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by Tinhampton » Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:40 pm
by Goobergunchia » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:06 am
Bormiar wrote:Sedgistan wrote:What do you mean by "discovery of update"? The existence of the daily updates was known about since the very dawn of the game.
I forgot to write a word. That happens to me a lot.
Update order. And I also can’t aay he was the first one to discover it or that raiders (or perhaps other defender groups?) didn’t already know about it.
by Unibot III » Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:33 am
Goobergunchia wrote:Bormiar wrote:
I forgot to write a word. That happens to me a lot.
Update order. And I also can’t aay he was the first one to discover it or that raiders (or perhaps other defender groups?) didn’t already know about it.
Still confused about this -- we knew that regions updated in a specific order for a long time, with the caveat that for a while in the Jolt era they didn't because the order was randomized for every update.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
by Bormiar » Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:58 pm
Unibot III wrote:Goobergunchia wrote:Still confused about this -- we knew that regions updated in a specific order for a long time, with the caveat that for a while in the Jolt era they didn't because the order was randomized for every update.
I can answer this — New South Hell discovered that the Daily Dumps contained the update order. He secretly shared this information with the UDL, understanding immediately this constituted vital information for Military Gameplay. Spartz & I then took this info and pioneered triggering. I’m not actually sure though if the UDL was actually founded at the time of this revelation — I believe we may still have been in the FRA or this may been in our interim between the FRA and UDL. It was, as far as I remember, early days.
Unibot III wrote:I honestly think you should consider commending Ulthar, even though the current region is unrelated to the old one — it’s unusual circumstances for a regional commendation, but the old Ulthar was a very active hub for NS Issue Gameplay between NSH, Dr George, and Mayor for Life and others. Smart dudes!!
by Bormiar » Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:16 pm
The Security Council,
Recognizing the Voice of ARB to be the last remaining vassal state of New South Hell, a nation which was devoted to studying the technical nature of the universe before ascending to the right hand of our god [violet] to shape the universe,
Noting, as an example, that New South Hell’s discovery of a practical way to measure the order in which regions delegates are determined every twelve hours (called “update order”), and his subsequent reporting of said discovery to the United Defenders League, encouraged the development of triggering and therefore all of modern “raiding and defending”,
Acknowledging that nations struggle daily to address the many issues they face, and are constantly evaluated by the universe’s cryptic karmic equations analyzing the many stats that make a nation: average income, health, secularism, etc. While modern tools created through the labors of our fellow nations and gifts of god have made addressing these issues easier, at the time of New South Hell, who studied these issues religiously, comparatively little existed to evaluate a nation; for example, many of New South Hell’s studies predate automatic issue results and graphs of a nation's statistics over time,
Viewing New South Hell as pioneering in the field of issues analysis, choosing to study issues through empirical evidence, numerical data, experiment and observation,
Intrigued by New South Hell’s view of issue choices as devised of “atoms” (i.e. component parts such as “liberty”) rather than the stats they affect, which, in its own words, could be used to create “ideological programs [‘Ideobots’] that divine the best choice for an issue by analyzing the atomic structures of the options” and “charting the actual directions a nation is taking”. This approach to issue choices ended up leading to intended results for a diverse array of different Ideobots, demonstrating New South Hell’s calculating and accurate ability to predict issue results to shape a nation however it wanted,
Likening New South Hell’s so-called atoms to the world census scores which are measured as a result of issue choices. Because the atomic scores of a nation matched up so well with the world census scores, it can be concluded that New South Hell’s interpretations of issue choices were in-line with the gods who determine the effects of issue choices,
Fascinated by the other studies of New South Hell, including, but not limited to:
- The certain issues a nation can receive as a function of how many issues it’s dealt with before and certain characteristics of the nation; as well as the rarity of certain issues,
- Analyses of the different government types in NationStates, their relationship to each other, the attributes of each government type, the distribution of each government type, and whether the government types are properly named based on their attributes,
- How the results of issue choices vary depending on the pre-existing statistics of the nation, and how the relationships can sometimes be unintuitive,
- Preliminary data collection using the nascent “daily dumps”, which provide information such as government spending for all nations. An example is New South Hell’s collection of data on government spending depending on what the government type is.
- The relationship between certain aspects of nations, such as their tax rate or government type, and the size of the nation’s public sector,
- The effects that a nation’s history has on certain later statistics on the nation (very little, it was determined, at least at the time),
Charmed by the curiosity and experimentation of New South Hell, and New South Hell’s unique approach to NationStates,
Hereby commends New South Hell’s remaining vassal state, the Voice of ARB.
To answer this question, you need data from a lot of NationStates nations. And, as it turns out, I am a lot of NationStates nations. To be more specific and slightly more accurate, I play about 100 nations, and keep records of all the issues I’m asked and the choices I’ve made. (I hear a significant fraction of the audience gasping “Clearly, this is someone with no life!” Could be. But if I didn’t keep busy with NationStates, I’d probably be out spraypainting trains.)
by Unibot III » Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:27 pm
Bormiar wrote:Unibot III wrote:
I can answer this — New South Hell discovered that the Daily Dumps contained the update order. He secretly shared this information with the UDL, understanding immediately this constituted vital information for Military Gameplay. Spartz & I then took this info and pioneered triggering. I’m not actually sure though if the UDL was actually founded at the time of this revelation — I believe we may still have been in the FRA or this may been in our interim between the FRA and UDL. It was, as far as I remember, early days.
Thanks, that clarifies it. I was talking to Eluvatar about it last year, and incidentally it looks like at the time I did know that he discovered that it was contained in the daily dumps, not that it simply existed. There's actually a lot of good stuff in my conversation with Elu. He said that he and Unibot were aware of it before there was a UDL— confirming what Unibot said above.
It seems that in researching the update order, he had the idea that the daily dumps might be generated in that order (which makes perfect sense to me), and he asked Unibot, who confirmed it. This was during the refounding of Taijitu, so Unibot must've known some time before mid-2011. That seems to have been before the UDL.
Elu also mentions that some FRA defenders didn't want to use the new tool, but that he suspects some FRA defenders used it and that TBH/halcones used it. And that the UDL helped popularize certain R/D secrets.
My opinion is that while it would've been popularized at some time or another without the help of NSH, but it's also just a good example of his curiosity and proclivity to discovery and research.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
by Moonfungus » Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:49 pm
Bormiar wrote:encouraged the development of triggering and therefore all of modern “raiding and defending”,
by Numero Capitan » Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:16 am
Bormiar wrote:Unibot III wrote:
I can answer this — New South Hell discovered that the Daily Dumps contained the update order. He secretly shared this information with the UDL, understanding immediately this constituted vital information for Military Gameplay. Spartz & I then took this info and pioneered triggering. I’m not actually sure though if the UDL was actually founded at the time of this revelation — I believe we may still have been in the FRA or this may been in our interim between the FRA and UDL. It was, as far as I remember, early days.
Thanks, that clarifies it. I was talking to Eluvatar about it last year, and incidentally it looks like at the time I did know that he discovered that it was contained in the daily dumps, not that it simply existed. There's actually a lot of good stuff in my conversation with Elu. He said that he and Unibot were aware of it before there was a UDL— confirming what Unibot said above.
It seems that in researching the update order, he had the idea that the daily dumps might be generated in that order (which makes perfect sense to me), and he asked Unibot, who confirmed it. This was during the refounding of Taijitu, so Unibot must've known some time before mid-2011. That seems to have been before the UDL.
Elu also mentions that some FRA defenders didn't want to use the new tool, but that he suspects some FRA defenders used it and that TBH/halcones used it. And that the UDL helped popularize certain R/D secrets.
My opinion is that while it would've been popularized at some time or another without the help of NSH, but it's also just a good example of his curiosity and proclivity to discovery and research.Unibot III wrote:I honestly think you should consider commending Ulthar, even though the current region is unrelated to the old one — it’s unusual circumstances for a regional commendation, but the old Ulthar was a very active hub for NS Issue Gameplay between NSH, Dr George, and Mayor for Life and others. Smart dudes!!
I have considered it, and I might, but currently I'm most interested in NSH.
by Goobergunchia » Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:56 am
Numero Capitan wrote:- Cocodian ordered FRA Rangers to mass create additional switchers and store them in AWP on 16th November 2010 (late updating) as a precursor to jump points
by Lenlyvit » Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:28 pm
Goobergunchia wrote:although old defender manuals emphasized moving through multiple regions to hide one's origin point.
by Unibot III » Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:56 pm
I have no idea what New South Hell has to do with any of this but the FRA were discussing using the data dumps and testing triggers as we know them now in March 2011 and using them on liberations by at least mid-April. Cocodian suggested utilising the data dumps to create a Spyglass-esque data sheet in May 2011 but Wopruthien had already ordered this process to be done manually in early March 2011. This process was all handled internally and was very much adaptation by Committee, there is absolutely no reference to NSH or suggestion that they suggested the data dumps on those records, but it was far from the origins of triggering.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
by Bormiar » Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:49 pm
by Sedgistan » Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:53 am
by Unibot III » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:16 am
Sedgistan wrote:On timings etc., this thread may be relevant, in that it indicates that use of the Daily Data Dump for update timings had become widely known by March 2011. My post here indicates Unibot had made me aware of the potential for using them in this way a couple of months previously. Of course, that doesn't rule out others having worked that out previously/concurrently.
But it's not a simple magic pill, you've never defended using it, you have no clue about the strategy involved with using the list. You did everything in your power to laugh me away when I suggested using the list back a few months ago, face it, this is about protecting how gameplay used to be, not what it can be. Military Gameplay will be much better with transparency, both sides can out think one another using the list, randomness means more refreshing R5, and more hoping you get the time right. In the last thread, defenders made it clear they wanted to be able to out think raiders if they used strategy.. you guys are shooting in your feet if you take away a mechanism for more strategy.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
by Bormiar » Sat May 14, 2022 8:44 pm
The Security Council,
Recognizing the Voice of ARB to be the last remaining vassal state of New South Hell, a curious nation known for its brilliance, curiosity, and fascinating pokings and proddings at the nature of the NationStates universe, and the political effects of nations addressing issues in certain ways,
Prefacing that between 2008 and 2012, New South Hell dispatched on the regional forums of Ulthar analyses on the effects of issues and the choices that nations made, providing a numerical understanding of the ideological changes to a nation due to its leader’s decisions. This was at a time when doing such studies was almost certainly much more difficult, as many modern tools for doing so did not exist; the World Census had not yet begun publishing changes to a nation’s statistics immediately after the nation had made its decisions, and they did not publish graphs of a nation’s statistics over time,
Citing, as another example of primitiveness of New South Hell’s time, the fact that the nation was surprised upon discovering the effects of nation’s choices vary depending on the state of the nation, which is well-known in modern times,
Noting that among New South Hell’s theories was the nation’s immensely successful belief that the choices made by nations could be quantified by ideological ‘atoms’ (e.g. the socialism, or liberty of a nation). By manually analyzing the issues, New South Hell was able to give weights to each choices’ effects on a nation’s ‘atoms’, and used this to chart the extremity or moderateness of a nation in certain themes,
Recognizing that through this idea, New South Hell was able to create “Ideobots”, robots which would manage a nation autonomously and provide a great deal of data from wish to study the effects of nations making choices in certain ways; as an example, through this data one could see how often some nation change their government type, and report on one’s blogs such frequency,
Believing that these studies aligns well and expands on the issues system itself and the World Census scores provided by the gods,
Mentioning that among New South Hell’s other analysis included:Finding New South Hell’s musings on Ulthar’s regional forums to also be rather funny, interesting, and well worth the read,
- Explaining how nations are served issues multiple times by separating those nations into groups based on how many issues have already been answered,
- Enhancing the descriptions of nations beyond their descriptions provided by the World Census (e.g. ‘Inoffensive Centrist Democracy’),
- Quantifying the percentages of nations of certain government types; nations with certain economic freedom, political freedom, and civil rights rankings; and nations with certain primary industries,
- Reporting on other statistics across all the NationStates nations, including the deadliest killers of the global population,
Wishing to recognize New South Hell for their creativity and insight, as well as for their ability to break from the pack and do something unique,
Hereby commends The Voice of ARB.
by Bormiar » Sat May 14, 2022 10:11 pm
by Thousand Branches » Sun May 15, 2022 2:27 pm
Bormiar wrote:Recognizing the Voice of ARB to be the last remaining vassal state of New South Hell, a curious nation known for its brilliance, curiosity, and fascinating pokings and proddings at the nature of the NationStates universe, and the political effects of nations addressing issues in certain ways,
Bormiar wrote:Prefacing that between 2008 and 2012, New South Hell dispatched on the regional forums of Ulthar analyses on the effects of issues and the choices that nations made, providing a numerical understanding of the ideological changes to a nation due to its leader’s decisions. This was at a time when doing such studies was almost certainly much more difficult, as many modern tools for doing so did not exist; the World Census had not yet begun publishing changes to a nation’s statistics immediately after the nation had made its decisions, and they did not publish graphs of a nation’s statistics over time,
Bormiar wrote:Citing, as another example of primitiveness of New South Hell’s time, the fact that the nation was surprised upon discovering the effects of nation’s choices vary depending on the state of the nation, which is well-known in modern times,
Bormiar wrote:Noting that among New South Hell’s theories was the nation’s immensely successful belief that the choices made by nations could be quantified by ideological ‘atoms’ (e.g. the socialism, or liberty of a nation). By manually analyzing the issues, New South Hell was able to give weights to each choices’ effects on a nation’s ‘atoms’, and used this to chart the extremity or moderateness of a nation in certain themes,
Bormiar wrote:Recognizing that through this idea, New South Hell was able to create “Ideobots”, robots which would manage a nation autonomously and provide a great deal of data from wish to study the effects of nations making choices in certain ways; as an example, through this data one could see how often some nation change their government type, and report on one’s blogs such frequency,
Bormiar wrote:Believing that these studies aligns well and expands on the issues system itself and the World Census scores provided by the gods,
Bormiar wrote:Mentioning that among New South Hell’s other analysis included:
Bormiar wrote:Quantifying the percentages of nations of certain government types; nations with certain economic freedom, political freedom, and civil rights rankings; and nations with certain primary industries,
Bormiar wrote:Reporting on other statistics across all the NationStates nations, including the deadliest killers of the global population,
Bormiar wrote:Finding New South Hell’s musings on Ulthar’s regional forums to also be rather funny, interesting, and well worth the read,
Bormiar wrote:Wishing to recognize New South Hell for their creativity and insight, as well as for their ability to break from the pack and do something unique,
by Bormiar » Thu May 19, 2022 7:49 pm
The Security Council,
Introducing the Voice of ARB as the last known remaining vassal state of New South Hell, a nation of intellectuals known for their brilliance, curiosity, and fascinating pokings and proddings into the nature of the NationStates universe including the political effects of nations addressing issues in certain ways;
Prefacing that, between 2008 and 2012, New South Hell's scholars and researchers dispatched many high-quality analyses to the regional forums of Ulthar, describing the tangible outcomes of choices a nation may make when faced with difficult issues. These analyses provided numerical understanding of the ideological changes a nation may see due to its' leaders' decisions, at a time when such information was certainly difficult to come across - many modern tools for doing so did not exist, including the World Census's graphs of national statistics over time and even instant updates to said statistics;
Citing, as another example of the primitive infrastructure New South Hell's scholars dealt with, the fact that they were initially shocked to discover that the effects of a decision may vary depending on the initial state of the nation, a fact that is well-known in modern times;
Applauding New South Hell's arguably most successful experimental output - the belief that choices made by nations could be understood through placement on ideological spectra, quantified via the tracking of a nation's ideological 'atoms' (e.g. "libertarianism" or "safety") across time. By painstaking manual analysis of all three-hundred-odd common dilemmas of the time - including over a thousand individual potential choices - these researchers were able to give weights to each choice's effect on a nation's atoms, using this information to chart the extremity of a nation in these themes;
Recognizing that this idea was complete enough to design and create "Ideobots", robots that would autonomously manage a puppet state according to a pre-defined spectrum of ideological atomic values. These Ideobots served as both test cases and data-gathering machines, providing excellent-quality material to refine New South Hell's ideological models of the world and publish new reports on World Census changes;
Noting that this experiment was both massive and ongoing - over the course of these four years, the ideological spectra were refined and upgraded many times, each time creating more fine-grained values and data for the Ideobots, eventually ending up with a full thirty-six ideological atoms, ranked on a scale of twenty values, and no less than fifty Ideobots managing vassal nations using these atoms - all predating the World Census's modern mechanisms for automated nation management;
Believing that these studies align so well with the system of dilemmas that we all face, and indeed, the World Census scores provided by the gods, that New South Hell was recognized as the premier analyst of their time;
Mentioning, briefly, other analyses of interest that New South Hell's researchers produced:
- Explaining the frequency at which dilemmas seem to reoccur in active nations,
- Enhancing the description of nations beyond the World Census's provisional categories,
- Quantifying the percentages of nations in the multiverse fulfilling specific criteria, including where the nations place on World Census freedom indexes and what their primary industries are,
- Reporting on other statistics provided by the World Census as they were originally released, including the deadliest killers of the global population;
Finding the musings of New South Hellian writers on Ulthar's regional forums to also be rather funny, interesting, and well worth the read for any national leader visiting Ulthar;
Wishing to recognize New South Hell for their incredible creativity and insight, as well as their ability to break from the pack and do something unique;
Hereby commends The Voice of ARB.
Co-Authored by SherpDaWerp.
Thousand Branches wrote:Bormiar wrote:Finding New South Hell’s musings on Ulthar’s regional forums to also be rather funny, interesting, and well worth the read,
Meh, doesn't really say anything. You need to introduce more character here, especially since the rest of the resolution is borderline OOC.
Thousand Branches wrote:Sure but "uniqueness" in and of itself does not make somebody a character, one has to provide what that uniqueness is. I think this is an issue that pervades your whole resolution. Idk if you knew NSH but whatever can be garnered from old ass historical posts needs to be included as best as possible. This resolution feels more like "here's how issues work" more than a commendation of an actual human being.
by SherpDaWerp » Thu May 19, 2022 10:50 pm
I've attempted to fix this by borrowing some wording from Commend Trotterdam, which talked about a nation of scholars doing research - let me know if it's worked or if I need to emphasise that a lot more.Thousand Branches wrote:This one feels a touch on the OOC side admittedly. I know that's a fine line but it feels like it dips too much into technical stuff and out of the theoretical effects of changes on your nation.
"Atoms" were what VoARB called them; we're borrowing their language here, not inventing our own - hence why that bit didn't change with the new draft.Thousand Branches wrote:Ehhhhh okay... but also is that the best you can do? Why atoms? That feels like such an awkward way to do IC.Bormiar wrote:Noting that among New South Hell’s theories was the nation’s immensely successful belief that the choices made by nations could be quantified by ideological ‘atoms’ (e.g. the socialism, or liberty of a nation). By manually analyzing the issues, New South Hell was able to give weights to each choices’ effects on a nation’s ‘atoms’, and used this to chart the extremity or moderateness of a nation in certain themes,
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