[SUBMT] Repeal "Liberate Confederation of Corrupt Dictators"

[Prydania]

Opposed.

Just say no to fascists and fascists posing as “libertarians”

Are you saying that all libertarians are fascists?

No. Just that some fascists use libertarianism as a cover. While some others find themselves drifting from libertarianism to fascism quite easily

https://medium.com/@elliotgulliverneedh ... 9747a44db9

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pos ... cee9b1c2d1

https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/08/ ... heres-why/

[Forestavia]

Are you saying that all libertarians are fascists?

No. Just that some fascists use libertarianism as a cover. While some others find themselves drifting from libertarianism to fascism quite easily

https://medium.com/@elliotgulliverneedh ... 9747a44db9

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pos ... cee9b1c2d1

https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/08/ ... heres-why/

This is interesting. I'm going to have to look into this.

[Cedoria]

If Liberations are the new Condemnations, then eventually people are going to look at the badge and think "Nazi". Realistically, few people are going to read the resolution that led to our 2012 Liberation. And we're going to be associated with Nazism in people's minds. As will Belgium, Greece, Iran etc. Why should we suffer so that one day you might get a chance to kick over someone's sandcastle?

You won't suffer, but if you're that worried about it, there are steps you can take to ensure you never need Liberation from raiders.

Also, it's hardly our fault if Game Mechanics make simple condemnations essentially useless, leaving Liberations our only option. Personally, I'd favour some new ideas for SC resolutions with a bit more distinction so that we can indicate disapproval for a region's actions without necessarily needing to give them a condemnation badge.

Until that day though, libs are what we have.

[RiderSyl]

I don't really know your reasoning behind drafting up a repeal of this, Kaboom, but it really isn't a good choice. The Liberation is passing by over a 2:1 margin, and people generally dislike fascism more than they dislike the new way Liberation proposals are being used.

[ShrewLlamaLand]

You are free to re-read my post again. I never said that the liberation badge gives them any population growth whatsoever. What I'm saying, however, is that it gives them prolonged publicity. Please try again.

Besides, what if they treat the liberation badge as an 'achievement'?

Good point. The East Pacific's delegate (Queen Yuno) seemed to have treated their liberation as an achievement, despite the fact that the resolution was written as a liberation to prevent that.

Oh damn, four days into the vote and someone finally realised why the Confederation hasn't run a WA campaign against the proposal.
No Anglorum, mummy's credit card hasn't run dry... but we'd like to thank you all very much for the week's worth of publicity, plus putting a shiny new badge on display for our region.

Despite the blatant power abuse of the Security Council in passing the original liberation proposal, the Confederation's position will be firmly against this repeal.

[Kaboomlandia]

I don't really know your reasoning behind drafting up a repeal of this, Kaboom, but it really isn't a good choice. The Liberation is passing by over a 2:1 margin, and people generally dislike fascism more than they dislike the new way Liberation proposals are being used.

Simply: because it’s a continuation of the flawed movement to use Liberations on foundered regions. That’s the one reason.

[Blood Wine]

Good point. The East Pacific's delegate (Queen Yuno) seemed to have treated their liberation as an achievement, despite the fact that the resolution was written as a liberation to prevent that.

Oh damn, four days into the vote and someone finally realised why the Confederation hasn't run a WA campaign against the proposal.
No Anglorum, mummy's credit card hasn't run dry... but we'd like to thank you all very much for the week's worth of publicity, plus putting a shiny new badge on display for our region.

Despite the blatant power abuse of the Security Council in passing the original liberation proposal, the Confederation's position will be firmly against this repeal.

You won't be this cocky when your region is destroyed <3

[ShrewLlamaLand]

Oh damn, four days into the vote and someone finally realised why the Confederation hasn't run a WA campaign against the proposal.
No Anglorum, mummy's credit card hasn't run dry... but we'd like to thank you all very much for the week's worth of publicity, plus putting a shiny new badge on display for our region.

Despite the blatant power abuse of the Security Council in passing the original liberation proposal, the Confederation's position will be firmly against this repeal.

You won't be this cocky when your region is destroyed <3

Roger that, let me know when it happens.

Oh, what's that, the largest raid ever conducted was 84 raiders, yet I'm on 87 endorsements and Jocospor has over 130? I don't know how you are at maths, but it doesn't seem likely.

[Xoriet]

Oh, what's that, the largest raid ever conducted was 84 raiders, yet I'm on 87 endorsements and Jocospor has over 130? I don't know how you are at maths, but it doesn't seem likely.

What's this? No endorsement cap in your region? Better set up an endorsement cap if you don't want to make it easy for the rest of us to just tart up in your region and have more than enough endorsements to take Joscopor's endorsement count over.

I look forward to seeing if this passes.

[ShrewLlamaLand]

Oh, what's that, the largest raid ever conducted was 84 raiders, yet I'm on 87 endorsements and Jocospor has over 130? I don't know how you are at maths, but it doesn't seem likely.

What's this? No endorsement cap in your region? Better set up an endorsement cap if you don't want to make it easy for the rest of us to just tart up in your region and have more than enough endorsements to take Joscopor's endorsement count over.

I look forward to seeing if this passes.

Oh no, if the largest raid ever conducted was repeated against the Confederation, we might just barely lose the non-executive WA delegate position for a single update.

We don't have an endorsement cap because we don't need one. If the need arises that might change, but frankly what you're suggesting sounds like more of a joke than an actual raid.

[Sonderweg]

Are you saying that all libertarians are fascists?

No. Just that some fascists use libertarianism as a cover. While some others find themselves drifting from libertarianism to fascism quite easily

https://medium.com/@elliotgulliverneedh ... 9747a44db9

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pos ... cee9b1c2d1

https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/08/ ... heres-why/

OOC: This is irrelevant to the thread topic and the game itself. This is exactly why I got sick and tired of following the target resolution forum thread. You wanna debate RL politics? Do it somewhere else. (Note to Mods: Not trying to do your jobs here, I'm just letting out some steam is all)

[Industrial-Grade Handcuffs]

We don't have an endorsement cap because we don't need one. If the need arises that might change, but frankly what you're suggesting sounds like more of a joke than an actual raid.

Oh wait, we're talking about while you still have a founder? Yeah, nobody is going to waste their time with that.

[Forestavia]

No. Just that some fascists use libertarianism as a cover. While some others find themselves drifting from libertarianism to fascism quite easily

https://medium.com/@elliotgulliverneedh ... 9747a44db9

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pos ... cee9b1c2d1

https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/08/ ... heres-why/

OOC: This is irrelevant to the thread topic and the game itself. This is exactly why I got sick and tired of following the target resolution forum thread. You wanna debate RL politics? Do it somewhere else. (Note to Mods: Not trying to do your jobs here, I'm just letting out some steam is all)

You have a point there and I agree with you. That's probably why I was having a hard time coming up with a response to Prydania's post. We're conflating real world politics with NationStates politics.

[Prydania]

OOC: This is irrelevant to the thread topic and the game itself. This is exactly why I got sick and tired of following the target resolution forum thread. You wanna debate RL politics? Do it somewhere else. (Note to Mods: Not trying to do your jobs here, I'm just letting out some steam is all)

You have a point there and I agree with you. That's probably why I was having a hard time coming up with a response to Prydania's post. We're conflating real world politics with NationStates politics.

I’m just calling a spade a spade. You see plenty of the above sort active in this thread, and the thread of the target resolution.

[Forestavia]

You have a point there and I agree with you. That's probably why I was having a hard time coming up with a response to Prydania's post. We're conflating real world politics with NationStates politics.

I’m just calling a spade a spade. You see plenty of the above sort active in this thread, and the thread of the target resolution.

Well, you don't have to worry about me. My trump suit is hearts. I'm definitely not a spade and I'm definitely not a fascist. So, what now?

The Liberation passed by an overwhelming margin. Here we are debating the possibility of a repeal. There are over 500 nations in the Confederation of Corrupt Dictators that we have set up for an invasion. Are we going to vote in favor of this repeal or not?

[Blood Wine]

Roger that, let me know when it happens.

Oh, what's that, the largest raid ever conducted was 84 raiders, yet I'm on 87 endorsements and Jocospor has over 130? I don't know how you are at maths, but it doesn't seem likely.

Current counts are irritant, the counts matter once your founder CTEs

Oh no, if the largest raid ever conducted was repeated against the Confederation, we might just barely lose the non-executive WA delegate position for a single update.

We don't have an endorsement cap because we don't need one. If the need arises that might change, but frankly what you're suggesting sounds like more of a joke than an actual raid.

Impressive lack of GP knowledge, no founder == executive WA

[ShrewLlamaLand]

We don't have an endorsement cap because we don't need one. If the need arises that might change, but frankly what you're suggesting sounds like more of a joke than an actual raid.

Oh wait, we're talking about while you still have a founder? Yeah, nobody is going to waste their time with that.

Our founder isn't going anywhere, believe it or not.

Roger that, let me know when it happens.

Oh, what's that, the largest raid ever conducted was 84 raiders, yet I'm on 87 endorsements and Jocospor has over 130? I don't know how you are at maths, but it doesn't seem likely.

Current counts are irritant, the counts matter once your founder CTEs

Oh no, if the largest raid ever conducted was repeated against the Confederation, we might just barely lose the non-executive WA delegate position for a single update.

We don't have an endorsement cap because we don't need one. If the need arises that might change, but frankly what you're suggesting sounds like more of a joke than an actual raid.

Impressive lack of GP knowledge, no founder == executive WA

Impressive lack of comprehension skills, the post I replied to specifically mentioned Jocospor's endorsement count.

I know exactly how the WA delegate becomes executive if the founder CTE, but that's not relevant to the post I replied to, nor is it really relevant at all given Jocospor has no plans to disappear.

[New Bremerton]

ABSTAIN. Again, ICly, New Bremerton supports military interventions and neoliberations of authoritarian regions as a matter of principle, but not if they are only ever enforced against authoritarian regions of a certain ideology. We believe nations and regions should be judged solely by how their people are treated, not by what ideology they happen to adhere to. Kill the double standard, and we will gladly OPPOSE this repeal.

OOCly, I was for the original liberation initially, but felt like I had to abstain due to the gradual degeneration of the original thread into RL politics and allegations of IRL fascism, which really sucked the fun out of everything. Even if the CCD is guilty of being or harboring IRL fascists, this is an issue for the mods to sort out. Using an IRL argument to justify an RP neoliberation strikes me as inappropriate and a waste of time.

Also, I did some digging around. It's possible that the allegations of IRL fascism may not be totally unfounded after all. It turns out the guy (not naming names, lest the mods come knocking) who made an apparently OOC death threat in the original thread may be a member of The Greater Nazi Empire, but he is also on the CCD's discord server protesting his innocence, insisting his remark was a joke and denying that he is any kind of Nazi. The RMB, on the other hand, is entirely IC, and I found absolutely nothing objectionable about the content of their regional factbook per se. As for embassies, it's really difficult to say which regions are legit fascist and which are RP. The CCD as a whole appears totally benign at first sight, and their telegrams (the ones I've received so far, both as New Bremerton and as Longterror, a non-WA member of the CCD) seem to display no sign of racism or bigotry whatsoever.

In conclusion, I wouldn't go as far as to accuse the CCD of being out and out IRL fascist/Nazi, although the region appears to be suffering from the same kind of problem as the RL British Labour Party at the moment. Both groups suffer from guilt by association, and they have a lot of cleaning up to do if they want to earn back the trust of both the RL and NS international community, particularly Jews. While I still don't believe that the CCD should be required to issue an IRL disclaimer by their own merit, given how innocuous, even humorous, their factbook, telegrams and RMB appear to be, the presence of certain embassies and members who appear to act in an OOC, Nazi-like manner, such as the guy mentioned earlier, may very well tip the balance the other way.

ICly, this revelation is not going to affect my main nation's vote, should this repeal proposal go to vote. That would be metagaming. Nonetheless, it is OOCly grounds enough to consider relocating my non-WA alt nation to another totalitarian region, preferably one devoid of ideology. I really, really hate the communists as well. But I'm not about to stick around in a region where some members may be prejudiced against POCs and atheists like me, and could very well want me dead, even if Jocospor and the regional government aren't IRL racist, fascist and bigoted. After all, why would a self-respecting Jew stick around in a British political party whose members denigrate them, then turn around and cry "free speech" when called out, while the leadership gives half-hearted apologies and pays lip service to diversity, but does nothing to put an end to the nonsense?

[North Saitama]

Are you saying that all libertarians are fascists?

No. Just that some fascists use libertarianism as a cover. While some others find themselves drifting from libertarianism to fascism quite easily

https://medium.com/@elliotgulliverneedh ... 9747a44db9

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pos ... cee9b1c2d1

https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/08/ ... heres-why/

Do you want to build a strawman?

The problem is that you call everybody who makes principled stands against these wanton abuses of power a Fascist, or otherwise imply being a Fascist, as if individual liberty doesn't apply to followers of certain ideologies. You hate Fascists, and let that blind you to the possibility that Libertarians may defend them to advance the cause of individual liberty, to ensure that everybody, even Fascists, are able to exercise their individual liberties as long as they don't infringe on those of others. I even noted this; if they actually do something, then bust their asses. If they are just talking, then leave them alone.

Just because we object to interventionism, and support free speech and individual liberty, and the receiving end of this interventionism are Fascists, doesn't mean that we like or agree with them; we are making a principled stand for individual liberty. We want EVERYBODY to be able to be free to exercise their individual liberties, and not have them stamped-out for one reason or another.

[Kaboomlandia]

I’m just calling a spade a spade. You see plenty of the above sort active in this thread, and the thread of the target resolution.

Well, you don't have to worry about me. My trump suit is hearts. I'm definitely not a spade and I'm definitely not a fascist. So, what now?

The Liberation passed by an overwhelming margin. Here we are debating the possibility of a repeal. There are over 500 nations in the Confederation of Corrupt Dictators that we have set up for an invasion. Are we going to vote in favor of this repeal or not?

You do not have 500 puppets in CCD set up for invasion. Nobody does. That claim’s just plain wrong.

[Cedoria]

Good point. The East Pacific's delegate (Queen Yuno) seemed to have treated their liberation as an achievement, despite the fact that the resolution was written as a liberation to prevent that.

Oh damn, four days into the vote and someone finally realised why the Confederation hasn't run a WA campaign against the proposal.
No Anglorum, mummy's credit card hasn't run dry... but we'd like to thank you all very much for the week's worth of publicity, plus putting a shiny new badge on display for our region.

Despite the blatant power abuse of the Security Council in passing the original liberation proposal, the Confederation's position will be firmly against this repeal.

Yet for all the attention, your numbers grew at about the same rate as normal. Clearly the proposal didn't help you, and in the long run, it will be to yourr detriment.

I concur with others. This proposal passed by a massive majority, and a repeal attempt will likely be doomed to failure.

[Prydania]

Just because we object to interventionism, and support free speech and individual liberty, and the receiving end of this interventionism are Fascists, doesn't mean that we like or agree with them; we are making a principled stand for individual liberty. We want EVERYBODY to be able to be free to exercise their individual liberties, and not have them stamped-out for one reason or another.

It took you this long to go "I don't like fascists" after days of saying stuff like "it's just popular morality that says fascism is wrong!"

I appreciate the progress though. Maybe some day we can move to actually doing something fascism in a proactive manner

[Hemuraile]

Just because we object to interventionism, and support free speech and individual liberty, and the receiving end of this interventionism are Fascists, doesn't mean that we like or agree with them; we are making a principled stand for individual liberty. We want EVERYBODY to be able to be free to exercise their individual liberties, and not have them stamped-out for one reason or another.

I like this quote a lot. Basically me every time I dive into the SC for these kinds of resolutions.

[Lord Dominator]

Let the repeal attempt begin

[Kaboomlandia]

Submitted