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[PASSED] Condemn Macedon

A chamber dedicated to the dissemination of inter-regional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.

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Cormactopia Prime
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Founded: Sep 21, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Cormactopia Prime » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:39 pm

Monetillia wrote:What does the esteemed delegate from 10000 Islands hope to accomplish with this? She doesn't need the commendation badges; she's already earned them. Nothing is changed by the action.

I think Kuriko has made pretty clear what she hopes to accomplish: She wants to pass a better written Condemn Macedon, befitting Macedon's historical role and legacy, and she wants to repeal SC#1. Pending passage of this proposal, she will have succeeded in the first goal, because this is far better written than SC#1 -- no offense to its author, who was writing at a time when the Security Council was brand new and standards were not yet established. Whether SC#1 ends up being repealed or not, this Condemnation doesn't duplicate it, and provides Macedon with the Condemnation it always deserved.

Now, in all seriousness, let's lay this "badge" thing to rest. As has been pointed out, yes, Kuriko does already have badges. So this isn't about that.
Last edited by Cormactopia Prime on Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Glacikaldr
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Founded: Jul 17, 2016
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Glacikaldr » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:56 pm

I support this, but I will not support a replace.
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Monetillia
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Founded: Jan 13, 2018
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Postby Monetillia » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:58 pm

Cormactopia Prime wrote:She wants to pass a better written Condemn Macedon, befitting Macedon's historical role and legacy, and she wants to repeal SC#1.
Bwahahaha! What? She honestly expects us to arbitrarily pass a rewrite because the first doesn't meet up to her expectations? It was sufficient at the time when the governing body's votes were cast. A rewrite, while generating a lot of busy-ness, accomplishes nothing else other than satiating her ego about a "real" condemnation. Regardless of the wording of a condemnation, one is essentially the same as the other, and they sound like this:

"You did something we don't like, and we're going to tell you all the reasons we don't like it. Now, shame on you!"

That's what all of them boil down to. All of that was sufficiently accomplished in the original draft, and nothing about that will be rendered untrue by repeating the process for no change.

Cormactopia Prime wrote:[...]this Condemnation doesn't duplicate it, and provides Macedon with the Condemnation it always deserved.
We absolutely assert the contrary. In throughput, this condemnation is absolutely a duplicate. Unless the delegate from 10000 Islands found a way to get Macedon punished a second time, absolutely nothing is changed, and if she did find a way to do that, there is an entirely different conversation this assembly needs to be having about double jeopardy, again, a more important conversation for our time than this.

Cormactopia Prime wrote:Now, in all seriousness, let's lay this "badge" thing to rest. As has been pointed out, yes, Kuriko does already have badges. So this isn't about that.
We mention it only because it keeps coming up, and it seems like this body enjoys being repetitive. We just wanted to show you how annoying it is when someone engages in repetition to no effect, and seeing that you are sufficiently irked by the mention, we are glad to see that you at least understand our frustration by means of empathy if not reason.
Last edited by Monetillia on Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Flanderlion
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Founded: Nov 25, 2013
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Postby Flanderlion » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:01 pm

This looks good, but against the repeal.
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CMGE
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Posts: 6
Founded: Aug 07, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby CMGE » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:14 am

What's the point of this condemnation? Macedon's been dead for at least two years.

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Ragnaria
Secretary
 
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Founded: Antiquity
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Ragnaria » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:11 am

Voting against a pointless condemnation, region is inactive.

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Kuriko
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Posts: 391
Founded: Oct 31, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Kuriko » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:19 am

Monetillia wrote:
Cormactopia Prime wrote:She wants to pass a better written Condemn Macedon, befitting Macedon's historical role and legacy, and she wants to repeal SC#1.
Bwahahaha! What? She honestly expects us to arbitrarily pass a rewrite because the first doesn't meet up to her expectations? It was sufficient at the time when the governing body's votes were cast. A rewrite, while generating a lot of busy-ness, accomplishes nothing else other than satiating her ego about a "real" condemnation. Regardless of the wording of a condemnation, one is essentially the same as the other, and they sound like this:

"You did something we don't like, and we're going to tell you all the reasons we don't like it. Now, shame on you!"

That's what all of them boil down to. All of that was sufficiently accomplished in the original draft, and nothing about that will be rendered untrue by repeating the process for no change.

Cormactopia Prime wrote:[...]this Condemnation doesn't duplicate it, and provides Macedon with the Condemnation it always deserved.
We absolutely assert the contrary. In throughput, this condemnation is absolutely a duplicate. Unless the delegate from 10000 Islands found a way to get Macedon punished a second time, absolutely nothing is changed, and if she did find a way to do that, there is an entirely different conversation this assembly needs to be having about double jeopardy, again, a more important conversation for our time than this.

Cormactopia Prime wrote:Now, in all seriousness, let's lay this "badge" thing to rest. As has been pointed out, yes, Kuriko does already have badges. So this isn't about that.
We mention it only because it keeps coming up, and it seems like this body enjoys being repetitive. We just wanted to show you how annoying it is when someone engages in repetition to no effect, and seeing that you are sufficiently irked by the mention, we are glad to see that you at least understand our frustration by means of empathy if not reason.

Moderation has already ruled that this is not a duplicate, so you saying it is does not make it so. This was originally intended as a replacement for SC#1, which is to be attempted to be repealed if this passes.

Wrapper wrote:Given that I was peripherally involved in this proposal prior to its posting, I don’t feel I should make any sort of ruling on this (nor have I marked it legal/illegal in the queue for the same reason). However, two other moderators have considered this and it appears they believe it is legal.
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Promisit Dominus
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Founded: Oct 23, 2018
New York Times Democracy

Postby Promisit Dominus » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:59 pm

Macedon hasn't had any activity in 2 years so I don't see a big impact either way...

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Banyuwangi
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Founded: Aug 14, 2014
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Banyuwangi » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:44 am

Promisit Dominus wrote:Macedon hasn't had any activity in 2 years so I don't see a big impact either way...


9 years of inactivity in this case. AFAIK: there is no evidence that the region Macedon really did invade Belgium or anything more recent. Those recent claims are false if no single evidence is found. (the author even wrote it as comment on page 1)

Two glitchy batches for one inactive puppet region: you are warned twice !

AGAINST

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Kuriko
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Founded: Oct 31, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Kuriko » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:55 am

Banyuwangi wrote:
Promisit Dominus wrote:Macedon hasn't had any activity in 2 years so I don't see a big impact either way...


9 years of inactivity in this case. AFAIK: there is no evidence that the region Macedon really did invade Belgium or anything more recent. Those recent claims are false if no single evidence is found. (the author even wrote it as comment on page 1)

Two glitchy batches for one inactive puppet region: you are warned twice !

AGAINST

There is evidence that they did all the things I put in the proposal. This is the very message I left on the TNP forum:

In my latest proposal to condemn the region of Macedon I had to dig for information, and in this case it was indeed harder than the other two commendations I wrote. I had to seek information from the NS forums, from NS region archives, and from people who were around when these things happened. The following is a list of where I gathered my evidence for this proposal, and in some instances you may need to read it yourself.

· In this Thread it talks about Macedon's raid of the region of Belgium. There is also talk of what happened to France previously, although it wasn't as prominent as the Belgium raid. They also discuss Macedonian disdain for Greeks, and how Macedon seems to have been on an ethnic cleansing streak. They also discuss Macedon's use of sleepers to impose passwords, and how liberations were introduced because of Belgium.

· In this Thread there is an announcement from Grub about TITO's interception of the France refound attempt by Macedon after griefing the region.

. In the following screenshots I spoke with my friend Frattastan, who had access to the FRA forums and their records. These are evidence for what I say about the Macedon attack on Greece. They used a sleeper, as evidenced by the native endos on the Macedon lead nation.

Image
Image



· In the following spoiler is a list of the regions Macedon still has control over, some of which they've had for almost 12 years. I found these by digging through regional rankings (which was a pain), then double checked by looking at a regional dump from 2016.

https://www.nationstates.net/region=hrvatska

https://www.nationstates.net/region=czech

https://www.nationstates.net/region=hellenic_republic

https://www.nationstates.net/region=slovak_republic

https://www.nationstates.net/region=sri_lanka

https://www.nationstates.net/region=rep ... _macedonia

https://www.nationstates.net/region=rep ... f_bulgaria

https://www.nationstates.net/region=nepal

https://www.nationstates.net/region=myanmar

https://www.nationstates.net/region=slovenia

https://www.nationstates.net/region=persia

https://www.nationstates.net/region=venezuela

https://www.nationstates.net/region=bangladesh

https://www.nationstates.net/region=mauritania

https://www.nationstates.net/region=libya

https://www.nationstates.net/region=niger

https://www.nationstates.net/region=mali

https://www.nationstates.net/region=andorra

https://www.nationstates.net/region=gibraltar

https://www.nationstates.net/region=czech_republic

https://www.nationstates.net/region=montenegro

https://www.nationstates.net/region=jordan

https://www.nationstates.net/region=burma

https://www.nationstates.net/region=fyrom

https://www.nationstates.net/region=malta

https://www.nationstates.net/region=bolivia

https://www.nationstates.net/region=ivory_coast

https://www.nationstates.net/region=bahrain

https://www.nationstates.net/region=kyrgyzstan

https://www.nationstates.net/region=turkmenistan

https://www.nationstates.net/region=macedonian

https://www.nationstates.net/region=kurdistan

https://www.nationstates.net/region=eritrea

https://www.nationstates.net/region=nigeria

https://www.nationstates.net/region=azerbaijan

https://www.nationstates.net/region=colombia

https://www.nationstates.net/region=chad

https://www.nationstates.net/region=belarus

https://www.nationstates.net/region=tajikistan

https://www.nationstates.net/region=makedonia

https://www.nationstates.net/region=hellas

https://www.nationstates.net/region=papua_new_guinea

https://www.nationstates.net/region=albania

https://www.nationstates.net/region=crna_gora

https://www.nationstates.net/region=latvia

https://www.nationstates.net/region=pakistan

https://www.nationstates.net/region=bos ... erzegovina

https://www.nationstates.net/region=hungary

https://www.nationstates.net/region=dem ... c_of_congo

https://www.nationstates.net/region=moldova

https://www.nationstates.net/region=lithuania

https://www.nationstates.net/region=tunisia

https://www.nationstates.net/region=croatia

https://www.nationstates.net/region=yemen

https://www.nationstates.net/region=macedonian_empire

https://www.nationstates.net/region=macedonia

https://www.nationstates.net/region=the ... ian_empire

https://www.nationstates.net/region=oman

https://www.nationstates.net/region=estonia

https://www.nationstates.net/region=cambodia

https://www.nationstates.net/region=bulgaria


I know that this is a long post, and am sorry for that. However, with the evidence I have provided I hope that maybe you will support my proposal. I worked hard to gather the information for my proposal, as I always do when considering a commendation or condemnation. As mentioned before, I would like to inform you that I do indeed have a Repeal drafted for SC#1 and ready for submission if this proposal is passed. Thank you for your time.

Best regards,
Kuriko
Delegate of the 10000 Islands
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Citizen of the 10000 Islands and The Rejected Realms

Former TITO Tactical Officer
Former Commander of TGW, UDSAF, and FORGE
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Kilkerneys Landing
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Founded: Mar 17, 2016
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Kilkerneys Landing » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:47 am

This region has laid dormant for almost a year, with their last message on their RMB being a year ago, I really do not see a point in putting this up to a voter for crimes that have already been settled, and if these regions listed were invaded, all regions listed are inactive and not constantly up to date, it just seems pointless to vote for this.
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Kuriko
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Founded: Oct 31, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Kuriko » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:07 pm

Condemn Macedon was passed 13,733 votes to 2,248.
Delegate of the 10000 Islands
LOVEWHOYOUARE~
Citizen of the 10000 Islands and The Rejected Realms

Former TITO Tactical Officer
Former Commander of TGW, UDSAF, and FORGE
Proud founder of The Hole To Hide In
Person behind the Regional Officer resignation button
Person behind the Offsite Chat tag and the Jump Point tag
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Bears Armed
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Founded: Jun 01, 2006
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Bears Armed » Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:00 am

Kilkerneys Landing wrote:and if these regions listed were invaded, all regions listed are inactive and not constantly up to date

They're inactive because Macedon seized them and won't let anybody do anything with them...
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The Church of Satan
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Founded: Apr 15, 2013
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby The Church of Satan » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:15 pm

I still see no point in a new condemnation for Macedon. I won't support a repeal of SC#1 even if this new condemnation passed. Why stop here though? Why not go ahead and condemn The Atlantic Alliance next? :roll:
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Frattastan IV
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Founded: Sep 02, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Frattastan IV » Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:40 am

The Church of Satan wrote:Why stop here though? Why not go ahead and condemn The Atlantic Alliance next? :roll:


That makes more sense, though, since there were no C&Cs in the time when the AA was active. :P
Many players have been commended or condemned for actions that happened before the Security Council was estabilished (2009). Among regions, Allied States of EuroIslanders was condemned six-seven years after the actions mentioned in the proposal, when it no longer was a functioning region by any means.
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