NATION

PASSWORD

[DEFEATED] Condemn Cormactopia Prime

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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:58 pm

It's a pity that both proposals to recognise Cormac's considerable accomplishments have both been shot down in flames. He definitely deserved it.

Though it does leave open a comment...

Yokiria wrote:In fact, hold on. Let me go through a list of past proposals whose targets' accomplishments are no longer worthy of recognition based on the Cormac proposals failing. Maybe that'll knock some sense into the major delegates.

Commend Ramaeus
Commend Duxburian Union (Vincent Drake)
Commend Grays Harbor
Condemn North East Somerset
Condemn Pierconium
Commend Woonsocket
Commend Paffnia
Commend Bachtendekuppen
Commend Xoriet
Commend Minoa
Condemn Chan Island
Commend Helaw
Commend Knootoss
Commend Wintony

That's going back 2 years. If I go longer, I'll find more, no doubt. Everyone I listed above deserves what they have. I'm not saying they don't. But, based on Cormac not being deserving... neither are they.


It's a bit silly of you to just list off everyone, and would like to point out that the realm where I got my condemnation was in a very different world from Cormac's valuable contributions. What programmers call a 'category error'. So I do protest being on this list.

Cormactopia Prime wrote:
Yokiria wrote:In fact, hold on. Let me go through a list of past proposals whose targets' accomplishments are no longer worthy of recognition

Ah, the difference though is that those folks are -- or at least were at the time of passage -- popular. That's really all this is, the in-crowd backpatting other members of the in-crowd. It has no meaning at all, and the people who receive these commendations and condemnations aren't even the most accomplished players. In fact, many of them are extremely mediocre, and their mediocrity is why they've remained socially popular and get these badges. Many of the most accomplished players have been controversial, and thus they have neither a commendation nor a condemnation because the people who don't like them don't want to reward them with recognition. Depriving me, and others like me, of a commendation or condemnation is basically just the petty flailing of the mediocre, pleased that in this one instance they are able to beat those of us who have routinely been superior to them in every other game context.

Personally, I don't need a badge to know I'm better at this game than these people. I've known it for years. They know it too, it's why they hate me.


And this is outright unfair. I have authored more issues than anybody who isn't/wasn't an issue editor. Hardly calls for that line. :(
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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SherpDaWerp
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Postby SherpDaWerp » Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:58 pm

Yokiria wrote:In fact, hold on. Let me go through a list of past proposals whose targets' accomplishments are no longer worthy of recognition based on the Cormac proposals failing. Maybe that'll knock some sense into the major delegates.

I went through that list myself... Some of them don't meet the bar of Cormac's achievements but most do. The thing is, some achievements are measured objectively (# GA resolutions, # SC resolutions, # Issues, creation of tools) and some things are measured subjectively (contribution to regions, defending, raiding).

Most of those recipients received their commendations/condemnations on objective grounds. Minoa authored 8 GA resolutions, 1 issue, and literally created NSIndex. Knootoss authored 6 GA Resolutions. Ramaeus was 3x Delegate of TEP, plus other positions, plus a 6-time SC author. Grays Harbor authored 3 GA Resolutions, but they demonstrated activity and willingness to help such that they're now a member of GenSec.

In Cormac's commend, he did the following.
  • 3x Delegate of Osiris, plus other positions.
  • Contribution to Thalassia/Pacifica
  • 5x Authorship (of which only 2 stand today, but that's kinda how liberations go, so that's not particularly important)
  • He isn't a fascist (whoo) and he isn't homophobic (whoo)
That's ultimately pretty similar to Ramaeus's contributions. Delegacy of a GCR, authorship, contributions to inter-regional politics.

Sure, Ramaeus's passed, but that commend doesn't have to also outweigh a ton of bad stuff. Because the goal was for him to get both, each one has to be way more than enough, because the bad stuff detracts from the good and vice versa.

It's ultimately unfair for every single person on that list that you've dismissed their contributions out-of-hand. Comparing C&C resolutions will always be comparing apples and oranges, because everyone's scenario is different. You can't objectively say that "Delegacy of a GCR for a period of 1 month = authoring 1 GA resolution" or make any sort of comparative statement, because each and every aspect of this game is different from another. Politics & GP =/= GA Authorship =/= SC Authorship =/= Issue Authorship =/= Cards =/= RP =/= Issues.

And on that note, I see Condemn Koem Kab or Commend Kindjal weren't mentioned on that list. Do you honestly believe that Koem Kab is more worthy of his Condemn than Chan Island, or Minoa's Commend is worse than Kindjal's?
Last edited by SherpDaWerp on Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Yokiria
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Postby Yokiria » Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:59 pm

Chan Island wrote:It's a bit silly of you to just list off everyone

It would be silly of me to just list off everyone. The thing is, I didn't just list off everyone. I excluded those that have objectively done more than Cormac, like Sev, Guy, BT, etc.

SherpDaWerp wrote:That's ultimately pretty similar to Ramaeus's contributions.

Cormac and Ram's contributions to NS are not "pretty similar".

SherpDaWerp wrote:And on that note, I see Condemn Koem Kab or Commend Kindjal weren't mentioned on that list. Do you honestly believe that Koem Kab is more worthy of his Condemn than Chan Island, or Minoa's Commend is worse than Kindjal's?


I didn't mention Koem Kab or Kindjal because they dominated the game in areas of the game Cormac hasn't even touched. Roleplay, issues answering, etc.
Last edited by Yokiria on Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Gorundu
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Postby Gorundu » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:01 am

Yokiria wrote:
SherpDaWerp wrote:That's ultimately pretty similar to Ramaeus's contributions.

Cormac and Ram's contributions to NS are not "pretty similar".

The way they're written they sound similar. As I said for the commend, the quality of the proposals aren't ideal.
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Yokiria
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Postby Yokiria » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:10 am

You know, I really respect those that have outright stated "it's Cormac" as the reason they didn't support Jakker's proposals, instead of passing the blame to other aspects such as Jakker's proposal-writing skill in order to feign some sort of professionalism.
Last edited by Yokiria on Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:12 am, edited 3 times in total.
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SherpDaWerp
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Postby SherpDaWerp » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:18 am

Yokiria wrote:I didn't mention Koem Kab or Kindjal because they dominated the game in areas of the game Cormac hasn't even touched. Roleplay, issues answering, etc.

Cormac hasn't touched GA Authorship or Issues Authorship either, yet Chan Island, Minoa, Knootoss and GH made the list. Your point? Or are you saying you judged these resolutions to not be on Cormac's level by ignoring the GA/Issues that they wrote?

Gorundu wrote:
Yokiria wrote:Cormac and Ram's contributions to NS are not "pretty similar".

The way they're written they sound similar. As I said for the commend, the quality of the proposals aren't ideal.

^ I don't do GP and I had pretty much never heard of Cormac outside these two proposals. From my perspective (which is likely shared by many voters), they're pretty similar. If there's more stuff to add, it should have been added.
Last edited by SherpDaWerp on Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Yokiria
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Postby Yokiria » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:35 am

SherpDaWerp wrote:
Yokiria wrote:I didn't mention Koem Kab or Kindjal because they dominated the game in areas of the game Cormac hasn't even touched. Roleplay, issues answering, etc.

Cormac hasn't touched GA Authorship or Issues Authorship either, yet Chan Island, Minoa, Knootoss and GH made the list.

Their resolutions mentioned more than that, thus I could compare them.

SherpDaWerp wrote:Or are you saying you judged these resolutions to not be on Cormac's level by ignoring the GA/Issues that they wrote?

Maybe I'm just tired, but... this question doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. You're asking me if I'm saying that I judged the resolutions to no longer be passable by ignoring parts of the resolutions? No, I'm not saying that's how I did that, and I didn't judge them by doing that. :blink:
Last edited by Yokiria on Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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SherpDaWerp
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Postby SherpDaWerp » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:46 am

Yokiria wrote:
SherpDaWerp wrote:Or are you saying you judged these resolutions to not be on Cormac's level by ignoring the GA/Issues that they wrote?
Maybe I'm just tired, but... this question doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. You're asking me if I'm saying that I judged the resolutions to no longer be passable by ignoring parts of the resolutions? No, I'm not saying that's how I did that, and I didn't judge them by doing that. :blink:

Apologies, I could barely get it to make sense in my own head. My logic was
Minoa's commend includes regionbuilding and GA Authorship.
Yokira didn't mention KK or Kindjal or others because they did stuff that Cormac didn't do
Therefore Yokira ignored Minoa's GA Authorship in judging their commend.

The point I was trying to make was that I don't see how you can judge Minoa's C&C lower than Cormac's when Minoa did stuff that Cormac hasn't gone anywhere near.
Last edited by SherpDaWerp on Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:53 am

Yokiria wrote:
SherpDaWerp wrote:Cormac hasn't touched GA Authorship or Issues Authorship either, yet Chan Island, Minoa, Knootoss and GH made the list.

Their resolutions mentioned more than that, thus I could compare them.

SherpDaWerp wrote:Or are you saying you judged these resolutions to not be on Cormac's level by ignoring the GA/Issues that they wrote?

Maybe I'm just tired, but... this question doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. You're asking me if I'm saying that I judged the resolutions to no longer be passable by ignoring parts of the resolutions? No, I'm not saying that's how I did that, and I didn't judge them by doing that. :blink:


So you're saying that my resolution is not worthy if Cormac's doesn't pass based off only 7 lines in a far longer condemnation, which majority (22) dealt with issue authorship, a field which Cormac has not touched and where I objectively dominate in. By your own logic with Koem Kab and Kindjal, I shouldn't be on that list then, but no, because there's a little bit of flavour added describing early raiding exploits, it's no longer as worthy.

Minoa's the bigger one here though. Are you saying that creating entirety of NS index is not worth commending if Cormac isn't worth that? Really?

And yes, that is exactly what Sherpa is asking you, because that's exactly what you've done.
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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Postby Gorundu » Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:28 am

Yokiria wrote:You know, I really respect those that have outright stated "it's Cormac" as the reason they didn't support Jakker's proposals, instead of passing the blame to other aspects such as Jakker's proposal-writing skill in order to feign some sort of professionalism.

It seems people can't quite grasp the concept that TNP isn't a homogenous hive-mind where everyone has the exact same opinion.
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Postby Cosmosplosion » Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:49 am

Gorundu wrote:It seems people can't quite grasp the concept that TNP isn't a homogenous hive-mind where everyone has the exact same opinion.

Almost like we all have our own individual reasons for coming to the conclusions we have.
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Prydania
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Postby Prydania » Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:49 am

The Church of Satan wrote:Cormac isn't blacklisted either so that (still awful) campaign of yours doesn't even remotely apply. He's just a stubborn bastard (honestly meant as a term of endearment) that does what he wants, when he wants absolutely anywhere he wants.

Well not everywhere ;)
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Flanderlion
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Postby Flanderlion » Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:17 am

Yokiria wrote:
Chan Island wrote:It's a bit silly of you to just list off everyone

It would be silly of me to just list off everyone. The thing is, I didn't just list off everyone. I excluded those that have objectively done more than Cormac, like Sev, Guy, BT, etc.

'Objectively' - disagree. No offense to Sev, I like him, but I think Cormac's done more, and your original list had several players who'd done more over their time than Cormac (Ivan/possibly NES etc.) Cormac is polarising, but I personally think he deserves recognition from the SC.
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Postby Aclion » Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:47 am

SherpDaWerp wrote:
Yokiria wrote:I didn't mention Koem Kab or Kindjal because they dominated the game in areas of the game Cormac hasn't even touched. Roleplay, issues answering, etc.

Cormac hasn't touched GA Authorship or Issues Authorship either, yet Chan Island, Minoa, Knootoss and GH made the list. Your point? Or are you saying you judged these resolutions to not be on Cormac's level by ignoring the GA/Issues that they wrote?

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Postby Jakker City » Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:37 am

While I understand why the conversation has turned into where Cormac's accomplishments stack up among current C&C holders, I'm not sure if it is the most productive conversation. Rather than diminishing the work of others, it probably makes the most sense to focus time and energy on promoting Cormac's.

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Fauxia
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Postby Fauxia » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:22 am

SherpDaWerp wrote:
Yokiria wrote:Maybe I'm just tired, but... this question doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. You're asking me if I'm saying that I judged the resolutions to no longer be passable by ignoring parts of the resolutions? No, I'm not saying that's how I did that, and I didn't judge them by doing that. :blink:

Apologies, I could barely get it to make sense in my own head. My logic was
Minoa's commend includes regionbuilding and GA Authorship.
Yokira didn't mention KK or Kindjal or others because they did stuff that Cormac didn't do
Therefore Yokira ignored Minoa's GA Authorship in judging their commend.

The point I was trying to make was that I don't see how you can judge Minoa's C&C lower than Cormac's when Minoa did stuff that Cormac hasn't gone anywhere near.

What it seems like Yokiria did was ignore any non-Gameplay contributions on C&C’d "gameplayers", which is of course problematic, considering Chan Island, as he said, could be commended/condemned entirely based on his body of work in issues.
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Postby The Notorious Mad Jack » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:40 am

Someone's personal conduct should be taken into account when deciding if they should be recognised for their in-game achievements. Ignoring that would be silly in my opinion and whilst Cormac's in-game achievements are probably worthy of recognition - the way he interacts with people disqualifies him. The outburst that got him banned here shouldn't be anything surprising to anyone who has known Cormac for any significant length of time. The petty banning of people on his way out of Thelassia shouldn't be surprising to anyone who has known Cormac for any significant length of time - he's never learnt that just because you can or might be tempted to do something that doesn't mean you should do it.

He doesn't deserve recognition by this body for these reasons.
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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:02 pm

Jakker City wrote:While I understand why the conversation has turned into where Cormac's accomplishments stack up among current C&C holders, I'm not sure if it is the most productive conversation. Rather than diminishing the work of others, it probably makes the most sense to focus time and energy on promoting Cormac's.


Alright, in the spirit of this.


Well...yeah. Cormac should get the badge and it's a tragedy he's not getting one.
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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Postby SherpDaWerp » Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:56 pm

Jakker City wrote:While I understand why the conversation has turned into where Cormac's accomplishments stack up among current C&C holders, I'm not sure if it is the most productive conversation. Rather than diminishing the work of others, it probably makes the most sense to focus time and energy on promoting Cormac's.

It's only become a debate about the worth of a C&C because Yokira insists on devaluing other C&Cs...

Once again, I'll iterate: I don't do GP. I had never heard of Cormac beyond these two proposals. I judged the nominee exclusively on the contents of the proposal and the discussion in this thread. Plenty of people said nothing bar "Support. Cormac is influential." This tells me nothing. Ok, sure he's influential. You could argue that many players are influential in their own sphere. Cormac's sphere is GP, where he is influential. Trotterdam's sphere is GI, where he is influential. r3n's sphere is cards, where he is influential. Influence doth not a C&C make.

The reasons in the proposal didn't stack up against people consistently disagreeing, most often with actual reasons rather than just "I'm against this." Everyone who chimed in against cited genuine concerns about the nominee's conduct, concerns that were proven true by the nominee's own post in this very thread. That, more than any experience with the nominee or reasoning in the thread, convinced me against. Someone who's only conduct I've seen (in this thread) has been narcissism and blatant insults.

FWIW, my voting goes like this:
  • voted for TNP to Abstain from the Commend vote here. Not that it did much good.
  • voted with my delegate Against the Commend vote (not that I'm petty, but the primary reason my WA SherpDaWerp in TNP lives in TNP is for the cards. Voting gets me cards. Therefore I always vote, rather than abstain, gameside. My 1 vote wasn't going to make a terrible difference anyway, and I would have abstained had my WA been on my main.)
  • missed voting for TNP to vote Against the Condemn vote (IRL be like that), and then didn't bother, given the number of votes Against anyway.
  • voted Against the Condemn vote due to Cormac's conduct in this thread
Last edited by SherpDaWerp on Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Yokiria
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Postby Yokiria » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:06 pm

SherpDaWerp wrote:It's only become a debate about the worth of a C&C because Yokira insists on devaluing other C&Cs...

The Security Council devalued them, not me.
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Re: [AT VOTE] Condemn Cormactopia Prime

Postby Yohannes » Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:11 am

I'm speaking as a NationStates Forum roleplayer. I understand the thrilling politics involved in NationStates Gameplay, and I I would like to apologise if I have unknowingly offended anyone with this forum post (that was not my intention). For transparency purposes, I will be posting my telegram here.

Dear Cormac,

Wired To → Cormactopia Prime
5 minutes ago
I just want to say that, as a NationStates nation-based RPer in the NationStates Forum, I have always been fascinated with NationStates Gameplay, and you are one of the active NS Forum Gameplayers that I have always followed, i.e. I have regularly watched your NS Forum posts history, because I love to read your latest In-Character drama and Gameplay actions on NationStates.

I hope you are well.

-The player behind the NationStates account of Yohannes

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Fauxia
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Postby Fauxia » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:01 am

Yokiria wrote:
SherpDaWerp wrote:It's only become a debate about the worth of a C&C because Yokira insists on devaluing other C&Cs...

The Security Council devalued them, not me.

Or you could stop doing the propaganda and consider that he’s also done a lot to alienate people (ICly as well as OOCly; for most factions there’s probably something serious that they would not view as commendable) from the commendation, and then voted against this condemnation himself!
Last edited by Fauxia on Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Yokiria
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Postby Yokiria » Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:29 pm

Fauxia wrote:
Yokiria wrote:The Security Council devalued them, not me.

Or you could stop doing the propaganda and consider that he’s also done a lot to alienate people (ICly as well as OOCly; for most factions there’s probably something serious that they would not view as commendable) from the commendation, and then voted against this condemnation himself!

Already considered all that.

By the way, calling something you disagree with "propaganda" isn't something you should get into a habit of doing.
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Re: Condemn Cormactopia Prime

Postby Greater Spokane » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:06 pm

As the sun sets on another vote, let's remember everything is relative. Accomplishments that warranted recognition years ago might no longer merit such today. Doesn't necessarily mean it's a slight against the recipient, just that it's no longer merit-worthy. One could consider the mere bringing something up for a vote an accomplishment in itself.

Take sporting competitions as another example; every so often a participant will be described as "deserving to win" a trophy yet comes up empty-handed. Or a political candidate described as "deserving of the position" yet loses the election. It's not personal, it might not even reflect the validity of their accomplishments leading up to the result.
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A mean old man
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Postby A mean old man » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:39 pm

"Condemn Cormactopia Prime" was defeated 10,116 votes to 3,309.
A: SC#16 - Repeal "Liberate The Security Council"
A: SC#26 - Commend The Joint Systems Alliance
A: SC#30 - Commend 10000 Islands
A: SC#37 - Condemn NAZI EUROPE
A: SC#38 - Repeal "Condemn NAZI EUROPE"
A: GA#149 - On Expiration Dates
C: SC#58 - Repeal "Commend Sedgistan"
A: SC#62 - Repeal "Condemn Swarmlandia"
C: SC#63 - Commend Ballotonia
A: SC#65 - Condemn Punk Reloaded
C: GA#163 - Repeal "Law of the Sea"
A: SC#72 - Repeal "Commend Mikeswill"
C: SC#74 - Condemn Lone Wolves United
C: SC#76 - Repeal "Condemn Thatcherton"
A: SC#81 - Repeal "Condemn Anthony Delasanta"
C: SC#83 - Condemn Automagfreek
C: SC#84 - Repeal "Liberate Islam"
C: SC#111 - Commend Krulltopia ← please forget

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