NATION

PASSWORD

NS Military Worldbuilding Thread No. 12

A place to put national factbooks, embassy exchanges, and other information regarding the nations of the world. [In character]

Advertisement

Remove ads

User avatar
Crookfur
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10750
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Crookfur » Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:55 pm

The Union of British North America wrote:
Crookfur wrote:Nope.

Like all the serious FAL users you would have switched to a lighter, cheaper and more accurate rotary bolt system in the 80s/90s (most likely something based on the AR-18).

Even with .280 being adopted in a FAL you would still have likely found the ammo to have been not much of an improvement over 7.62x51mm and have thus have embraced the SCHV concept. Now wither you would have used 5.56mm or something more tea flavoured like 4.85x49mm is up to you.


I wish we can like things in the Forum, but they have yet to establish that.

Ok, I'll consider doing something like an AR-18. I've entertained that previously with my nation's service rifle but went with a FAL-based weapon due to pictures that have that weapon as opposed to something based more on an AR-18, but yes a lot of countries adopted the rotary bolt system with their rifles, like Britain, Singapore, Japan and Germany. I was partial to weapons looking like the SR-80 or the SR-88. But why not a cartridge in the 6 mm range?

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you in this.

If you had adopted .280 or any of the compromise versions in the 50s you would still have it around just as we still have 7.62x51mm and x54mmR ie for machine guns and longer ranged rifles. By the late 70s interest in some kind of 6mm is cartridge pretty much died especially once the germans published the results of thier small calibre experiments which even the russians seem to have paid attention to.

The concept of a 6.x mm "optimum intermediate" doesn't really rear its head again until the aftermath of the battle of Mogadishu and folks start looking for new ideas and paying attention to certain authors/ammunition experts (like a certain Anthony Williams). Of course most of the development occurs on the basis of will it fit through an AR15 lower which does limit things and the militaries largely ignore it because they are playing with grenade launcher concepts and relegating the rifle to a secondary weapon (ie the OICW). The current trend is that a change to an 6.x mm intermediate is only going to come when a larger change in ammunition technology also arrives which seems to be the goal of the current US trials.

Edit: this is not to say that a 6mm would be totally impossible. Had you gotten a new round together and into service by the early 70s then there is every chance you might still be using it.
Last edited by Crookfur on Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Kingdom of Crookfur
Your ordinary everyday scotiodanavian freedom loving utopia!

And yes I do like big old guns, why do you ask?

User avatar
Almadaria
Attaché
 
Posts: 77
Founded: Mar 26, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Almadaria » Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:13 pm

Through some feat of OOC posturing, memetic warfare, and overly-complicated invasion plans, my nation has suddenly acquired a lot of territory, industry and population intact.

How would an island nation (say, the size of Cuba) best go about securing these new assets (say, islands the size and scope of the Bahamas, Turks and Caicos) from foreign naval aggression? In terms of ships, should my nation emphasize more on OPV's and FACs to cover the area; which, mind you, is bordering the rather salty Gran Colombia who wants those islands back? Or should more costly investments such as a handful more frigates or diesel-electric submarines be necessary to ward off the somewhat spammy and outdated navies of a modern-day monarchy?

As well as ships, would the new stretch of sea that needs defending (against rather annoying and overpowered cliche imperialist powers) justify the investment into a land-based anti-ship missile, along the lines (though not necessarily the ability) of the Chinese DF-21D or other anti-ship ballistic missiles?

User avatar
Austrasien
Minister
 
Posts: 3121
Founded: Apr 07, 2013
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Austrasien » Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:36 pm

Almadaria wrote:Through some feat of OOC posturing, memetic warfare, and overly-complicated invasion plans, my nation has suddenly acquired a lot of territory, industry and population intact.

How would an island nation (say, the size of Cuba) best go about securing these new assets (say, islands the size and scope of the Bahamas, Turks and Caicos) from foreign naval aggression? In terms of ships, should my nation emphasize more on OPV's and FACs to cover the area; which, mind you, is bordering the rather salty Gran Colombia who wants those islands back? Or should more costly investments such as a handful more frigates or diesel-electric submarines be necessary to ward off the somewhat spammy and outdated navies of a modern-day monarchy?

As well as ships, would the new stretch of sea that needs defending (against rather annoying and overpowered cliche imperialist powers) justify the investment into a land-based anti-ship missile, along the lines (though not necessarily the ability) of the Chinese DF-21D or other anti-ship ballistic missiles?


Get more fighters and maritime patrol aircraft.
The leafposter formerly known as The Kievan People

The weak crumble, are slaughtered and are erased from history while the strong survive. The strong are respected and in the end, peace is made with the strong.

User avatar
Ideal Britain
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1738
Founded: Mar 31, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Ideal Britain » Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:51 am

Which British Army unit would make the best shock troops?
An MT alt-history Britain.

Prime Minister: Sikandar Khan, CB, MP

Monarch: Queen Elizabeth II
Year: 2021

User avatar
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15183
Founded: Jun 28, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:52 am

Ideal Britain wrote:Which British Army unit would make the best shock troops?

None of them because none of them has armour.

User avatar
Austrasien
Minister
 
Posts: 3121
Founded: Apr 07, 2013
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Austrasien » Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:07 am

Ideal Britain wrote:Which British Army unit would make the best shock troops?


The ones with tanks.
The leafposter formerly known as The Kievan People

The weak crumble, are slaughtered and are erased from history while the strong survive. The strong are respected and in the end, peace is made with the strong.

User avatar
Atlantian Dominions
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 391
Founded: Sep 04, 2012
Corporate Police State

Postby Atlantian Dominions » Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:30 am

Can anyone recommend good sources of information on early 20th century (turn of the century/pre-trench-WW1) warfare, especially on the tactical level? I've been looking at the Second Boer War and the early stages of the First World War, but nothing beyond Wikipedia pages yet.

Due to a series of choices I made about the kind of nation I want to write about calamitous events, my nation is essentially at a ~1910 level of military technology and doctrine, but I don't know how to write that at a level below the commanding general.
The Confederation of Atlantian Dominions
My nation can be referred to as "the Atlantian Dominions" or "Atlantia"
Continuity currently undergoing major reconstruction - please stand by

User avatar
Champagne Socialist Sharifistan
Senator
 
Posts: 4471
Founded: Dec 08, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Champagne Socialist Sharifistan » Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:33 am

Do graduates of military-oriented private schools (e.g. with compulsory officer training corps and a military ethos) make better military officers?
A nation which partly represents my views.
Founder of the Traditionalist Military Alliance:https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=493756
The Turkish War of Independence and everything before along with 2014 modernisation are set in stone.
Everything else is subject to change

Black Lives Matter!

User avatar
West Bromwich Holme
Envoy
 
Posts: 286
Founded: Mar 12, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby West Bromwich Holme » Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:57 am

Possibly a smaller thing, but armored cars for military usage;when could these fit into an RP, and armored versions of SUVs/vans?
Formerly Astholm. I am no longer using the account.
Rebooted continuity ; March 2016

User avatar
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15183
Founded: Jun 28, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:01 am

West Bromwich Holme wrote:Possibly a smaller thing, but armored cars for military usage;when could these fit into an RP, and armored versions of SUVs/vans?

Armoured SUV's: Personal transports for Major-Generals and the like.
What's the definition for an "armoured car"?

User avatar
West Bromwich Holme
Envoy
 
Posts: 286
Founded: Mar 12, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby West Bromwich Holme » Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:11 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
West Bromwich Holme wrote:Possibly a smaller thing, but armored cars for military usage;when could these fit into an RP, and armored versions of SUVs/vans?

Armoured SUV's: Personal transports for Major-Generals and the like.
What's the definition for an "armoured car"?



Armored sedans, like how in the 1990s there were some armored BMW 7-Series and Mercedes S-Class sedans, such as at https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new- ... s-revealed

My in-universe brands Balna, Celsan and their joint ventures do produce these, as do my Chinese brands that exist in-universe in RPs (don't know how it'll make sense in an RP if there's multiple versions of China at once, but West Bromwich Holme is its own universe/canon for here, separate from some RPs, and it's branching well beyond factbooks etc.).

I've got an idea for a V6 biturbo-powered armored luxury sedan developed by a local brand of mine, but would that be more for politicians etc. than military, but as for armored military versions of 18 tonne trucks, for example, a Renault Midlum, how could that work? (Not Renault Midlum an in IC sense, the brand is different, but the principle's generally the same).
Formerly Astholm. I am no longer using the account.
Rebooted continuity ; March 2016

User avatar
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15183
Founded: Jun 28, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:13 am

West Bromwich Holme wrote:...as for armored military versions of 18 tonne trucks, for example, a Renault Midlum, how could that work? (Not Renault Midlum an in IC sense, the brand is different, but the principle's generally the same).

You would get a Tatrapan.

User avatar
West Bromwich Holme
Envoy
 
Posts: 286
Founded: Mar 12, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby West Bromwich Holme » Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:15 am

Good idea to work from there; it's given me some material to work from for GE&T. Slowly getting back into the swing of things on here after ages without using this site!
Formerly Astholm. I am no longer using the account.
Rebooted continuity ; March 2016

User avatar
Crookfur
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10750
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Crookfur » Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:07 am

You could offer appliqué or integrated armoured cab kits for tactical trucks as most military manufacturers (like MAN and oshkosh) have done since the whole MRAP thing started.

Armoured saloons/limos/SUVs are also offered by most most high end car builders (or a partner customiser) these days and military wise these would be just for officers who are operating at almost political levels and pretty much sticking around offices/ HQs in urban areas.

If they need to go out in the field they would pretty much just be using whatever protected tactical vehicle is common to the rest of the army.
The Kingdom of Crookfur
Your ordinary everyday scotiodanavian freedom loving utopia!

And yes I do like big old guns, why do you ask?

User avatar
Ideal Britain
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1738
Founded: Mar 31, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Ideal Britain » Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:19 am

What does a Major-General typically do?
I know they command a division but what does that entail?
An MT alt-history Britain.

Prime Minister: Sikandar Khan, CB, MP

Monarch: Queen Elizabeth II
Year: 2021

User avatar
West Bromwich Holme
Envoy
 
Posts: 286
Founded: Mar 12, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby West Bromwich Holme » Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:27 am

Crookfur wrote:You could offer appliqué or integrated armoured cab kits for tactical trucks as most military manufacturers (like MAN and oshkosh) have done since the whole MRAP thing started.

Armoured saloons/limos/SUVs are also offered by most most high end car builders (or a partner customiser) these days and military wise these would be just for officers who are operating at almost political levels and pretty much sticking around offices/ HQs in urban areas.

If they need to go out in the field they would pretty much just be using whatever protected tactical vehicle is common to the rest of the army.


Could an armored truck work for military usage, perhaps like this:

Image

or maybe this sort of body:

Image

Not trying to picspam here.

I'm thinking, a 7.3 or 7.4-litre diesel engine could work in this sort of thing?
Last edited by West Bromwich Holme on Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
Formerly Astholm. I am no longer using the account.
Rebooted continuity ; March 2016

User avatar
New Visayan Islands
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 5372
Founded: Jan 31, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby New Visayan Islands » Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:42 am

Ideal Britain wrote:What does a Major-General typically do?
I know they command a division but what does that entail?

Inter alia, know more of tactics than a novice in a nunnery.

(Seriously, no one thought of that?)

Gilbert and Sullivan aside, a major general in command of a division would most likely be exactly what the description says: C2 for the division in general.
Joined the ranks of Moderation in the wee hours of the morning of September 19th, AD 2020.
Formally inducted to Game Moderation in the afternoon of March 23rd, AD 2021.
My TGs are NOT for Mod Stuff.

For details on the man behind NVI, click here.

User avatar
Dayganistan
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1214
Founded: May 02, 2016
Father Knows Best State

Postby Dayganistan » Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:53 am

West Bromwich Holme wrote:
Crookfur wrote:You could offer appliqué or integrated armoured cab kits for tactical trucks as most military manufacturers (like MAN and oshkosh) have done since the whole MRAP thing started.

Armoured saloons/limos/SUVs are also offered by most most high end car builders (or a partner customiser) these days and military wise these would be just for officers who are operating at almost political levels and pretty much sticking around offices/ HQs in urban areas.

If they need to go out in the field they would pretty much just be using whatever protected tactical vehicle is common to the rest of the army.


Could an armored truck work for military usage, perhaps like this:

Image

or maybe this sort of body:

Image

Not trying to picspam here.

I'm thinking, a 7.3 or 7.4-litre diesel engine could work in this sort of thing?


I mean, if you're looking for an armoured truck things like the KAMAZ Typhoon already exist which has a troop carrier and cargo variant. The RG-33 MRAP also had a cargo variant made for USSOCOM. I don't see a reason to reinvent the wheel here when real armed forces and the defence industry have thought of the idea of armoured utility vehicles and have provided commerical, off the shelf options.

User avatar
West Bromwich Holme
Envoy
 
Posts: 286
Founded: Mar 12, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby West Bromwich Holme » Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:59 am

Dayganistan wrote:
I mean, if you're looking for an armoured truck things like the KAMAZ Typhoon already exist which has a troop carrier and cargo variant. The RG-33 MRAP also had a cargo variant made for USSOCOM. I don't see a reason to reinvent the wheel here when real armed forces and the defence industry have thought of the idea of armoured utility vehicles and have provided commerical, off the shelf options.


OK, fair point; I used Wikimedia Commons' photos of army trucks from Renault as a basis, but not sure how to fit that into my company's products for GE&T; especially as it's a commercial vehicle manufacturer from a country that's like Portugal IRL, but only in terms of geography, not quite culture (it's a mishmash of Italian and Portuguese in this land that's for RPs with a creole language formed from the two).
Formerly Astholm. I am no longer using the account.
Rebooted continuity ; March 2016

User avatar
Altpeak
Envoy
 
Posts: 226
Founded: Nov 21, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Altpeak » Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:35 am

Ideal Britain wrote:Which British Army unit would make the best shock troops?


Obviously it depends on situation and every regiment is going to claim it's better than every other regiment. Generally speaking though, the Parachute Regiment and Gurkhas in the Army and the Royal Marines are going to contain soldiers of a higher level of fitness than other regiments, and the Paratrooper and RM would probably argue they have a better mindset than other regiments because of needing to pass P Company or the Commando Tests. Gurkhas would likely make a similar argument just hedged in their regiment's traditions.
Proud Member of the Economic Union of Communist States!


User avatar
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15183
Founded: Jun 28, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:47 am

Altpeak wrote:
Ideal Britain wrote:Which British Army unit would make the best shock troops?


Obviously it depends on situation and every regiment is going to claim it's better than every other regiment. Generally speaking though, the Parachute Regiment and Gurkhas in the Army and the Royal Marines are going to contain soldiers of a higher level of fitness than other regiments, and the Paratrooper and RM would probably argue they have a better mindset than other regiments because of needing to pass P Company or the Commando Tests. Gurkhas would likely make a similar argument just hedged in their regiment's traditions.

And none of them to the shock and horror of absolutely nobody travels under armour... so when the 152 ICM's starts falling guess who's dying? Especially since the entire Army thinks it needs 10 whole minutes to get past a simple bridge because it happened in 'Stan.
“Obstacle crossing, for example a bridge, was very slow, very deliberate because in Afghanistan it would be a choke point where IEDs could be laid, whereas the Ukrainians don’t have that time.

“They say that at the front line if they are exposed for more than 11 minutes they can start to get hit by artillery.”

lmao
“They have asked us to teach offensive tactics, but we are not in that field, it’s defensive tactics we are teaching and how to preserve life,” said Lt Col Paul Kinkaid, a training specialist with the Adjutant General’s Corps.

Some more lmao.
Last edited by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary on Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:56 am, edited 4 times in total.

User avatar
Altpeak
Envoy
 
Posts: 226
Founded: Nov 21, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Altpeak » Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:40 pm

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
Altpeak wrote:
Obviously it depends on situation and every regiment is going to claim it's better than every other regiment. Generally speaking though, the Parachute Regiment and Gurkhas in the Army and the Royal Marines are going to contain soldiers of a higher level of fitness than other regiments, and the Paratrooper and RM would probably argue they have a better mindset than other regiments because of needing to pass P Company or the Commando Tests. Gurkhas would likely make a similar argument just hedged in their regiment's traditions.

And none of them to the shock and horror of absolutely nobody travels under armour... so when the 152 ICM's starts falling guess who's dying? Especially since the entire Army thinks it needs 10 whole minutes to get past a simple bridge because it happened in 'Stan.
“Obstacle crossing, for example a bridge, was very slow, very deliberate because in Afghanistan it would be a choke point where IEDs could be laid, whereas the Ukrainians don’t have that time.

“They say that at the front line if they are exposed for more than 11 minutes they can start to get hit by artillery.”

lmao
“They have asked us to teach offensive tactics, but we are not in that field, it’s defensive tactics we are teaching and how to preserve life,” said Lt Col Paul Kinkaid, a training specialist with the Adjutant General’s Corps.

Some more lmao.


First, the British Army does have armoured infantry, insufficient for a conventional conflict but it exists. Secondly, being shock troops is less about equipment, given anyone with enough training can learn to operate in conjunction with IFVs once equipped with them, but more about mindset and determination and willingness to press-home an attack.

Finally, you're basing your opinion on an entire Army off of one article from 5 years ago?
Proud Member of the Economic Union of Communist States!


User avatar
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15183
Founded: Jun 28, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:44 pm

Institutional-doctrinal inertia isn't changing in a time period as little as five years. It's more than likely that the entire MoD believes that the next war will not be one where Russia aggresses the Baltic states but where they'll have to go do the Afghanistan Reruntm, since that's exactly what Army 2020 has been about. Also did you not see the bit where it says "lmao we don't do attacks".
Last edited by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary on Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Ideal Britain
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1738
Founded: Mar 31, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Ideal Britain » Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:45 pm

Altpeak wrote:
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:And none of them to the shock and horror of absolutely nobody travels under armour... so when the 152 ICM's starts falling guess who's dying? Especially since the entire Army thinks it needs 10 whole minutes to get past a simple bridge because it happened in 'Stan.

lmao

Some more lmao.


First, the British Army does have armoured infantry, insufficient for a conventional conflict but it exists. Secondly, being shock troops is less about equipment, given anyone with enough training can learn to operate in conjunction with IFVs once equipped with them, but more about mindset and determination and willingness to press-home an attack.

Finally, you're basing your opinion on an entire Army off of one article from 5 years ago?

Is armoured infantry the same as mechanised infantry?
An MT alt-history Britain.

Prime Minister: Sikandar Khan, CB, MP

Monarch: Queen Elizabeth II
Year: 2021

User avatar
Dayganistan
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1214
Founded: May 02, 2016
Father Knows Best State

Postby Dayganistan » Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:48 pm

Ideal Britain wrote:
Altpeak wrote:
First, the British Army does have armoured infantry, insufficient for a conventional conflict but it exists. Secondly, being shock troops is less about equipment, given anyone with enough training can learn to operate in conjunction with IFVs once equipped with them, but more about mindset and determination and willingness to press-home an attack.

Finally, you're basing your opinion on an entire Army off of one article from 5 years ago?

Is armoured infantry the same as mechanised infantry?

More or less, the difference only exists in some armies. In the British context mechanized use APCs and armoured used IFVs. In Sweden the distinction also exists where mechanized used wheeled carriers while armoured use tracked carriers, which are usually more heavily armed as well. In a lot of other contexts they're all referred to as mechanized.

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to Factbooks and National Information

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Nova Secta, Xx New Canada xX

Advertisement

Remove ads