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NS Military Worldbuilding Thread No. 12

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Manokan Republic
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Postby Manokan Republic » Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:26 pm

Sevvania wrote:
Manokan Republic wrote:Should I shoot this milan missile from two miles away and take out the enemy tank

Considering the MILAN's maximum operational range is 1.2 miles, you should not, because your missile will not reach. As the missile is wire-guided, you will also have to maintain continuous line of sight to the target as you bounce your rickety Toyota across the desert at speed.

Having never operated an anti-tank launcher from the back of a pickup truck, this sounds gloriously Mad Max, but hard.

Manokan Republic wrote:should I get off within 100 yards of the tank where it's inevitable they will see me and the machine gun will open fire on me and I'm traveling 3 mph with a few rockets on foot since it's heavy, and then slowly set my weapon up to fire?

Or just pull up into cover, peek-a-boo them, then leave.

It depends on the MILAN missile used, of course, there are versions with a 3000 meter range, I.E. roughly 2 miles. I come back a week later and realize this is the thing I missed, not that bad really. Regardless the point is simple, that you would rather fire on people from a distance than get within accurate firing range of their machine guns. It is possible to engage someone out to a 1000 yards with a machine gun mounted on a tank, but it's very difficult, and at a mile or so it's extremely unlikely you'd hit the target, let alone with just a few rounds; it takes something like 25,000 rounds per enemy causality with machine guns, largely because they're fired out to long range for suppressive fire. You're not going to drop off at 100 yards with M72 laws or RPG-7's to try to tackle a T-72 tank, essentially, that is out in the field, with the risk the rounds might not even take the tank out or penetrate it's armor. It only really makes sense if it's parked or stationary in something like say, a base, when no-one is manning it or expecting an obvious attack, or if a tank is charging you and you have no other choice. Using the anti-tank missiles at a distance and mounted to a fast-moving vehicle with dozens of otherwise fairly heavy rocket launcher rounds make the most sense, and this is why IFV's are so popular, and why the Bradley, BMD, BTR, etc. all have vehicle mounted rocket launchers. It's why the U.S. mounted recoilless rifles on jeeps in WWII. Speed and mobility combined with the ability to carry heavy weapon on a vehicle make it a natural choice to use such weapons in this way. While these weapons are designed to be carried on foot if need and can be used that way, you can typically only carry a handful of rounds, such as 2-3, and the risk of return fire is so great it's considered useful only as a last resort. Furthermore lighter weight rocket launchers of the same effectiveness always tend to be far more expensive, so it's easier to carry slightly larger or heavier missiles, such as with the TOW, than go with something that is man-portable such as the javelin. The only real way to get away with using a javelin missile would be stealth, but given as it tends to give the users away, this isn't really practical except in certain environments.

The U.S. military largely predicted infantry troops using man-portable rocket launchers would take heavy casualties against enemy armor, and so it was basically conceive that this would be done sparingly. In short, it's not smart to charge a tank in a Toyota truck and then get out and slowly advanced towards it on foot. Fire and maneuver is the basis of all modern vehicle combat. Your agility is your biggest defensive advantage, it's why shoot and scoot is considered to be of such importance even for modern Tanks, and why speed and maneuverability is so heavily emphasized. The best way to avoid dying is to not got hit, obviously. You move out of the way of enemy fire, and stay on the move so they always have to aim at a moving target, that is constantly in and out of attack range; this also has the added benefit of potentially luring the enemy out in to the open, when they chase after you to get within range, thus giving you an advantage when they do.
Last edited by Manokan Republic on Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Triplebaconation
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Postby Triplebaconation » Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:25 am

Manokan Republic wrote:when no-one is manning it or expecting an obvious attack


tfw when you almost get it then drive your Toyota off a cliff of associative thinking.

This was a war in real life, not GI Joe and Cobra charging each other Saturday morning.

Again, here's what happened in the major battles of the Toyota War, which was a brief phase of the larger conflict.

In March 1987, Gaddafi orders the local commander, Col. Khalifa Haftar, to take back Fada, which had been captured by the Chadians in January. Haftar isn't crazy about the idea - he wants to fortify his base at Ouadi Doum as much as possible, then draw the Chadians to it and destroy them. He eventually assembles a force to retake Fada, but he tells them to take their time.

The Libyans have lost their Chadian allies, and they refuse to actually get out of their vehicles and do reconnaissance or any kind of route security. FANT is watching them the entire time, with their own patrols, French special forces, and American satellite imagery. The Libyans manage to travel a grand total of 80 kilometers in a day, then set up a laager just outside the pass at B'ir Kora.

Around dawn, FANT troops with Milans have dug in on the hills and fire on the Libyan T-55s. The tanks return fire ineffectually as they're taken out one by one. The Libyan commander orders the rest of the convoy to reinforce that direction and counterattack. Hassan Djamous then has the bulk of his forces attack from the opposite direction. They slam into the Libyan's rear and engage the BMPs at close range with RPGs, LAWs, and LRACs. In fact the fighting is so close some are actually killed by the blast from their own weapons.

Since the Libyans don't like to dismount, most of the casualties are infantry burnt alive in their BMPs, trying to return fire through the dumb firing ports.

Haftar sends out a relief force. For some inexplicable reason, they stop 20 kilometers from B'ir Kora and bivouac for the night. Surprisingly, Djamous hits them in the exact same way in the early morning.

For the next two days scattered groups of survivors return to Ouadi Doum. Haftar is absolutely certain the Chadians won't attack him in his stronghold, so when the Libyans see dust clouds on the horizon they assume it's more survivors and open the gates! The Chadians roar into the base at top speed (erroneously thinking this will protect them from mines, so they lose about 12 trucks including the one carrying Djamous) overwhelm the perimeter, the engage the Libyans from within the base itself.

Only a small number of Milans were provided by France. They were important because they allowed the Chadians to throw the Libyans into confusion at night due to their thermal sights. Libyans had no effective night vision. (Yes, we all know Wikipedia says T-55 and BMPs have night vision.)

The importance of the Toyotas, on the other hand, was that combined with the incompetence of the Libyans they allowed the Chadians to attack at a time and place of their choosing, not zip around sniping tanks at long range.

None of the pictures of Manokan has posted as gotchas are from the Toyota War, they're just random trucks from 30 years later that pop up when you type Toyota War into Google.

One has to wonder why these guys are carrying big bags of RPGs on their backs: https://youtu.be/2fbzyy4kG_8?t=1385
Last edited by Triplebaconation on Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:27 am, edited 8 times in total.
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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:11 am

inability to grasp basic and fundamental concepts beyond a superficial level and work within established problem boundaries

or...

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Puzikas
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Postby Puzikas » Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:47 am

How are we still on the fucking HiLux War after a whole year

Cerebral Hypoxia is no joke I understand and certainly spending too much time breathing in the sand of the Chadian desert will cause COPD or foreign Body Asperation Syndrome but come now, how many more times can we talk about the superiority of the MILAN and incomitance of the Libyan Army.

Triplebaconation wrote: (Yes, we all know Wikipedia says T-55 and BMPs have night vision.)


You already said "effective" night vision :>
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Usually waiting for Puz ;-;

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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:57 am

Puzikas wrote:How are we still on the fucking HiLux War after a whole year

Simple: Religious infatuation on the part of certain people(s).
Last edited by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary on Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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New Visayan Islands
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Postby New Visayan Islands » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:09 am

Puzikas wrote:How are we still on the fucking HiLux War after a whole year

Cerebral Hypoxia is no joke I understand and certainly spending too much time breathing in the sand of the Chadian desert will cause COPD or foreign Body Asperation Syndrome but come now, how many more times can we talk about the superiority of the MILAN and incomitance of the Libyan Army.

I'd make a joke about the deserts of Chad--let's face it, it's a joke waiting to be written--but I dunno how to make it work.
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Atlantian Dominions
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Postby Atlantian Dominions » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:13 am

Puzikas wrote:How are we still on the fucking HiLux War after a whole year

>Nooooo you can’t keep rehashing the same conflict over and over again!!!!
>haha Toyota go brrrrrrrrrrrrr



If I was looking to provide weapons to a proxy guerrilla force, a la the CIA and the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, but without the benefit of a land border for shipments, how would that most likely be done in the modern day? Assuming a reasonably competent and capable state where being totally overt isn’t feasible. Has the process of clandestine weapons delivery advanced at all since the days of the Contras? Or are intelligence agencies basically doing the same things as they were in the Cold War?
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Puzikas
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Postby Puzikas » Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:00 pm

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
Puzikas wrote:How are we still on the fucking HiLux War after a whole year

Simple: Religious infatuation on the part of certain people(s).


Only thing im infatuated with is you bb


New Visayan Islands wrote:I'd make a joke about the deserts of Chad--let's face it, it's a joke waiting to be written--but I dunno how to make it work.


The Virgin woodland vs the chad desert.

The Virgin Libya vs the Chad...Chad

It doesnt matter


Atlantian Dominions wrote:If I was looking to provide weapons to a proxy guerrilla force, a la the CIA and the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, but without the benefit of a land border for shipments, how would that most likely be done in the modern day? Assuming a reasonably competent and capable state where being totally overt isn’t feasible. Has the process of clandestine weapons delivery advanced at all since the days of the Contras? Or are intelligence agencies basically doing the same things as they were in the Cold War?


Land shipments are the best way. You literally just have to sneak it or bribe it through CBPE, or just pack it by hand across by land.
If you have a maritime border submarine smuggling a la Mexican cartels would probably work, ish, or by a regular container ship (this is how most contraband travels) and just disseminated through normal channels.
Aircraft are less than good but I mean, if youre desperate, jsut fly a small craft slow and shove it from the side of the craft.

Theyre basically doing it the same as they always have to a degree. The arms smuggling trade basically consists of money changing hands ten times and boxes of arms in disassembled bits being inspected and passed up because, weirdly, the weird square shape Kalashnikov reviewer to the layman looks like a tool and jig die for a stamping machine used to make, I dont know, fence posts, if you tell them thats what its for. The gas system and barrel look like a bipass valve for a high pressure water system or something. And then theyre all assembled by some dude who knows how to assemble them.

Image

This just looks like a lump of metal to most people, probably some tool adapter or something.
Last edited by Puzikas on Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sevvania wrote:I don't post much, but I am always here.
Usually waiting for Puz ;-;

Goodbye.

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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:08 pm

Puzikas wrote:Only thing im infatuated with is you bb

Gay.
Langenia wrote:How do you think I can mount an effective air defense than? I'd appreciate advice.

Buy F-16's. Hundreds of them. Replace the heavy SAM units with F-16 squadrons...
On the other hand you are fighting the biggest airpower on the continent so just surrender before B-52's and A-22's starts dropping Arc Lights on your capitol.
Last edited by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary on Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Vaspelia
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Postby Vaspelia » Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:25 pm

While there's no doubt that men-in-training do not deserve their insignia yet. Why some militaries do give rank insignias to their trained recruits but others do not?. What would be the reason or symbolism of that?.
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Triplebaconation
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Postby Triplebaconation » Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:41 pm

Puzikas wrote:Theyre basically doing it the same as they always have to a degree. The arms smuggling trade basically consists of money changing hands ten times and boxes of arms in disassembled bits being inspected and passed up because, weirdly, the weird square shape Kalashnikov reviewer to the layman looks like a tool and jig die for a stamping machine used to make, I dont know, fence posts, if you tell them thats what its for. The gas system and barrel look like a bipass valve for a high pressure water system or something. And then theyre all assembled by some dude who knows how to assemble them.

(Image)

This just looks like a lump of metal to most people, probably some tool adapter or something.


Does anyone actually bother with this or is it just fake end-user certificates and dealing through proxies?

If you're dealing with a major guerilla problem you've probably lost control of your borders to some extent.
Proverbs 23:9.

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Puzikas
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Postby Puzikas » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:44 pm

Triplebaconation wrote:Does anyone actually bother with this or is it just fake end-user certificates and dealing through proxies?


I mean yeah forged paperwork is easy too

If you have a severe Ghurilla problem the first thing to go is probably your import and customs enforcement officers anyways
Sevvania wrote:I don't post much, but I am always here.
Usually waiting for Puz ;-;

Goodbye.

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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:47 pm

Puzikas wrote:
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:Simple: Religious infatuation on the part of certain people(s).


Only thing im infatuated with is you bb


wow r u hitting on omstles do NOT

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
Puzikas wrote:Only thing im infatuated with is you bb

Gay.


uwu hi~

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
Langenia wrote:How do you think I can mount an effective air defense than? I'd appreciate advice.

Buy F-16's. Hundreds of them. Replace the heavy SAM units with F-16 squadrons...
On the other hand you are fighting the biggest airpower on the continent so just surrender before B-52's and A-22's starts dropping Arc Lights on your capitol.


do it again oadf

Puzikas wrote:Land shipments are the best way. You literally just have to sneak it or bribe it through CBPE, or just pack it by hand across by land.
If you have a maritime border submarine smuggling a la Mexican cartels would probably work, ish, or by a regular container ship (this is how most contraband travels) and just disseminated through normal channels.
Aircraft are less than good but I mean, if youre desperate, jsut fly a small craft slow and shove it from the side of the craft.

Theyre basically doing it the same as they always have to a degree. The arms smuggling trade basically consists of money changing hands ten times and boxes of arms in disassembled bits being inspected and passed up because, weirdly, the weird square shape Kalashnikov reviewer to the layman looks like a tool and jig die for a stamping machine used to make, I dont know, fence posts, if you tell them thats what its for. The gas system and barrel look like a bipass valve for a high pressure water system or something. And then theyre all assembled by some dude who knows how to assemble them.

(Image)

This just looks like a lump of metal to most people, probably some tool adapter or something.


i should write up how dumbla loses its african colony to a bunch of angry dutchmen smuggling stens and sterling 7.92mms tbh

but that would mean drawing pictures of 1970s and '80's guerrillas i guess otoh i really do need to do a african dummy in vegetablescale

at least it doesnt lose the east indies tho i guess it almost does when cyberpunk pol pot takes over half of THL

prolly only cos he's chinese and thais are racist af tho

i guess dumbla just takes an igbo and a thai or japanese and stnads them next to each other and then hugs the azn and is like "i always loved you more!" with tears in its eyes and the igbo guy just scoffs and wanders off to go make the wide gauge trains that galla refuses to get them for christmas

very wholesome parenting yes

it probably has more to do with the bit htat galla doesnt realyl care about africa much since there's nothing much happening there and a lot of minor basic components industries like automobile spark plug factories have been offshored to the far east already while igbo are just still a broadly resource extraction economy that galla has no interest in industrializing but frisia needs the cheap labor

cue racist svens fighting the government with groundnut tilling tractors converted from eggtanks, datsun d21s hauling catapults flinging hollowed out explosive filled watermelons, and armies of farmhands with ranch rifle mini-14s and carl gustaf smgs tangentially supported by galla

and pol pot is still so crazy not even the soviets want to back him but at least he's a cute 5' 12" anime bishi villain instead of a 5' 10" ugly bastard ntr hentai protag

Puzikas wrote:
Triplebaconation wrote:Does anyone actually bother with this or is it just fake end-user certificates and dealing through proxies?


I mean yeah forged paperwork is easy too

If you have a severe Ghurilla problem the first thing to go is probably your import and customs enforcement officers anyways


in gallaverse the soviets used to be a khaganate before like the 1870s and mao broke everything so you could call soviet-backed guerillas ghur-khans and people would think this is some esoteric bad pun on khagan guerilla

then the literal honest to god it's actually him lenin appears because the kalmyk khan borders giga sweden and so He just shows up one day and gets exiled to various germanic countries repeatedly before coming back riding a white horse and wielding a flaming sword to smite the maoists and turn them all into tractor lubricants and fertilizer or sthmng

except he lives another 20 years and completes his transition from "trotsky lite" to "kattsun playing crisis in the kremlin"

then martov takes over because lenin went senile and turns the ussr into a succdem staat like wilson's britain or idk maybe fighting maoist agrarian vanguards instead of tsarist cossacks violently mad minuting the entire crew of potemkin taught him firsthand that being too zealous can lead to unintended problems down the road or idk it mightve just made him harder about urbanizing the peasantry i guess but martov can probably flip it on its head and say if a urban factoryman cannot adapt to the countryside how can a peasant farmer do the same in the city

either way lenin puts the soviet in soviet union in gallaverse

cursed ussr betrays the revolution with every breath it takes

also sovs are probably the 3rd most powerful space faction after chinese america and retard-lah and the latter's only powerful because it's ab unch of bysy workerbijs
Last edited by Gallia- on Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:28 pm, edited 12 times in total.

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The Manticoran Empire
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Postby The Manticoran Empire » Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:31 pm

So the Forgotten Weapons youtube channel made a couple videos a couple years ago, talking about lever action rifles and the US Army. My question is what sort of impact would the adoption of lever action rifles in the years following the American Civil War have had on the US Army and, potentially, the armies of other nations?
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Postby Gallia- » Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:33 pm

Nothing because people already used lever action rifles plenty in the US Army and European ones as well?

Henry rifles didn't stop Poland from being conquered by Russia or 7th Cav from getting yeeted into the next world at Little Bighorn.
Last edited by Gallia- on Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The Manticoran Empire
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Postby The Manticoran Empire » Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:44 pm

Gallia- wrote:Nothing because people already used lever action rifles plenty in the US Army and European ones as well?

Henry rifles didn't stop Poland from being conquered by Russia or 7th Cav from getting yeeted into the next world at Little Bighorn.

7th Cavalry wasn't armed with Henry Rifles. Rather, the 7th were armed with Springfield Trapdoors. The Indian warriors, however, did have Henry and Winchester lever action rifles. The US Army never widely adopted a lever action rifle, instead electing to adopt trapdoor rifles until the Krag. Most European armies adopted either breech loaders like the Martini-Henry or bolt guns like the Mauser.

I'm not asking about wide usage by private citizens. Rather I am asking about if the US Army went with the 1860 Henry and, later, the Winchester rifles instead of adopting Springfield Trapdoors from 1865 until the 1880s.
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Postby Triplebaconation » Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:01 pm

Trapdoors replaced lever-actions.

Nothing would change.

People on a gun site have a natural inclination to think guns are more important than people. (See above)
Last edited by Triplebaconation on Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Gallia- » Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:11 pm

The Manticoran Empire wrote:
Gallia- wrote:Nothing because people already used lever action rifles plenty in the US Army and European ones as well?

Henry rifles didn't stop Poland from being conquered by Russia or 7th Cav from getting yeeted into the next world at Little Bighorn.

7th Cavalry wasn't armed with Henry Rifles. Rather, the 7th were armed with Springfield Trapdoors. The Indian warriors, however, did have Henry and Winchester lever action rifles. The US Army never widely adopted a lever action rifle, instead electing to adopt trapdoor rifles until the Krag. Most European armies adopted either breech loaders like the Martini-Henry or bolt guns like the Mauser.

I'm not asking about wide usage by private citizens. Rather I am asking about if the US Army went with the 1860 Henry and, later, the Winchester rifles instead of adopting Springfield Trapdoors from 1865 until the 1880s.


Oh so they had already advanced beyond lever actions into a better weapon.

What do you think cavalrymen were using before Trapdoors? Ta da!

Lever actions suck until Winchester 1895 and then they still kind of totally suck because bolt actions are easier and better to maintain with better rates of fire.

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Triplebaconation
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Postby Triplebaconation » Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:13 pm

Maybe Custer's dudes would have killed 90 Sioux instead of 60 or so, maybe they'd have killed 30.
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Triplebaconation
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Postby Triplebaconation » Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:18 pm

Little Big Horn is probably a bad example for conjecture about minor differences in weapons since nobody has any idea what really happened.
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Postby Gallia- » Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:21 pm

fair but my point is more lever actions were already bought, trialed, tested in combat, and rejected by the us army, so the us army "adopting" lever actions in the 1870s would be a step backwards v:

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The Manticoran Empire
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Postby The Manticoran Empire » Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:33 pm

Gallia- wrote:fair but my point is more lever actions were already bought, trialed, tested in combat, and rejected by the us army, so the us army "adopting" lever actions in the 1870s would be a step backwards v:

And what evidence do you have to suggest that a lever gun is a step backwards from a single shot trapdoor with extraction issues?
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Postby The Manticoran Empire » Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:37 pm

Gallia- wrote:lol

That isn't an answer.
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