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[DRAFT] Commend The Voice of ARB (previously: Ulthar)

A chamber dedicated to the dissemination of inter-regional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.

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Tinhampton
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Postby Tinhampton » Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:40 pm

I eagerly await Commend VoARB and will offer feedback when it arrives.
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Postby Goobergunchia » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:06 am

Bormiar wrote:
Sedgistan wrote:What do you mean by "discovery of update"? The existence of the daily updates was known about since the very dawn of the game.


I forgot to write a word. That happens to me a lot.

Update order. And I also can’t aay he was the first one to discover it or that raiders (or perhaps other defender groups?) didn’t already know about it.

Still confused about this -- we knew that regions updated in a specific order for a long time, with the caveat that for a while in the Jolt era they didn't because the order was randomized for every update.
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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:33 am

Goobergunchia wrote:
Bormiar wrote:
I forgot to write a word. That happens to me a lot.

Update order. And I also can’t aay he was the first one to discover it or that raiders (or perhaps other defender groups?) didn’t already know about it.

Still confused about this -- we knew that regions updated in a specific order for a long time, with the caveat that for a while in the Jolt era they didn't because the order was randomized for every update.


I can answer this — New South Hell discovered that the Daily Dumps contained the update order. He secretly shared this information with the UDL, understanding immediately this constituted vital information for Military Gameplay. Spartz & I then took this info and pioneered triggering. I’m not actually sure though if the UDL was actually founded at the time of this revelation — I believe we may still have been in the FRA or this may been in our interim between the FRA and UDL. It was, as far as I remember, early days.

I honestly think you should consider commending Ulthar, even though the current region is unrelated to the old one — it’s unusual circumstances for a regional commendation, but the old Ulthar was a very active hub for NS Issue Gameplay between NSH, Dr George, and Mayor for Life and others. Smart dudes!!
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✯ Duty is Eternal, Justice is Imminent: UDL

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Bormiar
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Postby Bormiar » Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:58 pm

Unibot III wrote:
Goobergunchia wrote:Still confused about this -- we knew that regions updated in a specific order for a long time, with the caveat that for a while in the Jolt era they didn't because the order was randomized for every update.


I can answer this — New South Hell discovered that the Daily Dumps contained the update order. He secretly shared this information with the UDL, understanding immediately this constituted vital information for Military Gameplay. Spartz & I then took this info and pioneered triggering. I’m not actually sure though if the UDL was actually founded at the time of this revelation — I believe we may still have been in the FRA or this may been in our interim between the FRA and UDL. It was, as far as I remember, early days.


Thanks, that clarifies it. I was talking to Eluvatar about it last year, and incidentally it looks like at the time I did know that he discovered that it was contained in the daily dumps, not that it simply existed. There's actually a lot of good stuff in my conversation with Elu. He said that he and Unibot were aware of it before there was a UDL— confirming what Unibot said above.

It seems that in researching the update order, he had the idea that the daily dumps might be generated in that order (which makes perfect sense to me), and he asked Unibot, who confirmed it. This was during the refounding of Taijitu, so Unibot must've known some time before mid-2011. That seems to have been before the UDL.

Elu also mentions that some FRA defenders didn't want to use the new tool, but that he suspects some FRA defenders used it and that TBH/halcones used it. And that the UDL helped popularize certain R/D secrets.

My opinion is that while it would've been popularized at some time or another without the help of NSH, but it's also just a good example of his curiosity and proclivity to discovery and research.

Unibot III wrote:I honestly think you should consider commending Ulthar, even though the current region is unrelated to the old one — it’s unusual circumstances for a regional commendation, but the old Ulthar was a very active hub for NS Issue Gameplay between NSH, Dr George, and Mayor for Life and others. Smart dudes!!

I have considered it, and I might, but currently I'm most interested in NSH.

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Bormiar
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Postby Bormiar » Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:16 pm

Well, here's my current draft. I'm not happy with it, but I might as well give us something concrete to talk about.

The Security Council,

Recognizing the Voice of ARB to be the last remaining vassal state of New South Hell, a nation which was devoted to studying the technical nature of the universe before ascending to the right hand of our god [violet] to shape the universe,

Noting, as an example, that New South Hell’s discovery of a practical way to measure the order in which regions delegates are determined every twelve hours (called “update order”), and his subsequent reporting of said discovery to the United Defenders League, encouraged the development of triggering and therefore all of modern “raiding and defending”,

Acknowledging that nations struggle daily to address the many issues they face, and are constantly evaluated by the universe’s cryptic karmic equations analyzing the many stats that make a nation: average income, health, secularism, etc. While modern tools created through the labors of our fellow nations and gifts of god have made addressing these issues easier, at the time of New South Hell, who studied these issues religiously, comparatively little existed to evaluate a nation; for example, many of New South Hell’s studies predate automatic issue results and graphs of a nation's statistics over time,

Viewing New South Hell as pioneering in the field of issues analysis, choosing to study issues through empirical evidence, numerical data, experiment and observation,

Intrigued by New South Hell’s view of issue choices as devised of “atoms” (i.e. component parts such as “liberty”) rather than the stats they affect, which, in its own words, could be used to create “ideological programs [‘Ideobots’] that divine the best choice for an issue by analyzing the atomic structures of the options” and “charting the actual directions a nation is taking”. This approach to issue choices ended up leading to intended results for a diverse array of different Ideobots, demonstrating New South Hell’s calculating and accurate ability to predict issue results to shape a nation however it wanted,

Likening New South Hell’s so-called atoms to the world census scores which are measured as a result of issue choices. Because the atomic scores of a nation matched up so well with the world census scores, it can be concluded that New South Hell’s interpretations of issue choices were in-line with the gods who determine the effects of issue choices,

Fascinated by the other studies of New South Hell, including, but not limited to:
  • The certain issues a nation can receive as a function of how many issues it’s dealt with before and certain characteristics of the nation; as well as the rarity of certain issues,
  • Analyses of the different government types in NationStates, their relationship to each other, the attributes of each government type, the distribution of each government type, and whether the government types are properly named based on their attributes,
  • How the results of issue choices vary depending on the pre-existing statistics of the nation, and how the relationships can sometimes be unintuitive,
  • Preliminary data collection using the nascent “daily dumps”, which provide information such as government spending for all nations. An example is New South Hell’s collection of data on government spending depending on what the government type is.
  • The relationship between certain aspects of nations, such as their tax rate or government type, and the size of the nation’s public sector,
  • The effects that a nation’s history has on certain later statistics on the nation (very little, it was determined, at least at the time),

Charmed by the curiosity and experimentation of New South Hell, and New South Hell’s unique approach to NationStates,

Hereby commends New South Hell’s remaining vassal state, the Voice of ARB.


As I said, I'm not happy with this yet. The majority of New South Hell's work seems to have been in his ideological atoms, which I think are amazing because their success required New South Hell to understand the nature of issue effects very well— probably on par with an editor. However, they're not very easy to fit into an SC resolution (another than in "Intrigued" and "Likening" clause). Anyone who wants to try to improve my description of it might find these resources useful:



And here's my favorite quote from NSH:

To answer this question, you need data from a lot of NationStates nations. And, as it turns out, I am a lot of NationStates nations. To be more specific and slightly more accurate, I play about 100 nations, and keep records of all the issues I’m asked and the choices I’ve made. (I hear a significant fraction of the audience gasping “Clearly, this is someone with no life!” Could be. But if I didn’t keep busy with NationStates, I’d probably be out spraypainting trains.)
Last edited by Bormiar on Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:27 pm

Bormiar wrote:
Unibot III wrote:
I can answer this — New South Hell discovered that the Daily Dumps contained the update order. He secretly shared this information with the UDL, understanding immediately this constituted vital information for Military Gameplay. Spartz & I then took this info and pioneered triggering. I’m not actually sure though if the UDL was actually founded at the time of this revelation — I believe we may still have been in the FRA or this may been in our interim between the FRA and UDL. It was, as far as I remember, early days.


Thanks, that clarifies it. I was talking to Eluvatar about it last year, and incidentally it looks like at the time I did know that he discovered that it was contained in the daily dumps, not that it simply existed. There's actually a lot of good stuff in my conversation with Elu. He said that he and Unibot were aware of it before there was a UDL— confirming what Unibot said above.

It seems that in researching the update order, he had the idea that the daily dumps might be generated in that order (which makes perfect sense to me), and he asked Unibot, who confirmed it. This was during the refounding of Taijitu, so Unibot must've known some time before mid-2011. That seems to have been before the UDL.

Elu also mentions that some FRA defenders didn't want to use the new tool, but that he suspects some FRA defenders used it and that TBH/halcones used it. And that the UDL helped popularize certain R/D secrets.

My opinion is that while it would've been popularized at some time or another without the help of NSH, but it's also just a good example of his curiosity and proclivity to discovery and research.


I'm really not certain, but I would wager a guess that the discovery of the update order and the co-development of triggering happened just after my departure from the FRA in late May. Basically NSH sent me a telegram flagging the revelation to me and I brought it to the attention of Spartz, my then- Vice Chancellor (FRA), Chief Lieutenant (UDL), NS Twin Brother & Partner-in-Crime, we worked out ways to optimize update times with a script-assisted technique.

I distinctly remember the first time Spartz and I tried to update using a trigger-nation and it worked like lightning - we weren't expecting much - but it worked very well. Zero variance in this case. It's a shame I don't seem to have the original trigger script on file ("Uniboot.pl"), it was a prototype of FriarTuck's approx feature, like an rudimentary Estimated Times script. The file's creation date would give you sense of when NSH made the discovery.

The place where you would likely find your answer is the FRA forum archives on TapaTalk.

The UDL started accepting members on June 13 2011*, not Sept 2011 - it officially launched in September, but it operated throughout the summer.* I helped Eluvatar refound Taijitu on June 06 and we befriended one another, I pulled him into the UDL. There was an interim, a few weeks between my impeachment in the FRA and the creation of the UDL.

* I created the forum for the UDL on June 07, so I must have decided on the name a bit earlier. I recall Elu helping with the UDL forum banner. Milograd designed the UDL logo.

* UDL's first mission was defending Islam on July 11 2011 from an invader group called "The South" - in true Robin Hood fashion, the hoodlums joined the UDL and its leader, Mahaj became one of our most loyal scouts. I wrote in the UDL forum to troops (Jul 10 2011): "Please remember to refrain from posting on the regional message board in the region, it’s standard defender etiquette not to do so. Also, remember the United Defenders League has not been publically released, so do not refer to it publically or fly the UDL emblem, thanks! Sorry we couldn’t wait to deploy till after we’ve gotten training, but sometimes these things don’t work out like we’ve planned and I’m sure you’ll do fine."
Last edited by Unibot III on Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
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✯ Duty is Eternal, Justice is Imminent: UDL

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Moonfungus
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Postby Moonfungus » Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:49 pm

Bormiar wrote:encouraged the development of triggering and therefore all of modern “raiding and defending”,

A small thing, but maybe change "all of modern raiding and defending" to "all of modern military maneuvers"? It seems more IC to me personally.
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Hulldom
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Postby Hulldom » Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:59 am

Moonfungus wrote:
Bormiar wrote:encouraged the development of triggering and therefore all of modern “raiding and defending”,

A small thing, but maybe change "all of modern raiding and defending" to "all of modern military maneuvers"? It seems more IC to me personally.

And not for nothing, more concise.
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Numero Capitan
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Postby Numero Capitan » Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:16 am

Bormiar wrote:
Unibot III wrote:
I can answer this — New South Hell discovered that the Daily Dumps contained the update order. He secretly shared this information with the UDL, understanding immediately this constituted vital information for Military Gameplay. Spartz & I then took this info and pioneered triggering. I’m not actually sure though if the UDL was actually founded at the time of this revelation — I believe we may still have been in the FRA or this may been in our interim between the FRA and UDL. It was, as far as I remember, early days.


Thanks, that clarifies it. I was talking to Eluvatar about it last year, and incidentally it looks like at the time I did know that he discovered that it was contained in the daily dumps, not that it simply existed. There's actually a lot of good stuff in my conversation with Elu. He said that he and Unibot were aware of it before there was a UDL— confirming what Unibot said above.

It seems that in researching the update order, he had the idea that the daily dumps might be generated in that order (which makes perfect sense to me), and he asked Unibot, who confirmed it. This was during the refounding of Taijitu, so Unibot must've known some time before mid-2011. That seems to have been before the UDL.

Elu also mentions that some FRA defenders didn't want to use the new tool, but that he suspects some FRA defenders used it and that TBH/halcones used it. And that the UDL helped popularize certain R/D secrets.

My opinion is that while it would've been popularized at some time or another without the help of NSH, but it's also just a good example of his curiosity and proclivity to discovery and research.

Unibot III wrote:I honestly think you should consider commending Ulthar, even though the current region is unrelated to the old one — it’s unusual circumstances for a regional commendation, but the old Ulthar was a very active hub for NS Issue Gameplay between NSH, Dr George, and Mayor for Life and others. Smart dudes!!

I have considered it, and I might, but currently I'm most interested in NSH.


I have no idea what New South Hell has to do with any of this but the FRA were discussing using the data dumps and testing triggers as we know them now in March 2011 and using them on liberations by at least mid-April. Cocodian suggested utilising the data dumps to create a Spyglass-esque data sheet in May 2011 but Wopruthien had already ordered this process to be done manually in early March 2011. This process was all handled internally and was very much adaptation by Committee, there is absolutely no reference to NSH or suggestion that they suggested the data dumps on those records, but it was far from the origins of triggering.

On the raider side, Halcones was already using his own calculations on the raider side to trigger tag runs initially with the Union (November 2010) and later with the likes of Tramiar and Tikal and passing the knowledge on to Unknown/TNI and others by February 2011, but afaik this wasn't based on a full data dump/update list at the time and instead used early updating regions to estimate the speed of update and adjust their own triggers accordingly. By February 2011 they had refined this technique and were getting sub-10s estimations with regular accuracy, without needing to set specific triggers, but the FRA had already adapted its ranking system in December 2010 to reflect the fact that triggering/tagging was letting defenders get a dozen defenses in a single update. I think a lot of raider regions were using the RSS feeds for trigger times rather than the data dumps.

On the defender side, using the data dumps only let defenders fill in the gaps and create more accurate triggers, the GLA had update sheets with the update times on them in 2003 and defenders used triggers of some sort ever since then (excepting the randomized updates in 2004-06) they just weren't tied to the progression of update at a specific update. The FRA used region based triggers earlier they just weren't linked to update-specific variance in anyway.

So the Union and the FRA didn't have any input from New South Hell in their processes of developing modern-day manual triggering - very confused by this inclusion and the attempt to revise that as some UDL creation.

Some other fun notes from me taking a look back at this that may as well be recorded here:
- Wop and Chin-Chillas essentially created chasing in response to the first tag runs in mid-November 2010, with The Lepearchauns leading the way at major updates alongside Spartz/Joshua etc
- Cocodian ordered FRA Rangers to mass create additional switchers and store them in AWP on 16th November 2010 (late updating) as a precursor to jump points
Last edited by Numero Capitan on Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Goobergunchia
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Postby Goobergunchia » Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:56 am

Numero Capitan wrote:- Cocodian ordered FRA Rangers to mass create additional switchers and store them in AWP on 16th November 2010 (late updating) as a precursor to jump points


Heck, we were using designated late-updating regions as early as 2009 (and probably earlier, but I didn't update in high school due to update starting at 1:58am my time -- although old defender manuals emphasized moving through multiple regions to hide one's origin point).
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Postby Lenlyvit » Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:28 pm

Goobergunchia wrote:although old defender manuals emphasized moving through multiple regions to hide one's origin point.

TITO called that PAC Jumping and utilized it up until about a year or year-and-a-half ago :p
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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:56 pm

I have no idea what New South Hell has to do with any of this but the FRA were discussing using the data dumps and testing triggers as we know them now in March 2011 and using them on liberations by at least mid-April. Cocodian suggested utilising the data dumps to create a Spyglass-esque data sheet in May 2011 but Wopruthien had already ordered this process to be done manually in early March 2011. This process was all handled internally and was very much adaptation by Committee, there is absolutely no reference to NSH or suggestion that they suggested the data dumps on those records, but it was far from the origins of triggering.


I can explain why NSH doesn’t come up in the internal FRA discussions — NSH didn’t want to be associated with military gameplay or a particular R/D side, he passed the tidbit to me via a telegram because I was a friend and the Arch-Chancellor of the FRA and I brought it to the group. It seems likely to me I would have left his name out. Since it’s been a decade, I think he deserves his dues for recognizing a major revelation and birthing a new tactic that changed military gameplay forever.

Bear in mind, I’m at a disadvantage in that I do not have access to the FRA forum to track when conversations first happen — my guess that it was late May 2011, post-FRA, was not an attempt at UDL revisionism — I was guessing May because I didn’t remember us using triggering for the Devonitian operations but there’s a possibility I’m misremembering or we didn’t feel comfortable trialing a new technique for an important mission.

Since Spartz and I worked closely in both the FRA and the UDL, our collaboration doesn’t help me nail down a particular timeframe or organization.

However, I wouldn’t describe the creation of triggering as an FRA-wide “committee” effort at all, Spartz and I spent all night on #rangers or another IRC channel when we learned of the update order, and we trialed the first trigger run together late at night (I remember that night quite well, it was exciting — no one had ever deliberately nailed down an update time like that before). The term “triggering” and “trigger” also comes from us — we popularized it, and the references to “triggering” in 2010 are an anachronism — manually-gathered lists were no substitute for triggering. When I learned of the Daily Dump order, I also quickly built a Perl script to project update times. I am unaware of a “Spyglass”-esque spreadsheet thing in the FRA (I do recall “Pipes” being an early tool in 2011), it must have been built after my impeachment — I had already by that point built a script that estimated update times called Uniboot and another script that estimated the length of time between a trigger nation and a target region. I remember writing those scripts very shortly after NSH’s revelation, maybe even the same week. When NSH passed that information to me, I moved very quickly to put it into operation.
Last edited by Unibot III on Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:07 pm, edited 8 times in total.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
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✯ Duty is Eternal, Justice is Imminent: UDL

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Bormiar
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Postby Bormiar » Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:49 pm

Regardless of whether it was or wasn’t the result of NSH’s discovery, I a) don’t think Unibot is saying this to boost the UDL (seeing as it was pre-UDL), and b) am not arguing that NSH was the only one who discovered this, or that there weren’t other methods to get update times before the daily dumps existed (2010). It makes perfect sense that the daily dump would be generated in update order. It would probably take extra work to make it otherwise.

I was just giving an example of NSH’s experimentation in a way that might resonate more with GPers.

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Sedgistan
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Postby Sedgistan » Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:53 am

On timings etc., this thread may be relevant, in that it indicates that use of the Daily Data Dump for update timings had become widely known by March 2011. My post here indicates Unibot had made me aware of the potential for using them in this way a couple of months previously. Of course, that doesn't rule out others having worked that out previously/concurrently.

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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:16 am

Sedgistan wrote:On timings etc., this thread may be relevant, in that it indicates that use of the Daily Data Dump for update timings had become widely known by March 2011. My post here indicates Unibot had made me aware of the potential for using them in this way a couple of months previously. Of course, that doesn't rule out others having worked that out previously/concurrently.



My response in that thread is interesting, I actually don’t remember the FRA resisting triggering. I just remember NSH bringing it to my attention, then Spartz and I trialing how to implement it:

But it's not a simple magic pill, you've never defended using it, you have no clue about the strategy involved with using the list. You did everything in your power to laugh me away when I suggested using the list back a few months ago, face it, this is about protecting how gameplay used to be, not what it can be. Military Gameplay will be much better with transparency, both sides can out think one another using the list, randomness means more refreshing R5, and more hoping you get the time right. In the last thread, defenders made it clear they wanted to be able to out think raiders if they used strategy.. you guys are shooting in your feet if you take away a mechanism for more strategy.


My memory is still the haziest in NS as ever. It’s funny I can remember what room I was in when I first triggered, but not what year. :p I guess this would put NSH’s revelation at the beginning of January 2011 or December 2010.
Last edited by Unibot III on Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008 | Former Delegate of TRR | Gameplay Alignment: -18 / -13
Unibotian Factbook // Collected works // The Gameplay Alignment Test //
Proudly Authored 9 GA Res., 14 SC Res. // Commended by SC#78

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✯ Duty is Eternal, Justice is Imminent: UDL

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