NS Military Worldbuilding Thread No. 12

[Danternoust]

Radar is rather classified, what little I know comes from ausairpower and Dr. Strangelove. The technology to spoof radar returns and maybe even origins have existed for a long time, beyond that, I don't know. The historical incidents with the most information available on it are the Battle of the Beams from WWII and the Bekaa Valley Turkey Shoot.

[New Vihenia]

Going to dive into a field I never have wanted to before and still don't-- what are the strengths and weaknesses of different radar bands (X, L, MMW, etc.) in military applications?

For example, which types of radar bands would perform best for the aircraft detection facilities of a naval vessel?

Are there any radar bands one can effectively ignore?

I apologize if this is too vague a question, I have no clue what I'm talking about. I'm just here to name warships that don't exist after funny Spanish men.

Starting from application table would be the best place to start :



For general guidelines on application of each frequency :
-Long range detection is best at low bands (VHF,L and S) Naval application however favors L and S band mainly because it recovers quicker in event of multipath. VHF can be considered for "stealth" target tracking
-Short range fire control application is best at High band (C-X and down to mmw) As the table mention however mmw band would suffer in severe weather condition. Thus naval gunfire or missile control usually use X-band.

For naval application one might ignore HF Frequency as it's impractical on typical warship. The antenna requirement would be far too big. That's for the low band end of the matter. for high band one THz (TeraHertz) Frequency is also Impractical as not only it suffers greatly from atmosphere, there might be no power source suitable for transmitter in that band yet for typical surveillance or fire control application. So it better left at instrumentation purpose. You would better off with laser rangefinder or LIDAR when very high resolution target imaging is required.

[Almadaria]

Going to dive into a field I never have wanted to before and still don't-- what are the strengths and weaknesses of different radar bands (X, L, MMW, etc.) in military applications?

For example, which types of radar bands would perform best for the aircraft detection facilities of a naval vessel?

Are there any radar bands one can effectively ignore?

I apologize if this is too vague a question, I have no clue what I'm talking about. I'm just here to name warships that don't exist after funny Spanish men.

Starting from application table would be the best place to start :

For general guidelines on application of each frequency :
-Long range detection is best at low bands (VHF,L and S) Naval application however favors L and S band mainly because it recovers quicker in event of multipath. VHF can be considered for "stealth" target tracking
-Short range fire control application is best at High band (C-X and down to mmw) As the table mention however mmw band would suffer in severe weather condition. Thus naval gunfire or missile control usually use X-band.

For naval application one might ignore HF Frequency as it's impractical on typical warship. The antenna requirement would be far too big. That's for the low band end of the matter. for high band one THz (TeraHertz) Frequency is also Impractical as not only it suffers greatly from atmosphere, there might be no power source suitable for transmitter in that band yet for typical surveillance or fire control application. So it better left at instrumentation purpose. You would better off with laser rangefinder or LIDAR when very high resolution target imaging is required.

This is just what I wanted, thanks

[Husseinarti]

Putting the Gallic in Gallia be like.

gallic?

more like

garlic

[Gallia-]

henlo sandserb

i eat a clove of garlic a day

[Almadaria]

To decrease the effect of that radar horizon has on detecting low-altitude missiles or faraway ships, could warships stick their surface-search radar transceivers at the end of poles (or something along the same lines that just sounds smarter) to increase its altitude, thus giving the radar more range?

[Kassaran]

To decrease the effect of that radar horizon has on detecting low-altitude missiles or faraway ships, could warships stick their surface-search radar transceivers at the end of poles (or something along the same lines that just sounds smarter) to increase its altitude, thus giving the radar more range?

they already do

[Almadaria]

To decrease the effect of that radar horizon has on detecting low-altitude missiles or faraway ships, could warships stick their surface-search radar transceivers at the end of poles (or something along the same lines that just sounds smarter) to increase its altitude, thus giving the radar more range?

they already do

But taller tho

Like, could I just put it up 50 meters in the air and see everything the somalis are up to >600km away

[Kassaran]

they already do

But taller tho

Like, could I just put it up 50 meters in the air and see everything the somalis are up to >600km away

they do tho

If you're wondering why not use a taller, more thin mast, if you want to look further and resolve better returns, you need more power, more computers, more equipment... that takes a lot of strength in materials which just makes a thicker mast anyways.

[Gallia-]

they already do

But taller tho

Like, could I just put it up 50 meters in the air and see everything the somalis are up to >600km away

lol

[Austrasien]

But taller tho

Like, could I just put it up 50 meters in the air and see everything the somalis are up to >600km away

lol

I know NS earth is big but

damn

that's so flat its probably illegal

[Gallia-]

flatter than asashio l m a o

ns earth is just ice puddle or w/e

every disc is actually a frostpunk crater in the Greater Iceball

but til i can climb a tall tree and see russia from sarah palin's house

[Almadaria]

I use dumbed down formula on not-secure site

Probably where the misconception comes from

Probably need to use mental gymnastics radar horizon formula on secure site

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Give up on trying to to mount a radar 100 meters high and acquire RIM-116 and cooperative engagement capability instead.

[Gallan Systems]

I use dumbed down formula on not-secure site

Probably where the misconception comes from

Probably need to use mental gymnastics radar horizon formula on secure site

You're just doing math wrong.

The radar horizon at 50 meters is going to be about 15-16 nautical miles.

There's a reason people put radars on helicopters, and why all ships today have helicopter landing pads (and ideally hangars), even if no one has enough helicopters for every ship to have one.

[Almadaria]

Damn it, TI-84 Plus CE and www.alternatewars.com! You made a fool out of me!

[Triplebaconation]

The formula on alternatewars is fine.

[New Vihenia]

Damn it, TI-84 Plus CE and http://www.alternatewars.com! You made a fool out of me!

I wonder how did it end up 600 km. Which one you use ?

[Almadaria]

I used the "sqrt (4/3) * sqrt (2 * RadiusPlanet * HeightAntenna)", or the supposed Complex Radar Horizon. Maybe the metric ones are a bit funky.

[New Vihenia]

I used the "sqrt (4/3) * sqrt (2 * RadiusPlanet * HeightAntenna)", or the supposed Complex Radar Horizon. Maybe the metric ones are a bit funky.

Well as metric it will take input in metric. so it would be like this.

Antenna height is 50 m, while Earth's radius is 6371 km or 6371000 m (1 km is 1000 m). Then put everythng in

SQRT(4/3)*SQRT(2*6371000*50)

The result is 29145.6 m or 29.145 km.

[Almadaria]

I used the "sqrt (4/3) * sqrt (2 * RadiusPlanet * HeightAntenna)", or the supposed Complex Radar Horizon. Maybe the metric ones are a bit funky.

Well as metric it will take input in metric. so it would be like this.

Antenna height is 50 m, while Earth's radius is 6371 km or 6371000 m (1 km is 1000 m). Then put everythng in

SQRT(4/3)*SQRT(2*6371000*50)

The result is 29145.6 m or 29.145 km.

Equation said to use radius of planet in kilometers, not meters. That's where it went wrong.

[New Vihenia]

Equation said to use radius of planet in kilometers, not meters. That's where it went wrong.

I see. an inconsistent unit. You are then free to contact the site author.

If it's in km the antenna height is then should be converted to km too.

[The Corparation]

I use dumbed down formula on not-secure site

Probably where the misconception comes from

Probably need to use mental gymnastics radar horizon formula on secure site

"Secure" sites tend to employ the same dumbed down formulas for things that you'll find online for approximations. More exact formulas are also usually available publicly but they might only be found in specialized textbooks rather than online calculators. The laws of physics don't usually change when you start classifying the exact numbers being punched in. (Not that the parameters for the current equation are classified but other equations for radar stuff sometimes are).

t. Have literally used equations partially based off wikipedia at work since the explanation there was superior to the FOUO Mil-STD from work intranet.

[Danternoust]

R squared in excel means we no longer have to know as much, just measure, put in numbers, get formula to get new numbers that look okay.

Best radar craft is airship. Just have to mount a one tonne radar mast inside and even stealth would be detected.

[Purpelia]

R squared in excel means we no longer have to know as much, just measure, put in numbers, get formula to get new numbers that look okay.

Best radar craft is airship. Just have to mount a one tonne radar mast inside and even stealth would be detected.

I wonder if you could use the metal reinforcements that hold together the skin of a rigid airship as a giant radar antena. Or hell, if you could do some magic with modern materials to draw wires through the material or something to make the entire skin a radar antenna. That'd be awesome.