:The Security Council,

Recognizing The Holy Principality of Saint Mark (Saint Mark) as a nation that has gone above and beyond in terms of region- and community-building;

Unnecessary hyphen after "region".

Thank you, this is now fixed.

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:
Giovanniland wrote:Celebrating Saint Mark's actions that strengthened the government of the West Pacific (TWP), such as writing the Etiquette of the Hall of Nations that established the functions and procedures of the Hall of Nations as the body composed of all TWP citizens, and instituting weekly meetings for the regional Cabinet to discuss recent happenings and check the progress of plans as a way to ensure accountability;

Why does this stand out as being commendable? To me it's just management of the Government, something numerous other nations have done.

That's a fair point, though the reason I included these two actions is that they were both 1) an innovation to TWP at the time, and 2) something that still lasts to the present day and has a significant impact on the community. I've tried to make that more clear in the clause.

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:
Giovanniland wrote:Identifying new nation integration to be an important aspect of region-building, and lauding Saint Mark's contributions to TWP in this area, for example their creation of The West Pacific Master Dispatch as the modern hub for guides, foreign updates, and other resources to be published with a layout allowing important information to be easily found; and their still-ongoing term as Chancellor of the University, in which they encourage new nations to enroll and help the classes happen smoothly, actions that have fulfilled so far the goal of creating new generations of regional leaders, such as Teralyon and United Adaikes;

This is better, this is something meatier. However, the writing's not quite right - maybe start "Lauding St Mark's identification of new nation integration as an important aspect....." and take it from there.

Thanks, this clause has been amended as well. Though not quite as you suggested: I feel like "Lauding Saint Mark's identification..." sounds quite weird, as multiple other people across NationStates did focus on new nation integration before, and that would make it sound Halo was the first ever person to do that. I did, though, make the start of the clause smoother.

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:
Giovanniland wrote:Noticing that Saint Mark's region-building contributions extend to other regions like Edlhus, which they founded via Marcarius Halohin as an unique region focused on lineage relationships between nations and built it by writing the governing documents known as The Edicts of Edlhus and The Code of Comport; and The Sasquatch Republic, where they helped run traditions such as Thankful Thursday and Best Week Ever to spur activity in the regional message board via Bukwas;

Respecting that Saint Mark's satellite state of Pyo Karma helped shape a thriving community with around 150 World Assembly nations in Karma, by developing the regional lore together with Rigels Light to make Karma stand out from other regions in order to attract more nations, and encouraging residents to complete the Path of Enlightenment, in which a nation must conclude a task known as "bodhi" and be approved by the Sages to participate in Karma’s legislative body called the Sangha;

Further respecting that Saint Mark's approach to foreign relations is also present in Karma, where as the first Guru of Diplomacy they started Karma's foreign relations, guided diplomats to represent it abroad, and negotiated the friendship treaty with Caer Sidi;

Concluding that Saint Mark's contributions have created a kind and caring environment in several regions, making them a better place for their residents;

Hereby commends The Holy Principality of Saint Mark.

A well put together description of their work outside of TWP.

I have some concerns that the second clause is a little weak, but the rest looks good.

If it helps regarding the second clause, I researched some more about Halo's contributions in Karma and the sources confirmed that Halo took an active role in the process of helping new players through Karma's Path of Enlightenment, so that after researching I then felt that just "encouraging" didn't really convey that. I've amended the clause to make Halo's role in that process more obvious, i.e. actively maintaining the tasks that a new resident of Karma needs to complete the Path of Enlightenment.
Last edited by Giovanniland on Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:06 am

Latest draft looks good Gio. Obviously full support. :)
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Postby Giovanniland » Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:55 am

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:Latest draft looks good Gio. Obviously full support. :)

Thank you BBD :)

Any other comments from anyone else?
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Postby Team Lennox » Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:31 am

Giovanniland wrote:
Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:Latest draft looks good Gio. Obviously full support. :)

Thank you BBD :)

Any other comments from anyone else?

No. Just submit.
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Postby The Unified Missourtama States » Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:38 am

Nice. Notes:

Firstly, I'd like to see the POP accord talked about, people have a hard time saying no if you bring up "the children" or something.
Recognizing The Holy Principality of Saint Mark (Saint Mark) as a nation that has gone above and beyond in terms of region and community-building;

"Gone above and beyond" reminds me of a report card for a kindergartner, I recommend using something else, perhaps "been exemplary" (but hopefully something better than that, too).
Lauding Saint Mark's prioritizing of new nation integration as an important aspect of region-building in TWP, via the creation of The West Pacific Master Dispatch as the modern hub for guides, foreign updates, and other resources to be published with a layout allowing important information to be easily found;

Creating a nation is not commendable, nor is the idea of a regional nation innovative in this context as The West Pacific Master Dispatch was certainly not the first regional nation, checking in my region I see that South Pacific has a regional nation about six months older that does all the same things. Unless you can come up with more concrete and unique effects of the region's dispatch hub, I would like to see this clause removed.
and their still-ongoing term as Chancellor of the University,

When a compound modifier comes after a noun, they should not be hyphenated.
Praising Saint Mark's cultural and community-focused approach to foreign relations, in which they not only aided TWP's community by rejuvenating the Ministry of Foreign Affairs through the boost of diplomat numbers, improvement of monthly reports used to keep the region aware of public foreign happenings, and authorship of guides for ambassadors on how to conduct themselves and develop relations within the community of their assigned regions; but also improved relationships between TWP and:

The idea in this part is great and conveys a good idea for the commendation, you have just used way too many words, cut out the filler here.
and helping to maintain the activity of the "bodhis", tasks that compose Karma's Path of Enlightenment, in which a resident nation must conclude a bodhi and be approved by the Sages to participate in Karma’s legislative body called the Sangha;

I'm still not quite sure what a bodhis is.

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Postby HumanSanity » Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:17 am

Another round of writing feedback before you submit:
Giovanniland wrote:The Security Council,

Recognizing The Holy Principality of Saint Mark (Saint Mark) as a nation that has gone above and beyond in terms of region and community-building;

I both agree with TUMS' comment about "above and beyond" and think "region and community-building" could be changed to "the building of regional communities". The way you have it phrased currently, region- and community-building can be (although are not always) two different things, but my impression of the testimony of Saint Mark's region-mates is that they believe his contributions serve to unite the two.

Giovanniland wrote:Lauding Saint Mark's prioritizing of new nation integration as an important aspect of region-building in TWP, via the creation of The West Pacific Master Dispatch as the modern hub for guides, foreign updates, and other resources to be published with a layout allowing important information to be easily found;

I agree with TUMS that this needs some help, but I do think it can and should be included. TWP's Dispatches are some of the best organized that I see, although aren't as good as plenty of other regions in graphics quality. That level of organization, especially if it originated in Halo's custodianship, is noteworthy.

Giovanniland wrote:and their still-ongoing term as Chancellor of the University, in which they encourage new nations to enroll and help the classes happen smoothly, actions that have fulfilled so far the goal of creating new generations of regional leaders, such as Teralyon and United Adaikes;

I guess, and I realize how this part of the clause evolved based on my previous comment (so me revising my feedback now is likely a little irritating, which I'm entirely willing to admit), that to me it is less important who was trained by the University (in fact, I somewhat agree with the criticism of listing specific mentor-mentee relationships that's been expressed about previous drafts) but rather how. What content and classes does the University host to train regional leaders?

Giovanniland wrote:Lazarus, via the negotiation of the Treaty of Fùhuó, that replaced the Chol Covenant after a large period of Lazarene instability and demonstrated the interest of both regions to maintain an active cultural bond;

I may be wrong, but I feel like given the context of Lazarene instability prior to this treaty, something more significant could be said about it beyond "demonstrated interest in a cultural bond".

Giovanniland wrote:The Pacific (TP), via the work behind the scenes to promote peaceful diplomacy between them, Lazarus, and Osiris to end their interregional conflict, paving the way for a treaty between TWP and TP to be re-established after Saint Mark's delegacy;[/list]

To my knowledge, Lazarus and the NPO are still in a state of war, and this clause implies the conflict has ended, so some rephrasing may be in order.

Giovanniland wrote:Noticing that Saint Mark's region-building contributions extend to other regions like Edlhus, which they founded via Marcarius Halohin as an unique region focused on lineage relationships between nations and built it by writing the governing documents known as The Edicts of Edlhus and The Code of Comport; and The Sasquatch Republic, where they helped run traditions such as Thankful Thursday and Best Week Ever to spur activity in the regional message board via Bukwas;

I reiterate my idea that this clause doesn't do a whole lot, although this version is better. Either, more space should be given to each of these regions or you should consolidate to one, because right now I'm left with questions for both regions. For Edlhus, what made it unique (beyond its emphasis on families)? For TSR, what makes these traditions different from any other cultural event/why are they lasting traditions? For both, why are these regions actually important?
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Postby Giovanniland » Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:06 pm

Team Lennox wrote:
Giovanniland wrote:Thank you BBD :)

Any other comments from anyone else?

No. Just submit.

It is nice that you have no more comments, though I don't want to rush the proposal so I plan to having it stay on last call for a while (probably until the middle of the next week if no major changes are made).

The draft has been edited to address the suggestions by TUMS and HS, although not all were taken so I will comment here:

The Unified Missourtama States wrote:Firstly, I'd like to see the POP accord talked about, people have a hard time saying no if you bring up "the children" or something.

While I agree that the POP Accord is something laudable, due to the fact player protection is of utmost importance in online communities especially when dealing with minors, the intent of the treaty makes it nearly impossible to talk about it in an IC way and still convey the same meaning. We can't mention the full name because talking about nations as "players" is illegal, and if I added something about the protection of children, then it'd sound like Halo wanted to protect minors within WA member-states, which is clearly not the case here. Unfortunately, I think the best way forward for the proposal is to not mention the POP Accord, given that any mention wouldn't really help the case for commendation and would instead possibly confuse the readers when it comes to vote.

The Unified Missourtama States wrote:
Recognizing The Holy Principality of Saint Mark (Saint Mark) as a nation that has gone above and beyond in terms of region and community-building;

"Gone above and beyond" reminds me of a report card for a kindergartner, I recommend using something else, perhaps "been exemplary" (but hopefully something better than that, too).
HumanSanity wrote:Another round of writing feedback before you submit:
Giovanniland wrote:The Security Council,

Recognizing The Holy Principality of Saint Mark (Saint Mark) as a nation that has gone above and beyond in terms of region and community-building;

I both agree with TUMS' comment about "above and beyond" and think "region and community-building" could be changed to "the building of regional communities". The way you have it phrased currently, region- and community-building can be (although are not always) two different things, but my impression of the testimony of Saint Mark's region-mates is that they believe his contributions serve to unite the two.

Both of those suggestions have been taken, with the introduction clause now reading as "...as a nation that has gone beyond the call of duty in the building of regional communities".

The Unified Missourtama States wrote:
Lauding Saint Mark's prioritizing of new nation integration as an important aspect of region-building in TWP, via the creation of The West Pacific Master Dispatch as the modern hub for guides, foreign updates, and other resources to be published with a layout allowing important information to be easily found;

Creating a nation is not commendable, nor is the idea of a regional nation innovative in this context as The West Pacific Master Dispatch was certainly not the first regional nation, checking in my region I see that South Pacific has a regional nation about six months older that does all the same things. Unless you can come up with more concrete and unique effects of the region's dispatch hub, I would like to see this clause removed.
HumanSanity wrote:
Giovanniland wrote:Lauding Saint Mark's prioritizing of new nation integration as an important aspect of region-building in TWP, via the creation of The West Pacific Master Dispatch as the modern hub for guides, foreign updates, and other resources to be published with a layout allowing important information to be easily found;

I agree with TUMS that this needs some help, but I do think it can and should be included. TWP's Dispatches are some of the best organized that I see, although aren't as good as plenty of other regions in graphics quality. That level of organization, especially if it originated in Halo's custodianship, is noteworthy.

Of course creating a nation is not commendable, nor did I say that Halo's idea of The West Pacific Master Dispatch was innovative, but HS does make a good point here about organization. The foundations of the dispatch hub and its important dispatches (new player introductions, government information, etc) have been there since the project's launch by Halo and others during Halo's delegacy, with later additions (cultural events, puns, cards, etc) easily adapted into the existing models and added to the main dispatch that conveniently displays important links.

The Unified Missourtama States wrote:
and their still-ongoing term as Chancellor of the University,

When a compound modifier comes after a noun, they should not be hyphenated.

Praising Saint Mark's cultural and community-focused approach to foreign relations, in which they not only aided TWP's community by rejuvenating the Ministry of Foreign Affairs through the boost of diplomat numbers, improvement of monthly reports used to keep the region aware of public foreign happenings, and authorship of guides for ambassadors on how to conduct themselves and develop relations within the community of their assigned regions; but also improved relationships between TWP and:

The idea in this part is great and conveys a good idea for the commendation, you have just used way too many words, cut out the filler here.

Thanks, these two have been fixed.

The Unified Missourtama States wrote:
and helping to maintain the activity of the "bodhis", tasks that compose Karma's Path of Enlightenment, in which a resident nation must conclude a bodhi and be approved by the Sages to participate in Karma’s legislative body called the Sangha;

I'm still not quite sure what a bodhis is.

Well, the bodhi is the IC name for this special task a nation must complete, I believe it was created with this name so as to fit with the rest of Karma's lore. You raise a good point though: perhaps I should simply refer to it as a task so that voters don't get confused by the name when it comes to vote.

HumanSanity wrote:
Giovanniland wrote:and their still-ongoing term as Chancellor of the University, in which they encourage new nations to enroll and help the classes happen smoothly, actions that have fulfilled so far the goal of creating new generations of regional leaders, such as Teralyon and United Adaikes;

I guess, and I realize how this part of the clause evolved based on my previous comment (so me revising my feedback now is likely a little irritating, which I'm entirely willing to admit), that to me it is less important who was trained by the University (in fact, I somewhat agree with the criticism of listing specific mentor-mentee relationships that's been expressed about previous drafts) but rather how. What content and classes does the University host to train regional leaders?

Ah, I see where I may have misinterpreted your previous suggestion now. UTWP (the University) essentially organizes several courses or modules about each ministry, in which nations not only learn about but also actively participate in the tasks that full ministry staff usually do. So for World Assembly they may work on strategies to get better endorsement retention for the Delegate, while for Foreign Affairs they may have to research about the history of our relations with other regions, and learn how best to interact with different regional communities. The end goal is getting students to get a taste of each ministry and see which one suits them better so they later join those chosen ministries as full staff, and eventually rise through the ranks to become new regional leaders. I've tried to sum that up in a single sentence, but feel free to comment if that was not really what you wanted to see there.

HumanSanity wrote:
Giovanniland wrote:Lazarus, via the negotiation of the Treaty of Fùhuó, that replaced the Chol Covenant after a large period of Lazarene instability and demonstrated the interest of both regions to maintain an active cultural bond;

I may be wrong, but I feel like given the context of Lazarene instability prior to this treaty, something more significant could be said about it beyond "demonstrated interest in a cultural bond".

Well, the content of the treaty also mentions mutual defense, military cooperation and diplomatic cooperation besides cultural activities, so I've highlighted those other aspects of the treaty in the clause: not sure if there is much more to be mentioned about it.

HumanSanity wrote:
Giovanniland wrote:The Pacific (TP), via the work behind the scenes to promote peaceful diplomacy between them, Lazarus, and Osiris to end their interregional conflict, paving the way for a treaty between TWP and TP to be re-established after Saint Mark's delegacy;[/list]

To my knowledge, Lazarus and the NPO are still in a state of war, and this clause implies the conflict has ended, so some rephrasing may be in order.

Thanks for noting that, I've removed the part of "end[ing] their interregional conflict" but the rest still stands.

HumanSanity wrote:
Giovanniland wrote:Noticing that Saint Mark's region-building contributions extend to other regions like Edlhus, which they founded via Marcarius Halohin as an unique region focused on lineage relationships between nations and built it by writing the governing documents known as The Edicts of Edlhus and The Code of Comport; and The Sasquatch Republic, where they helped run traditions such as Thankful Thursday and Best Week Ever to spur activity in the regional message board via Bukwas;

I reiterate my idea that this clause doesn't do a whole lot, although this version is better. Either, more space should be given to each of these regions or you should consolidate to one, because right now I'm left with questions for both regions. For Edlhus, what made it unique (beyond its emphasis on families)? For TSR, what makes these traditions different from any other cultural event/why are they lasting traditions? For both, why are these regions actually important?

Regardless of size or any other metric people may use, I'd say that nearly any region which houses a community of several players is important in some way to NS overall (so this of course excludes puppet storages and the like), so that contributions to these regions should still be praised even if they don't have as big of an impact as large regions. Though, due to size constraints, I've decided to rewrite the clause to focus on Edlhus: noting that due to the emphasis on NS families, it serves as an active way for people of these different families to casually meet and have fun with the various regional events and activities provided by the government. Since nearly all of Edlhus' residents have another region as their primary one where they focus most of their NS time, I'd say the fact that Edlhus has been reasonably active is noteworthy, as shown by examples such as Edlhus' booth in the 2020 UCR Con, that was among the most active. So I've added some detail to the Edlhus clause as to make a stronger case for Halo's region-building contributions.
Last edited by Giovanniland on Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby The Unified Missourtama States » Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:45 pm

Giovanniland wrote:While I agree that the POP Accord is something laudable, due to the fact player protection is of utmost importance in online communities. especially when dealing with minors, the intent of the treaty makes it nearly impossible to talk about it in an IC way and still convey the same meaning. We can't mention the full name because talking about nations as "players" is illegal, and if I added something about the protection of children, then it'd sound like Halo wanted to protect minors within WA member-states, which is clearly not the case here. Unfortunately, I think the best way forward for the proposal is to not mention the POP Accord, given that any mention wouldn't really help the case for commendation and would instead possibly confuse the readers when it comes to vote.

You say that as though the rest of the proposal is in character, when it really isn't; these days most proposals are forced to be "in-character" for legal reasons (I don't think this is necessarily a problem, but do look at the cards commendations, you know well we're not roleplaying as art collectors in the community). The readers should (will) understand the context, we were able to fit POP in the original resolution.
Giovanniland wrote:Of course creating a nation is not commendable, nor did I say that Halo's idea of The West Pacific Master Dispatch was innovative, but HS does make a good point here about organization. The foundations of the dispatch hub and its important dispatches (new player introductions, government information, etc) have been there since the project's launch by Halo and others during Halo's delegacy, with later additions (cultural events, puns, cards, etc) easily adapted into the existing models and added to the main dispatch that conveniently displays important links.

But that's not something readers can know without having read the dispatches, as examples can't be linked in the proposal it will sound like puffery.
Giovanniland wrote:Well, the bodhi is the IC name for this special task a nation must complete, I believe it was created with this name so as to fit with the rest of Karma's lore. You raise a good point though: perhaps I should simply refer to it as a task so that voters don't get confused by the name when it comes to vote.

I fail to see the importance of "a task." Now I'm thinking that section should be removed.

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Postby Giovanniland » Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:52 am

The Unified Missourtama States wrote:
Giovanniland wrote:While I agree that the POP Accord is something laudable, due to the fact player protection is of utmost importance in online communities. especially when dealing with minors, the intent of the treaty makes it nearly impossible to talk about it in an IC way and still convey the same meaning. We can't mention the full name because talking about nations as "players" is illegal, and if I added something about the protection of children, then it'd sound like Halo wanted to protect minors within WA member-states, which is clearly not the case here. Unfortunately, I think the best way forward for the proposal is to not mention the POP Accord, given that any mention wouldn't really help the case for commendation and would instead possibly confuse the readers when it comes to vote.

You say that as though the rest of the proposal is in character, when it really isn't; these days most proposals are forced to be "in-character" for legal reasons (I don't think this is necessarily a problem, but do look at the cards commendations, you know well we're not roleplaying as art collectors in the community). The readers should (will) understand the context, we were able to fit POP in the original resolution.

I am well aware the proposal is in-character, but that's because we can still reliably say that a nation did a certain action (host a cultural event, improve relations of a region with another one) even though we all know it's a player who did that. The issue with adding POP into the resolution is that it relies heavily on one concept that can't be added - the concept of player - without breaking a rule. The concept of "minors playing this game" exists, it's when a NS player is legally supervised by a parent or guardian in real life. But the concept of a "minor nation" doesn't, because we don't measure nations by the same age standards as people. And while I am aware the original resolution did indeed mention POP, it mentions the accord in a way that sounds more like a GA piece of legislation about protecting children within member-states than protecting players.

The Unified Missourtama States wrote:
Giovanniland wrote:Of course creating a nation is not commendable, nor did I say that Halo's idea of The West Pacific Master Dispatch was innovative, but HS does make a good point here about organization. The foundations of the dispatch hub and its important dispatches (new player introductions, government information, etc) have been there since the project's launch by Halo and others during Halo's delegacy, with later additions (cultural events, puns, cards, etc) easily adapted into the existing models and added to the main dispatch that conveniently displays important links.

But that's not something readers can know without having read the dispatches, as examples can't be linked in the proposal it will sound like puffery.

The issue of authors being unable to link to works authored by the target nation hasn't stopped those proposals to pass, though. If a famous roleplayer who wrote several quality factbooks is commended, a voter who doesn't know about them would still need to read these factbooks if they are sceptical of what the proposal says, which is most often one or two sentences resuming the dispatch and not the entire story. Same with issues: although there is a quality standard enforced by Issues Editors in this case, a nation that wants to see the full text of the issue, beyond the small the description that an author writes, will need to check the list of issues thread in the Got Issues forum. Another example is cultural events: authors will shortly describe the event's goal and why it was important, but a voter would need to sift through event archives to determine if that's really true. I did mention examples of what those dispatches contain - "guides, foreign updates, and other resources" - but that's about it, because if I were to write a detailed description of the content of every dispatch, there wouldn't be much proposal space for anything else. I could perhaps add more examples, though, if that's what you want.

The Unified Missourtama States wrote:
Giovanniland wrote:Well, the bodhi is the IC name for this special task a nation must complete, I believe it was created with this name so as to fit with the rest of Karma's lore. You raise a good point though: perhaps I should simply refer to it as a task so that voters don't get confused by the name when it comes to vote.

I fail to see the importance of "a task." Now I'm thinking that section should be removed.

The importance here rests on the whole process (the Path of Enlightenment) that new Karma residents need to go through to participate in the regional legislature and eventually get more involved in the region. During Halo's tenure as Sage he maintained this process active, aiding it to not lose momentum so that residents wouldn't get bored and leave, but would rather complete the Path. This is yet another example of new nation integration that adds to the proposal's overall theme of region and community building.
Last edited by Giovanniland on Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:56 am, edited 4 times in total.
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