NS Military Worldbuilding Thread No. 12

[Vavlar]

As Allanea already noted tactics is a broad and complex topic that changes a lot based on technology and culture of the nations involved in the conflict. We aren't going to be able to give a lot of detail across things as broad as modern, medieval, or steppe warfare just through posts here. If you have a specific area you would want to know more about we could give you details or suggest books that would have more details for you to learn from.

Ok. Atleast thanks for your recommendation.

[Austrasien]

Anyone have any idea of modern tactics, hell even mideval or steppe warfare?

when in doubt yell loudly

[Gallia-]

high pitched squeaky sounds can be heard from further away than low pitched sounds

low pitched voices should be officers

NCOs should be squeakers

[Allanea]

high pitched squeaky sounds can be heard from further away than low pitched sounds

low pitched voices should be officers

NCOs should be squeakers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K0Esd1-ZEE

[Gallia-]

high pitched squeaky sounds can be heard from further away than low pitched sounds

low pitched voices should be officers

NCOs should be squeakers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K0Esd1-ZEE

pie good

[Mitheldalond]

Why do ABM and C-RAM systems like Iron Dome and David's Sling not have warheads? It makes some sense for systems like THAAD and SM-3 that are mainly designed to engage nuclear weapons, in that a kinetic kill vehicle is less likely to accidentally set off the nuclear warhead (not that there's much chance of that happening anyway). But Iron Dome was designed to protect cities from rocket arty, and David's Sling/SkyCeptor/PAAC-4 is there to deal with Scuds. In both cases it seems like you would want to set off the incoming warhead; setting it off, or having a warhead on the interceptor would do a more thorough job of destroying the projectile than just hitting it with kinetic energy, and reducing the chance of leaving behind large chunks of missile - or even an intact warhead - which will then smack into your city seems like a good idea.

I would also think the ability to self-destruct your interceptor would be beneficial. You don't want an interceptor that misses its target to fall into enemy hands, or - especially in the case of Iron Dome - to fall back down onto your city.

Granted, Iron Dome, THAAD, SM-3, and David's Sling have all proven highly effective in testing and/or actual service use, so clearly they're accurate enough to not need a warhead, but having one would still increase your probability of kill. It would also make them more effective against aircraft. Iron Dome's Tamir interceptor supposedly costs around $100,000. I've seen claims of up to 17km for its range, and the AIM-9s fired by the Chaparral had a range of ~6km and are about the same size as Tamir. That would make it an extremely cost effective short-range SAM system, but I have doubts about its lethality against aircraft like the A-10, Su-25, Mi-24, or AH-64. Same goes for the Stunner fired by David's Sling; with a price tag of only $1 million and a range of presumably around 40km, it should make a good mid-range SAM, but I'm not sure it would actually be able to shoot down an aircraft without a warhead.

Would adding a warhead drive up the size or cost of the missile too much, or is there some other reason not to have one?

[Gonswanza]

Why do ABM and C-RAM systems like Iron Dome and David's Sling not have warheads? It makes some sense for systems like THAAD and SM-3 that are mainly designed to engage nuclear weapons, in that a kinetic kill vehicle is less likely to accidentally set off the nuclear warhead (not that there's much chance of that happening anyway). But Iron Dome was designed to protect cities from rocket arty, and David's Sling/SkyCeptor/PAAC-4 is there to deal with Scuds. In both cases it seems like you would want to set off the incoming warhead; setting it off, or having a warhead on the interceptor would do a more thorough job of destroying the projectile than just hitting it with kinetic energy, and reducing the chance of leaving behind large chunks of missile - or even an intact warhead - which will then smack into your city seems like a good idea.

I would also think the ability to self-destruct your interceptor would be beneficial. You don't want an interceptor that misses its target to fall into enemy hands, or - especially in the case of Iron Dome - to fall back down onto your city.

Granted, Iron Dome, THAAD, SM-3, and David's Sling have all proven highly effective in testing and/or actual service use, so clearly they're accurate enough to not need a warhead, but having one would still increase your probability of kill. It would also make them more effective against aircraft. Iron Dome's Tamir interceptor supposedly costs around $100,000. I've seen claims of up to 17km for its range, and the AIM-9s fired by the Chaparral had a range of ~6km and are about the same size as Tamir. That would make it an extremely cost effective short-range SAM system, but I have doubts about its lethality against aircraft like the A-10, Su-25, Mi-24, or AH-64. Same goes for the Stunner fired by David's Sling; with a price tag of only $1 million and a range of presumably around 40km, it should make a good mid-range SAM, but I'm not sure it would actually be able to shoot down an aircraft without a warhead.

Would adding a warhead drive up the size or cost of the missile too much, or is there some other reason not to have one?

I mean, it could be a problem of complexity, weight, and cost, along with the risk that the fusing mechanism fails or even misfires, though given how far Israel's systems have progressed in terms of tech (to the point where they are considering replacing Iron Dome with a laser defense system) I suppose the risk of fuses failing is a non-issue.

Of course, I'm just assuming here, since I'm not a primary source or a secondary source, but I can only guess at (hopefully) rational reasons in a calm manner, unlike certain people here.

[Gallia-]

Why do ABM and C-RAM systems like Iron Dome and David's Sling not have warheads?

Warheads are expensive and shooting down sugar rockets and mortar rounds requires rockets that are incredibly cheap.

This is the fatal flaw of the otherwise excellent air defense complex Tor.

[United Earthlings]

Divide it by eight, because VLS modules come in 8 or 5-cell units depending on whether it's got the elevator/crane or not.

They used to come in only 8 cell units, but recently you can pretty much get them down to even a single cell if wanted a ship design built around a single VLS module.

Which is kind of funny, because when I was last researching into VLS modules a few years ago for a naval ship design for my nation, the basic cell modules were either 8 or 4.

Not Anymore Apparently

Yeap. I also question why most FT nations rely so heavily on mechs/mecha anyways, the disadvantages outweigh any possible advantages from such a system! Assuming there even are any.

I guess they would be considered a form of mechs/mecha in a sci-fi FT settling, but for my FT nation I only went so far as using a humanoid sized "Android" for basic infantry that would probably look something closer to a mix between the B2 Battle Droid from the Clone Wars and the Cylon Centurions found in the 2004 remake of the Battlestar Galactic series.

Large/Giant mechas I don't envision being that practical in a futurist battlefield settling.

Mecha will just pick up your tank's dumb turret and throw it like a shuriken through a building you can't stop them.

Bold Words, until the enemy tank crew decided to reward your mecha's "foolish" bravery by kneecapping it then proceeding to finish it off with a headshot.

But, I'm sure your mecha soldiers will take comfort in knowing that they'll be forever remember in their failure as the "Charge of the Mecha Brigade".

Is there something wrong using a tank for recon?

Nope, a tank platoon should be standard in your armoured recon battalions.

Personally, I also like to use six wheeled vehicles armed with 90mm HV guns. But, that's just me personally.

What is the modern equivalent of annoying the enemy?

Playing loud music their culture finds distasteful at all hours, but especially when their soldiers are trying to get some sleep?

Or more generally any sound frequency that would disrupt their rhythmic biological systems.

Why do ABM and C-RAM systems like Iron Dome and David's Sling not have warheads?

Would adding a warhead drive up the size or cost of the missile too much, or is there some other reason not to have one?

Small correction first, the Tamir interceptor used by Iron Dome does in fact have a warhead, a high explosive fragmentation one no less.

As for why, IIRC pure kinetic interceptor missiles are used purely for political cost calculations in that it's deemed better at reducing the potential "fallout" of collateral damage over a given area.

Warheads are expensive and shooting down sugar rockets and mortar rounds requires rockets that are incredibly cheap.

Can't recall where I read it as it's been so long, but I once found the breakdown in costs for the various components of a missile.

As to be expected, the guidance systems were the most expensive going anywhere from 60 to 75% of the total cost to the rocket motor(s) being the second up to 20% in some cases, then third the warhead which usually hovered somewhere around 10% +/- a few percentage points and then finally the missile body itself being the cheapest component to make.

Suffice to say, warheads aren't actually that expensive to produce. Hell, depending on how large the missile is and the distance you need it to travel, the fuel costs can be more than the actual warhead.

[New Vihenia]

Well unfortunately.. Russians does not really have a dedicated CRAM system for a rocket.

regarding price tho.. well Tor and Pantsyr is as cheap as it gets.. as they're command guided, Russians moved all the complex apparatus inside the TELAR (phased arrays, TV channels etc). Tis comes at price of limited simultaneous target handling capability.

also for fun X3. i did modeling on GMLRS's Radar Cross Section. It's actually quite challenging as a target.

https://twitter.com/Flankerchan/status/ ... 5677062144

[Gallia-]

Yes the issue with Tor is that it's too expensive to be used as a frontline combat system.

[Mitheldalond]

Here's a partial write-up for a new fighter I've been working on for a while now. You'll have to excuse the rough-looking model; it was really only supposed to be a test to make sure things fit and figure out stuff like wing area, but it's the only graphic I have, so it'll have to do for now. The ordnance charts are actually for a planned export version that lacks thrust-vectoring and has the (mechanically scanned) AN/APG-68 radar as a baseline. The ordnance list for the Mitheldalondian model would be more extensive. How's it look so far?

---

F-27A Vixen

(Click for full-sized image)

The F-27 is a small, lightweight canard delta wing multirole fighter, and the newest fighter in Mitheldalond’s inventory. Designed to maximize performance while minimizing size, weight, and cost, it was controversially selected to replace the F-16 due to concerns about the latter’s ability to survive in a combat environment with 5th generation stealth fighters carrying high off-boresight (HOBS) missiles, as well as concerns that the 40-year-old design was nearing the limits of its potential growth. Regardless of the validity of these concerns, the F-27 is a superb aircraft expected to be fully capable of beating 5th generation and later air superiority fighters in a close-range dogfight, though its ability to actually make it into the merge with a stealth fighter is unlikely to be any better than the F-16’s. It has the highest thrust-to-weight ratio in afterburner of all known fighter aircraft (the F-22 still wins in dry thrust-to-weight), which gives it exceptional acceleration and rate of climb; in most loading conditions, it's able to accelerate directly upwards. This extreme acceleration enables the F-27 to use its supermaneuverability and perform high angle-of-attack maneuvers without worrying about being left slow and vulnerable at a low energy state afterwards. The aircraft also features very low wing loading, giving it a very tight turning circle, and – combined with its high thrust-to-weight ratio – an excellent sustained turn rate, especially when its thrust vectoring engine and large canards are added into the equation. Combined with its low weight and sturdy construction, this low wing loading also gives the F-27 excellent short takeoff and landing (STOL) performance, making it ideally suited for operations from roadways and small or unfinished runways.

The F-27 is a very small aircraft, comparable in size to the miniscule A-4 Skyhawk, and even many WWII-era fighters. Dwarfed even by fighters as small as the F-16, it is a difficult target to hit with guns, and one that opposing pilots can easily lose sight of in a dogfight. Efforts during design to incorporate RCS reduction techniques – such as planform alignment and S-curve intakes – give it a somewhat reduced radar cross section, about 1/2 to 3/4 that of fighters like the F/A-18, Eurofighter, and Rafale, though this isn't really enough to make a noticeable difference in detection range compared to said aircraft.

---

Specifications:

• Type: lightweight multirole fighter, Service: Air Force
• Service Introduction: 2018
• Unit Cost: ~$30-35 million
• Production: 780 delivered, 180 on order

Characteristics:

• Crew: 1
• Length: 41'3" (12.57 m)
• Wingspan: 28' (8.53 m), 29'3" (8.92 m) with 2 AIM-9Xs on wingtip rails, 27' (8.23 m) without wingtip rails
• Wing Area: 371.6 sqft (34.52 m²)
• Empty Weight: 14,300 lb (6486.37 kg)
• Max Takeoff Weight: 31,250 lb (14,174.76 kg)
• Internal Fuel Capacity: 1000 gal JP-8 (6700 lb, 3039 kg)
• Engine: thrust-vectoring General Electric F110-GE-129 turbofan: 17,155 lbf (76.31 kN) thrust dry, 29,500 lbf (131.22 kN) thrust in afterburner

Performance:

• Max Speed: Mach 2 at altitude, Mach ~1.2 at sea level
• Supercruise: Mach 1.4 at altitude in air-to-air configuration without external fuel tank
• Combat Radius: 350 mi (~563 km) hi-lo-hi on internal fuel with 3 x 2000 lb bombs and 2 x AIM-9 Sidewinders, plus 5 minutes afterburner and 20 minutes reserve
• Ferry Range: 2300 mi (~3700 km) with 1 x 600 gal external tank and 2 x 370 gal external tanks
• Service Ceiling: 60,000 ft (18,288 m)
• Rate-of-Climb: 72,000+ ft/min (~305+ m/s)
• Wing Loading:
  • 84.10 lb/sqft (410.61 kg/m²) at max takeoff weight
    
  • 49.13 lb/sqft (239.87 kg/m²) with 50% internal fuel, 2 AIM-9s, and 230 lb (104 kg) of pilot and gear
• Thrust-to-Weight Ratio:
  • 0.55 dry, 0.94 in afterburner at max takeoff weight
    
  • 0.94 dry, 1.62 in afterburner with 50% internal fuel, 2 AIM-9s, and 230 lb (104 kg) of pilot and gear
• Design Load Factor: +9g / -3g sustained, rated to +12g for short durations without damage

Armament:

• 1 x 20mm Pontiac M39 revolver cannon, 300 rounds
  
• Up to 10,000 lb (4536 kg) of ordnance and stores on 7 hardpoints (4 under-wing, 2 wingtip rails, 1 centerline) and 2 fuselage stations for targeting pods or similar

Avionics and Electronic Systems:

• AN/APG-83 AESA radar
  
• Fly-by-wire flight control system
  
• Helmet mounted display, plus HUD
  
• Glass cockpit features, including full-color multifuntion displays
  
• AN/ALE-50 or AN/ALE-55 towed decoys
  
• Chaff and flare dispensers

Comparison to Other Fighters:

Thrust-to-Weight Ratio		100% Fuel 4 x AIM-120 2 x AIM-9			50% Fuel 2 x AIM-9			Max Takeoff Weight
	Dry Thrust	Afterburner		Dry Thrust	Afterburner		Dry Thrust	Afterburner
F-16	0.61	1.06		0.75	1.28		0.41	0.70
F-15	0.67	1.09		0.83	1.35		0.43	0.70
F-22	0.82	1.10		0.98	1.322		0.62	0.84
Eurofighter	0.70	1.07		0.86	1.318		0.50	0.77
F-27	0.75	1.28		0.94	1.62		0.55	0.94

Wing Loading		100% Fuel 4 x AIM-120 2 x AIM-9			50% Fuel 2 x AIM-9			Max Takeoff Weight
	lb/sqft	kg/m2		lb/sqft	kg/m2		lb/sqft	kg/m2
F-16	93.09	454.51		76.67	374.34		141.00	688.40
F-15	71.51	349.14		58.11	283.72		111.84	546.1
F-22	75.43	368.28		63.03	307.74		99.40	485.31
Eurofighter	67.67	330.39		55.10	269.02		94.03	459.09
F-27	61.96	302.52		49.12	239.82		84.10	410.61

Ordnance:

US Package	7	6	5	4R	4	4L	3	2	1
Capacity (lb)	425	1200	3500	550	5000	550	3500	1200	425
Load Factor (g)	9.0	5.5	5.5	9.0	5.5	9.0	5.5	5.5	9.0
Capacity @ 9g (lb)	425	700	2000	550	3000	550	2000	700	425
Air-to-Air Missiles
AIM-120 AMRAAM	1	1	1				1	1	1
AIM-9 Sidewinder	1	1	1				1	1	1
Air-to-Ground Missiles
AGM-158A JASSM			1		1		1
AGM-84H SLAM-ER			1		1		1
AGM-65 Maverick		1	1				1	1
AGM-88E AARGM		1	1				1	1
Glide Bombs
AGM-154 JSOW		1	2		1		2	1
GBU-39 SDB			4		4		4
GBU-53 SDB II		4	4		4		4	4
Bombs
500 lb Class
Mk 82		2	6		1		6	2
GBU-38 JDAM		1	3		1		3	1
GBU-12 Paveway II		1	3		1		3	1
1000 lb Class
Mk 83		1	3		1		3	1
GBU-32 JDAM		1	2		1		2	1
GBU-16 Paveway II		1	2		1		2	1
2000 lb Class
Mk 84			1		1		1
BLU-109 penetrator			1		1		1
GBU-31 JDAM			1		1		1
GBU-10 Paveway II			1		1		1
GBU-24 Paveway III			1		1		1
Rockets
70mm Hydra 70, APKWS
LAU-68 (7 tubes)		2	3				3	2
LAU-61 (19 tubes)		1	2				2	1
5in Zuni
LAU-10 (4 tubes)		1	3				3	1
Pods
AN/AAQ-33 Sniper XR				1
AN/ALQ-184 defensive jammer		1			1			1
External Fuel Tanks
600 gal					1
370 gal			1		1		1

EU Package	7	6	5	4R	4	4L	3	2	1
Capacity (kg)	194	544	1588	249	2268	249	1588	544	194
Load Factor (G)	9.0	5.5	5.5	9.0	5.5	9.0	5.5	5.5	9.0
Capacity @ 9G (kg)	194	317	907	249	1361	249	907	317	194
Air-to-Air Missiles
Meteor		1	1				1	1
IRIS-T	1	1	1				1	1	1
Air-to-Ground Missiles
Storm Shadow			1		1		1
AM39 Exocet			1		1		1
AGM-65 Maverick		1	1				1	1
Brimstone		3	3				3	3
ALARM		1	1				1	1
Bombs
500 lb Class
Mk 82		2	6		1		6	2
GBU-38 JDAM		1	3		1		3	1
GBU-12 Paveway II		1	3		1		3	1
GBU-22 Paveway III		1	3		1		3	1
Paveway IV		1	3		1		3	1
1000 lb Class
Mk 83		1	3		1		3	1
GBU-32 JDAM		1	2		1		2	1
GBU-16 Paveway II		1	2		1		2	1
2000 lb Class
Mk 84			1		1		1
BLU-109 penetrator			1		1		1
GBU-31 JDAM			1		1		1
GBU-10 Paveway II			1		1		1
GBU-24 Paveway III			1		1		1
Rockets
70mm CRV7
LAU-5002 (6 tubes)		2	3				3	2
LAU-5003 (19 tubes)		1	2				2	1
Pods
AN/AAQ-28 Litening III				1
AN/ALQ-131 defensive jammer		1			1			1
External Fuel Tanks
2000 L					1
1000 L			1		1		1

Ru Package	7	6	5	4R	4	4L	3	2	1
Capacity (kg)	194	544	1588	249	2268	249	1588	544	194
Load Factor (G)	9.0	5.5	5.5	9.0	5.5	9.0	5.5	5.5	9.0
Capacity @ 9G (kg)	194	317	907	249	1361	249	907	317	194
Air-to-Air Missiles
R-77 (AA-12)		1	1				1	1
R-73M (AA-11)	1	1	1				1	1	1
Air-to-Ground Missiles
Kh-59ME (AS-18)			1				1
? Kh-31A (AS-17)			1		1?		1
? Kh-35 (AS-20)		1	1		1		1	1
Kh-29 (AS-14)			1				1
Kh-25 (AS-10)		1	1				1	1
Kh-31P (AS-17)			1		1?		1
Bombs
250 kg Class
FAB-250		1	3		1		3	1
500 kg Class
FAB-500		1	2		1		2	1
BETAB-500		1	2		1		2	1
KAB-500KR		1	1		1		1	1
KAB-500L		1	1		1		1	1
KAB-500S-E			1		1		1
Rockets
80mm S-8
B-8S7 (7 tubes)		1	2				2	1
B-8M1 (20 tubes)		1	1				1	1
122mm S-13
B-13L (5 tubes)		1	2				2	1
266mm S-25
O-25 (1 tube)		1	2				2	1
Pods
targeting pod				1
defensive jammer		1			1			1
External Fuel Tanks
1500 L			1		1		1
1150 L			1		1		1

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

I am not sure why you have this

1 x 20mm Pontiac M39 revolver cannon, 300 rounds

when you have stuck

thrust-vectoring General Electric F110-GE-129 turbofan: 17,155 lbf (76.31 kN) thrust dry, 29,500 lbf (131.22 kN) thrust in afterburner
AN/APG-83 AESA radar
Fly-by-wire flight control system
Helmet mounted display, plus HUD
Glass cockpit features, including full-color multifuntion displays
AN/ALE-50 or AN/ALE-55 towed decoys
Chaff and flare dispensers

on your Not!JAS 39. Even AMX AMX has a Vulcan and the AMX replaced the Fiat G.91.

[Gallia-]

M39 is a jammomatic but it's substantially lighter, about as old, and approximately as ballistically effective as a Vulcan?

M61 might even be older than the M39 since it started development immediately after WW2, in 1946.

It's fine for strafing ground targets though. You don't need a high rate of fire to chew up a truck convoy or a train.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

To be sure this is great... until potential customers like Argentina looks at the electronics list and goes "you want how many percentages of our GDP for this again?"

[Gallia-]

Argentina would just scribble out their GDP numbers and write in something that makes the percentage look good lol.

The smart move is to not have a cannon since they're generally deadweight but if you're going to strafe people on the ground giving it the tiniest possible gun is the way to go. The only reason the USAF is using a GAU-22 and not ADEN 25 in the F-35A is because the ADEN 25 never worked right and thus GAU-12 was the only practical option.

One of the early Navy considerations for the -C gunpod was a BK-27, and I believe the F-35A's gun mount is (or prototypes were) sized for a BK-27, but the US wasn't interested since it would require yet another type of ~20-30mm ammunition and went with a 25x137mm gun instead because everyone (Air Force, Navy and Marines) has that available. The shells are electrically primed, sure, but the factory that provides the aviation specific PGU rounds exists for the AC-130s and the AV-8s all the same, and it was more a matter of scaling up than getting an entirely new factory setup. If the USAF intended to replace all the Vulcan guns with GAU-22s this would be simple because it would be big money coming in.

Anyway the cannon is fine and given the Skyhawk uses the even more notorious Colt Mk 12 it may even be an improvement, especially since I don't think people are making new 20x110mm shells or Mark 12 cannons.

[The Akasha Colony]

The F-27 is a small, lightweight canard delta wing multirole fighter, and the newest fighter in Mitheldalond’s inventory. Designed to maximize performance while minimizing size, weight, and cost, it was controversially selected to replace the F-16 due to concerns about the latter’s ability to survive in a combat environment with 5th generation stealth fighters carrying high off-boresight (HOBS) missiles, as well as concerns that the 40-year-old design was nearing the limits of its potential growth. Regardless of the validity of these concerns, the F-27 is a superb aircraft expected to be fully capable of beating 5th generation and later air superiority fighters in a close-range dogfight, though its ability to actually make it into the merge with a stealth fighter is unlikely to be any better than the F-16’s. It has the highest thrust-to-weight ratio in afterburner of all known fighter aircraft (the F-22 still wins in dry thrust-to-weight), which gives it exceptional acceleration and rate of climb; in most loading conditions, it's able to accelerate directly upwards. This extreme acceleration enables the F-27 to use its supermaneuverability and perform high angle-of-attack maneuvers without worrying about being left slow and vulnerable at a low energy state afterwards. The aircraft also features very low wing loading, giving it a very tight turning circle, and – combined with its high thrust-to-weight ratio – an excellent sustained turn rate, especially when its thrust vectoring engine and large canards are added into the equation. Combined with its low weight and sturdy construction, this low wing loading also gives the F-27 excellent short takeoff and landing (STOL) performance, making it ideally suited for operations from roadways and small or unfinished runways.

The F-27 is a very small aircraft, comparable in size to the miniscule A-4 Skyhawk, and even many WWII-era fighters. Dwarfed even by fighters as small as the F-16, it is a difficult target to hit with guns, and one that opposing pilots can easily lose sight of in a dogfight. Efforts during design to incorporate RCS reduction techniques – such as planform alignment and S-curve intakes – give it a somewhat reduced radar cross section, about 1/2 to 3/4 that of fighters like the F/A-18, Eurofighter, and Rafale, though this isn't really enough to make a noticeable difference in detection range compared to said aircraft.

You're concerned about the F-16 reaching the limit of its "potential growth" so the solution is... a significantly smaller fighter with a much lighter payload?

Why do ABM and C-RAM systems like Iron Dome and David's Sling not have warheads? It makes some sense for systems like THAAD and SM-3 that are mainly designed to engage nuclear weapons, in that a kinetic kill vehicle is less likely to accidentally set off the nuclear warhead (not that there's much chance of that happening anyway). But Iron Dome was designed to protect cities from rocket arty, and David's Sling/SkyCeptor/PAAC-4 is there to deal with Scuds. In both cases it seems like you would want to set off the incoming warhead; setting it off, or having a warhead on the interceptor would do a more thorough job of destroying the projectile than just hitting it with kinetic energy, and reducing the chance of leaving behind large chunks of missile - or even an intact warhead - which will then smack into your city seems like a good idea.

Dedicated ABM interceptors like THAAD, SM-3, and GBI use hit-to-kill mechanisms because these are better at killing fast reentry vehicles than explosive warheads, not because of any concerns about "setting off the nuclear warhead." RVs are hardened targets with very low radar cross-sections moving at extreme velocities (8,000+ m/s), which makes them resistant to blast and fragment damage, hard for proximity fuzes to reliably detect (small drones and stealth aircraft present similar problems), and hard to catch in the explosive radius of a reasonably-sized warhead. The impact of two hypersonic vehicles colliding releases far greater energy than catching the target in an explosive blast, which basically guarantees the target will be destroyed and eliminates any concern regarding explosive warhead dud rates (which are higher than many people expect).

Missiles like Tor and PAC-3 that have explosive warheads usually have them because they're multi-role and are expected to engage thin-skinned air-breathing targets like cruise missiles and aircraft in addition to shorter-range ballistic missiles. The warhead isn't there to improve lethality against ballistic missiles.

Same goes for the Stunner fired by David's Sling; with a price tag of only $1 million and a range of presumably around 40km, it should make a good mid-range SAM, but I'm not sure it would actually be able to shoot down an aircraft without a warhead.

I don't know of any aircraft that is particularly resistant to getting rammed at supersonic/hypersonic speeds.

[New Vihenia]

The only concern is whether the dart will give enough damage or just like BMP being penetrated with M829's.. where the shell just move through from one side to another and basically leave the BMP intact.

[Gallia-]

It's an 8 inch, or greater, diameter missile body though.

The only thing that I can think of that might casually just shrug a Sparrow or AMRAAM literally flying through it would be an extremely large aircraft like a C-130 or something.

HTK is entirely viable for killing single and twin-seat fighter-bombers and cruise missiles though.

[Kerberos]

Hey everyone, getting back into Nationstates after decade away from you cool people, decided to try organizing an army properly.

National history: Gained independence from Great Briton in the 1950s, then spent the cold war leaning towards the eastern sphere of influence, before being ripped apart by a really nasty civil war now the nation is rebuilding its army with the resources at hand.

I'm considering this as a first draft, there's a word document on my desktop where everything is being slowly hammered out

Light Infantry Company

3x platoons
Command Section
4x Support Sections (Sniper, Scout, 2x Mortar)

Command Section
Captain – Makarov Pm
1st Lieutenant – Makarov Pm
2x Communication Specialists – AKS-74U
Senior Medic – Makarov Pm

Sniper Support Section
Sergeant – AKS-74U
4x Sniper Teams
Sniper Team
1x Sniper – M40 Rifle (various models)
1x Spotter - FAL Para

Recon Support Section
Sergeant – AKS-74U
Communication Specialist – AKS-74U
Designated Marksman – FAL Mod 33 (modified FAL Para with heavy barrel, bipod and scope)
Corporal – FAL Para
6x troopers – 4x FAL Para, 2x Ithaca 37 or MTS12-21 shotguns



Mortar Section
Sergeant – AKS-74U
Communication Specialist – AKS-74U
6x mortarmen – 6x AKS-74U
1x 82mm BM-37 Mortar

Platoon

Platoon Headquarters section
1x HMG Team
1x Antitank Team
3x Rifles Sections

Platoon Headquarters
1st or 2nd Lieutenant – Makarov Pm
Platoon Sergeant – AKS-74U
Communication Specialist – AKS-74U
Platoon Medic – Makarov Pm

HMG team
Corporal – FAL Para
4x Troopers – FAL Para
1x DShK 12.7x108mm

Antitank Team
Corporal – FAL Para
5x troopers – FAL Para
2x RPG-7 Launchers


Rifle Section
Sergeant – AKS-74U
Corporal – FAL Para
Communication Specialist – AKS-74U
7 troopers – 5x FAL Para, 2x MG3 LMG

Support Elements
The following support elements are deployed on the company level at the discretion of battalion and army headquarters. After deployment they are under direct command of the company HQ who can assign operational command to specific platoon commanders as needed.

Mechanised Transport Section
Sergeant – AKS-74U
Communication Specialist – AKS-74U
5x Drivers (Trooper, Special)
5x Assistant Drivers (Trooper, Special)
10x Gunners (Trooper, Special)
5x ZIL-131 trucks (Equipped with a ring mounted DShK HMG or AGS-17 Grenade Launcher)

ATGM Team
Corporal – FAL Para
2x Troopers – FAL Para
1x AT-4 Spigot ATGM

“Ishtar” NBC Reaction Team
Team Lead, Acting Rank, Captain – Scorpion EVO3 SMG
9x Agents, Acting Rank, Sergeant - 2x KS-23M Shotguns, 9x Scorpion EVO3 SMGs
*Notes: Following the disastrous opening engagement of the civil war, teams specializing in NBC transportation and disposal are frequently deployed alongside conventional armed forces. Since order has been restored, they have expanded their role to include hostage rescue, sabotage and CQB operations.

Light SAM Team
Corporal – FAL Para
5x Troopers – FAL Para
3x 9k34 Strela-3 SAMs

[Spirit of Hope]

Hey everyone, getting back into Nationstates after decade away from you cool people, decided to try organizing an army properly.

National history: Gained independence from Great Briton in the 1950s, then spent the cold war leaning towards the eastern sphere of influence, before being ripped apart by a really nasty civil war now the nation is rebuilding its army with the resources at hand.

I'm considering this as a first draft, there's a word document on my desktop where everything is being slowly hammered out

Welcome!

Light Infantry Company

3x platoons
Command Section
4x Support Sections (Sniper, Scout, 2x Mortar)

Command Section
Captain – Makarov Pm
1st Lieutenant – Makarov Pm
2x Communication Specialists – AKS-74U
Senior Medic – Makarov Pm

Sniper Support Section
Sergeant – AKS-74U
4x Sniper Teams
Sniper Team
1x Sniper – M40 Rifle (various models)
1x Spotter - FAL Para

Recon Support Section
Sergeant – AKS-74U
Communication Specialist – AKS-74U
Designated Marksman – FAL Mod 33 (modified FAL Para with heavy barrel, bipod and scope)
Corporal – FAL Para
6x troopers – 4x FAL Para, 2x Ithaca 37 or MTS12-21 shotguns



Mortar Section
Sergeant – AKS-74U
Communication Specialist – AKS-74U
6x mortarmen – 6x AKS-74U
1x 82mm BM-37 Mortar

Is this saying that the company would have 4 sniper/spotter teams, a recon team with designated marksman, and 2 82mm mortars?

I would say you are a little heavy on sniper teams, I'd say 2, and I would suggest combining your mortar teams and reorganizing them a bit:

Mortar Section
Sergeant – AKS-74U
1x Forward Observer
2x Communication Specialist – AKS-74U
10x mortarmen – 6x AKS-74U
2x 82mm BM-37 Mortar

Platoon

Platoon Headquarters section
1x HMG Team
1x Antitank Team
3x Rifles Sections

Platoon Headquarters
1st or 2nd Lieutenant – Makarov Pm
Platoon Sergeant – AKS-74U
Communication Specialist – AKS-74U
Platoon Medic – Makarov Pm

HMG team
Corporal – FAL Para
4x Troopers – FAL Para
1x DShK 12.7x108mm

Antitank Team
Corporal – FAL Para
5x troopers – FAL Para
2x RPG-7 Launchers

Rifle Section
Sergeant – AKS-74U
Corporal – FAL Para
Communication Specialist – AKS-74U
7 troopers – 5x FAL Para, 2x MG3 LMG

For your platoons I think a 12.7mm MG is probably heavier than they need, those same troops could be carrying two 7.62 MG's which would get you more effective fire power and be able to carry more ammo.

Personally I'd rename the antitank team, RPG-7's aren't going to be taking out tanks, though they will be fine against light armor or structures.

Rifle section doesn't need its own comms guy. If they have a squad level radio its probably not that big and mostly for talking to the platoon HQ and doesn't need to reach any further back.

Support Elements
The following support elements are deployed on the company level at the discretion of battalion and army headquarters. After deployment they are under direct command of the company HQ who can assign operational command to specific platoon commanders as needed.

Mechanised Transport Section
Sergeant – AKS-74U
Communication Specialist – AKS-74U
5x Drivers (Trooper, Special)
5x Assistant Drivers (Trooper, Special)
10x Gunners (Trooper, Special)
5x ZIL-131 trucks (Equipped with a ring mounted DShK HMG or AGS-17 Grenade Launcher)

Between the truck (holding the gun and ammo), assistant driver (who can assist the gunner as needed), and gunner you probably don't need an extra gunner. But they certainly won't hurt anything that much.

ATGM Team
Corporal – FAL Para
2x Troopers – FAL Para
1x AT-4 Spigot ATGM

“Ishtar” NBC Reaction Team
Team Lead, Acting Rank, Captain – Scorpion EVO3 SMG
9x Agents, Acting Rank, Sergeant - 2x KS-23M Shotguns, 9x Scorpion EVO3 SMGs
*Notes: Following the disastrous opening engagement of the civil war, teams specializing in NBC transportation and disposal are frequently deployed alongside conventional armed forces. Since order has been restored, they have expanded their role to include hostage rescue, sabotage and CQB operations.


Light SAM Team
Corporal – FAL Para
5x Troopers – FAL Para
3x 9k34 Strela-3 SAMs

SAM and ATGM teams look good, that looks like an overly large NBC team to be assisting a company and moving from NBC to hostage rescue and CQB sounds a little weird.

Overall looks pretty interesting. I've put all mine in a google spreadsheet if you want to take a look. Plus some historical/current TOE related stuff for reference.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

For your platoons I think a 12.7mm MG is probably heavier than they need, those same troops could be carrying two 7.62 MG's which would get you more effective fire power and be able to carry more ammo.

Personally I'd rename the antitank team, RPG-7's aren't going to be taking out tanks, though they will be fine against light armor or structures.

Rifle section doesn't need its own comms guy. If they have a squad level radio its probably not that big and mostly for talking to the platoon HQ and doesn't need to reach any further back.

Support Elements
The following support elements are deployed on the company level at the discretion of battalion and army headquarters. After deployment they are under direct command of the company HQ who can assign operational command to specific platoon commanders as needed.

Mechanised Transport Section
Sergeant – AKS-74U
Communication Specialist – AKS-74U
5x Drivers (Trooper, Special)
5x Assistant Drivers (Trooper, Special)
10x Gunners (Trooper, Special)
5x ZIL-131 trucks (Equipped with a ring mounted DShK HMG or AGS-17 Grenade Launcher)

Between the truck (holding the gun and ammo), assistant driver (who can assist the gunner as needed), and gunner you probably don't need an extra gunner. But they certainly won't hurt anything that much.

Personally, I'd rather they had 60 mm mortars at the platoon level than a Dushka. If Dushka needed, borrow it from the support-troops.

The MG-3 does suppressive-fire better of soft things, and the RPG-7 is fine for anything that needs a 'lil more slap to it, and the 60mm would be a good indirect method of shaking lads out of cover.
-An AGS-17 section would be a bit too hard on logistics.

[Kerberos]

Hey, thanks for the advice, I was having some trouble with the snipers and mortars. I made a few alterations to unit composition, it seems a lot more streamlined now.

I was looking at 60mm mortars but noticed the 82mm white phosphorous shells seem to produce a really good smoke screen. Also, I had trouble finding a 60mm mortar produced by the soviets that wasn't a ww2 leftover, that might be an error on my part

I am very aware of what Willy Pete does to people.

With regards to the NBC Team, its entirely based on my nation's history, basically they had a civil war and both sides had operational nuclear weapons. Which got used. A lot... When the dust settled there were (are) several warheads unaccounted for. The fear of nuclear suicide attacks, boobytraps and the like meant the NBC teams started getting a lot of specialized equipment and training. Post civil war, there was a fairly large group of very skilled operatives and significantly less nuclear threats to worry about. Now they get attached to units when circumstances require it. You will notice that while everyone else is using Cold-War hand-me-downs, they get actual modern equipment.

I was debating the DShK on the platoon level, it comes down to "use what you have," a company might not be able to get a SAM team but at least they got something, I am planning on designing my own weapons, but I kind of want to roleplay Kerberos' entry into the 21st century, because fun.

The AGS-17 is probably not going to be terribly common, most trucks are getting DShK 12.7mms, I just like having the option

Anyway, I'm going to do a bit more organizing and research tomorrow, as you can no doubt tell, English was not my best subject. anyway goodnight all.

Light Infantry Company

3x platoons
Command Section
4x Support Sections (Sniper, Scout, 2x Mortar)

Command Section
Captain – Makarov Pm
1st Lieutenant – Makarov Pm
2x Communication Specialists – AKS-74U
Senior Medic – Makarov Pm

Sniper Support Section
Sergeant – AKS-74U
2x Sniper Teams
Sniper Team
1x Sniper – M40 Rifle (various models)
1x Spotter - FAL Para

Recon Support Section
Sergeant – AKS-74U
Communication Specialist – AKS-74U
Designated Marksman – FAL Mod 33 (modified FAL Para with heavy barrel, bipod and scope)
Corporal – FAL Para
6x troopers – 4x FAL Para, 2x Ithaca 37 or MTS12-21 shotguns



Mortar Section
Sergeant – AKS-74U
1x Forward Observer
2x Communication Specialist – AKS-74U
10x mortarmen – 6x AKS-74U
2x 82mm BM-37 Mortar

Platoon

Platoon Headquarters section
1x HMG Team
1x Antitank Team
3x Rifles Sections

Platoon Headquarters
1st or 2nd Lieutenant – Makarov Pm
Platoon Sergeant – AKS-74U
Communication Specialist – AKS-74U
Platoon Medic – Makarov Pm

HMG team
Corporal – FAL Para
4x Troopers – FAL Para
1x DShK 12.7x108mm

Antitank Team
Corporal – FAL Para
5x troopers – FAL Para
2x RPG-7 Launchers


Rifle Section
Sergeant – AKS-74U
Corporal – FAL Para
Designated Marksman – FAL Mod 33 (modified FAL Para with heavy barrel, bipod and scope)
7 troopers – 5x FAL Para, 2x MG3 LMG

Support Elements
The following support elements are deployed on the company level at the discretion of battalion and army headquarters. After deployment they are under direct command of the company HQ who can assign operational command to specific platoon commanders as needed.

Mechanised Transport Section
Sergeant – AKS-74U
Communication Specialist – AKS-74U
5x Drivers (Trooper, Special)
5x Assistant Drivers (Trooper, Special)
5x Gunners (Trooper, Special)
5x ZIL-131 trucks (Equipped with a ring mounted DShK HMG or AGS-17 Grenade Launcher)

ATGM Team
Corporal – FAL Para
2x Troopers – FAL Para
1x AT-4 Spigot ATGM

“Ishtar” NBC Reaction Team
Team Lead, Acting Rank, Captain – Scorpion EVO3 SMG
9x Agents, Acting Rank, Sergeant - 2x KS-23M Shotguns, 9x Scorpion EVO3 SMGs
*Notes: Following the disastrous opening engagement of the civil war, teams specializing in NBC transportation and disposal are frequently deployed alongside conventional armed forces. Since order has been restored, they have expanded their role to include hostage rescue, sabotage and CQB operations.

Light SAM Team
Corporal – FAL Para
5x Troopers – FAL Para
3x 9k34 Strela-3 SAMs

[Hurtful Thoughts]

Hey, thanks for the advice, I was having some trouble with the snipers and mortars. I made a few alterations to unit composition, it seems a lot more streamlined now.

I was looking at 60mm mortars but noticed the 82mm white phosphorous shells seem to produce a really good smoke screen. Also, I had trouble finding a 60mm mortar produced by the soviets that wasn't a ww2 leftover, that might be an error on my part

I am very aware of what Willy Pete does to people.

With regards to the NBC Team, its entirely based on my nation's history, basically they had a civil war and both sides had operational nuclear weapons. Which got used. A lot... When the dust settled there were (are) several warheads unaccounted for. The fear of nuclear suicide attacks, boobytraps and the like meant the NBC teams started getting a lot of specialized equipment and training. Post civil war, there was a fairly large group of very skilled operatives and significantly less nuclear threats to worry about. Now they get attached to units when circumstances require it. You will notice that while everyone else is using Cold-War hand-me-downs, they get actual modern equipment.

I was debating the DShK on the platoon level, it comes down to "use what you have," a company might not be able to get a SAM team but at least they got something, I am planning on designing my own weapons, but I kind of want to roleplay Kerberos' entry into the 21st century, because fun.

Probably something like the Yugoslav M57

Issuing GP-25s is another option but those grenades are shit.Probably stick with rifle-grenades if you need to blow something up within 150 to 400 meters and don't want to waste an RPG-7 on it.

[Gallia-]

Hey everyone, getting back into Nationstates after decade away from you cool people, decided to try organizing an army properly.

National history: Gained independence from Great Briton in the 1950s, then spent the cold war leaning towards the eastern sphere of influence, before being ripped apart by a really nasty civil war now the nation is rebuilding its army with the resources at hand.

I'm considering this as a first draft, there's a word document on my desktop where everything is being slowly hammered out

Light Infantry Company

3x platoons
Command Section
4x Support Sections (Sniper, Scout, 2x Mortar)

Command Section
Captain – Makarov Pm
1st Lieutenant – Makarov Pm
2x Communication Specialists – AKS-74U
Senior Medic – Makarov Pm

Sniper Support Section
Sergeant – AKS-74U
4x Sniper Teams
Sniper Team
1x Sniper – M40 Rifle (various models)
1x Spotter - FAL Para

Recon Support Section
Sergeant – AKS-74U
Communication Specialist – AKS-74U
Designated Marksman – FAL Mod 33 (modified FAL Para with heavy barrel, bipod and scope)
Corporal – FAL Para
6x troopers – 4x FAL Para, 2x Ithaca 37 or MTS12-21 shotguns



Mortar Section
Sergeant – AKS-74U
Communication Specialist – AKS-74U
6x mortarmen – 6x AKS-74U
1x 82mm BM-37 Mortar

Platoon

Platoon Headquarters section
1x HMG Team
1x Antitank Team
3x Rifles Sections

Platoon Headquarters
1st or 2nd Lieutenant – Makarov Pm
Platoon Sergeant – AKS-74U
Communication Specialist – AKS-74U
Platoon Medic – Makarov Pm

HMG team
Corporal – FAL Para
4x Troopers – FAL Para
1x DShK 12.7x108mm

Antitank Team
Corporal – FAL Para
5x troopers – FAL Para
2x RPG-7 Launchers


Rifle Section
Sergeant – AKS-74U
Corporal – FAL Para
Communication Specialist – AKS-74U
7 troopers – 5x FAL Para, 2x MG3 LMG

Support Elements
The following support elements are deployed on the company level at the discretion of battalion and army headquarters. After deployment they are under direct command of the company HQ who can assign operational command to specific platoon commanders as needed.

Mechanised Transport Section
Sergeant – AKS-74U
Communication Specialist – AKS-74U
5x Drivers (Trooper, Special)
5x Assistant Drivers (Trooper, Special)
10x Gunners (Trooper, Special)
5x ZIL-131 trucks (Equipped with a ring mounted DShK HMG or AGS-17 Grenade Launcher)

ATGM Team
Corporal – FAL Para
2x Troopers – FAL Para
1x AT-4 Spigot ATGM

“Ishtar” NBC Reaction Team
Team Lead, Acting Rank, Captain – Scorpion EVO3 SMG
9x Agents, Acting Rank, Sergeant - 2x KS-23M Shotguns, 9x Scorpion EVO3 SMGs
*Notes: Following the disastrous opening engagement of the civil war, teams specializing in NBC transportation and disposal are frequently deployed alongside conventional armed forces. Since order has been restored, they have expanded their role to include hostage rescue, sabotage and CQB operations.

Light SAM Team
Corporal – FAL Para
5x Troopers – FAL Para
3x 9k34 Strela-3 SAMs

A company doesn't need a sniper, unless you're using it in the trad sense and mean he's just a marksman I guess. That should be in the platoon and he should have a Dragunov or SR-25 or something similar to compliment the machine gun. In light infantry fighting, the machine gun produces a beaten zone to stop a rifle squad so your own squads can get close to them, and the sniper attacks point targets like machine gunners or anti-tank missileers at the same range as the machine gun. They compliment each other. Replace the snipers with something useful like a medical aid team of a pair of EMT ORs and a paramedic-sergeant for the company CCP.

The entire command team of the company should have rifles, not pistols. Captains fight, just like sergeants, and lieutenants are just over-educated PFCs and should be considered absolutely replaceable in any context. There is no reason either of them should have pistols except as symbols of authority/vanity I guess.

The recon team definitely doesn't need shotguns. They would probably prefer silenced weapons like the AS VAL. Not sure if your company is supposed to fight independent of a battalion or not though, but reconnaissance troops generally don't like shooting stuff as a rule. They should have more radios and work in pairs, or triplets, not in sextuples, and maybe give them motorcycles for each guy.

Add between 1-3 more mortars and make it a section of 2 82mms or a platoon of 4. One mortar is nothing and no one will notice it. Two or four is actually useful, but since this company has so much dismounted firepower I'm not sure if it's actually motorized, so if they're supposed to carry that shit they should have 60mm's instead. Keep the same number of people either case, but load more ammo onto a 60mm mortar team obviously.

The platoon doesn't want a HMG team. Replace it with a pair of light machine guns or something. That will be more useful. Two MG3s is too many machine guns for a rifle section. 11 men can just about operate a single light machine gun al a MG42 and still be a "rifle" section. That's a machine gun squad, not a rifle squad. The platoon should have three rifle sections at least, four at most, and a machine gun section with two medium machine guns and at least 9 people (four for each machine gun (gunner, asst, bearer, leader) and a section NCO).

DShK also is far, far too heavy to be a manportable weapon. The gun alone weighs more than most medium machine guns. It would need to be towed by a car or something instead (I think actual SGMs and DShKs used donkeys or horses) and I'm assuming since these guys carry a DShK they don't have that, right? Kord is the actual man portable heavy machine gun. The NSV is similarly skeletonized but AFAIK lacks a bipod and has higher recoil, although the tripod version can be broken down into three two pieces. A 6P50-1 team is about five people and carries around 150-200 rounds of ammo in 50-round belts (maybe one ammo bearer has two and a PM and the assistant has a spare barrel and a third belt) and the machine gun itself with bipod. An NSV would need to be broken down into gun and tripod, but a Kord can be carried by one guy with iron determination or an angry NCO behind him. Of course both the NSV and Kord have removable barrels so you would break it down into two or three man-packs.

The rifle section is weird and should probably have a Bren gun and a RPG-7 if you want to integrate some heavy weapons with 7-men. That's about as much as you'll be able to fit, with maybe the sergeant getting a HK79 or something. The anti-tank team can be a Spigot team or something with 5-7 people with one or two rounds and a CLU and tripod broken down amongst four load carriers and an NCO plus maybe an assistant, and should be in the company with the HMG, if you must have it. Three rifle squads with a Bren gun, RPG-7, HK79, and five automatic rifles will give you much more firepower than your current platoon and be more flexible in general, as well as more normal. There's no reason to have the RPG-7s separate from the rifle squads, since it was literally made for motor rifle squads.

SAM team should just be two or three people, not 9. One guy with a launcher and he has a round of ammo in the truck in each platoon in a crate or something. Or it should be a three or four man team in the company that has a missile or two and a single CLU.

If these guys are walking places you're going to have get rid of heavy useless stuff like the HMGs and medium mortars, and replace them with large squads (5-9 men per gun) with light mortars (~60mm) and medium machine guns (MG3 with tripod and 1000 rnds of ammo) instead. No one is going to be walking 12 miles a day with that or whatever. They'd need pack animals at least and probably motor transport in general for that type of equipment. If they aren't walking places and have actual organic motor transport that isn't tied to the battalion, i.e. the battalion has enough trucks to move itself without walking, then they will have these things but the heavy stuff (mortars, dedicated anti-armor teams, and HMGs) will be in the company mounted on the trucks on skates.