NS Military Worldbuilding Thread No. 12

[Gallia-]

The first step is realizing that you can't dodge a bullet.

It's pre-emptive dodging, that's explained in the link.

You don't "pre-emptively dodge". You can't deliberately "dodge" a bullet, you can just reduce your chances of being hit. Running in weird zig zags doesn't make a lot of sense to do this.

Running directly as fast as possible behind a wall or to a crater (or just some tall grass or a bush) and flopping down to break line of sight works. So does getting up and running for a brief period between bits of concealment or cover between you and something you're attacking. You don't really want to be exposed to gunfire for more than a couple seconds because that means someone might start shooting at you, obviously. You'll be flopping down every three or five seconds or whatever and looking for bits of cover that you can run to in that time while flopped down.

Even Call of Duty players know this lol.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

Are military personnel likely to rebel if 80% of them can’t vote?

(E.g. if a political knowledge test is required that the majority don’t pass).

I think not (because they didn’t rebel that often from 1760–1913)

The easy answer is no.

The actual answer is collective action theory.

The general framework is something like:

• A certain grievance is widespread in a population
• One or more individuals develop strong opinions ("do something") on this issue arise in the population and begin to socially recruit others
• Dense social groups, social groups where most members interact with most other members, gradually convert to the new position ("do something about it")
• When enough dense social groups, cells you might call them, are converted nearly the whole population converts
• At this point they begin to "do something" like mutiny

Outstanding grievances can be analogized as the humidity in a forest. The drier it is, the more likely it will be to burn if there is a spark. Grievances of some kind in a military unit are a necessary condition but not a sufficient condition for a mutiny to occur. The spark though comes from individuals, agitators, if you will, whose strong commitment to this grievance starts the fire.

So something happens, say someone writes a pamphlet "It sucks not being to vote, kill your officers". Many agitators, soldiers who feel its very bad they cannot vote, in their cells of like-minded agitators read this pamphlet and think "great idea let's kill our officers". If there are a high enough concentration of cells which activate in a particular unit, it is likely that whole unit will mutiny.

An important fact is here for most soldiers (and most people) on most issues most of the time the amount of social reinforcement they receive for a particular behaviour determines if they will adopt it - they won't be willing to mutiny until enough people in their social circle of fellow soldiers seem like they will also mutiny, but when they do they will mutiny. So the (social, who talks to who) density of cells of people who feel very strongly about a particular grievance will be the principal independent variable in how likely a unit is to mutiny.

And the density cells will depend on how strongly the population of soldiers feels about the issue (stronger feelings = more people with strong opinions), pre-existing social networks which might be co-opted (catholic soldiers in a protestant army for example who would already be inclined to form social networks within their units) , existing religious/political movements which might be recruiting soldiers to form cells for agitation already (socialist parties for example) and many other essentially random considerations like the relationships between officers/enlisted, between different groups of soldiers and so forth in particular units.

Or more simply, like a forest fire, it is fairly easy to predict where a mutiny could occur, but nearly impossible to say when exactly it will occur, what exactly will set it off or how far it will spread through a force or really if it will start at all.

You kinda just summarized the mutiny aboard the Battleship Potemkin back in 1905.

[The Manticoran Empire]

It's pre-emptive dodging, that's explained in the link.

You don't "pre-emptively dodge". You can't deliberately "dodge" a bullet, you can just reduce your chances of being hit. Running in weird zig zags doesn't make a lot of sense to do this.

Running directly as fast as possible behind a wall or to a crater (or just some tall grass or a bush) and flopping down to break line of sight works. So does getting up and running for a brief period between bits of concealment or cover between you and something you're attacking. You don't really want to be exposed to gunfire for more than a couple seconds because that means someone might start shooting at you, obviously. You'll be flopping down every three or five seconds or whatever and looking for bits of cover that you can run to in that time while flopped down.

Even Call of Duty players know this lol.

"I AM UP! HE SEES ME! I AM DOWN!"

Rinse and repeat until you are close enough to frag the shit out of whoever is trying to kill you.

[Dtn]

"I AM UP! HE SEES ME! I AM DOWN!"

Rinse and repeat until you are close enough to frag the shit out of whoever is trying to kill you.

I think I'd rather take my chances with dodging

you guys are getting played btw

[Gallia-]

I can run very fast but I'm also blind as a bat so I just shoot from the hip.

Very powerful high energy.

Honk force.

[Lauzanne]

This isn't how you should google things. Use keywords rather than full sentences. Important words sometimes can be thrown into quotes (This ommits results which do not include that keyword.) Read past the first page, throw in things like "pdf" if you want to find studies. In this case you probably aren't going to find anything about "dodging" but you will find things about actual infantry tactics which are much more useful to read if you want to actually write realistic scenarios which I assume is why you're in this thread?

I want to use realistic dodging tactics.

As the Rolling Stones say, you can't always get what you want.

Also that Munkchester dude's reasoning is just "luck lol" which is neither smart to do or realistic.

[Crookfur]

As dtn pointed out you just walked right in and jumped on the bait.

He's linking to his own post...

[Immoren]

I can run very fast but I'm also blind as a bat so I just shoot from the hip.

Very powerful high energy.

Honk force.

I don't know what about being 2:3 makes me wonder, does it work as part of BTN or do raiders function as "independent combined arms detachment built around raider company"?

[Nationalist Northumbria]

I want to use realistic dodging tactics.

As the Rolling Stones say, you can't always get what you want.

Also that Munkchester dude's reasoning is just "luck lol" which is neither smart to do or realistic.

I am Munkchester (as Crookfur points out, though while unfairly accusing me when I was looking for serious sources in the right place with the most knowledgeable peple), so I am perfectly aware of the contents of my post, thank you, though I understand if you and The Corparation (whose description of my RP as an 'obvious joke' I am offended by) in fact know them better than the original author (me).

[Crookfur]

Oh I'm sure someone at Cambridge/Oxford/ucla/Stafford has done a paper where they threw balls at people. I doubt any produced statistical evidence of an ability to dodge.

If you are at all serious them you need to do a deep dive into the various programs that have studied "human potential" over the years.

So stuff like the 1st earth battalion, remote viewing, project stargate and the reams of precognition research.

In short if it's in the public domain it's regarded as nonsense but who knows what the super secret MK ultra black helicopter battalions of men who share at goats are hiding.

[The Corparation]

"I AM UP! HE SEES ME! I AM DOWN!"

Rinse and repeat until you are close enough to frag the shit out of whoever is trying to kill you.

I think I'd rather take my chances with dodging

you guys are getting played btw

We know but it's not like this thread has anything better to do.

[Gallia-]

I can run very fast but I'm also blind as a bat so I just shoot from the hip.

Very powerful high energy.

Honk force.

I don't know what about being 2:3 makes me wonder, does it work as part of BTN or do raiders function as "independent combined arms detachment built around raider company"?

It's actually three platoons but the amphibians are treated like trucks. Also the latter.

Raider battalions are austere Marine units who live in a Kiev sized amphibious ship and blow things up.

[Immoren]

I don't know what about being 2:3 makes me wonder, does it work as part of BTN or do raiders function as "independent combined arms detachment built around raider company"?

It's actually three platoons but the amphibians are treated like trucks. Also the latter.

Raider battalions are austere Marine units who live in a Kiev sized amphibious ship and blow things up.

Oh. I should've gone through amphibious sections dudes more carefully, so that would've been more clearer I guess. lol
Thought it was like vehicles for 3 platoon sized elements without dismounts.

[Gallia-]

No they just transport a rifle company to the beach. They can fight, since their little turrets have 25mm Bushmaster and a pair of Javelin missiles, but they're pretty big and not well armored (14.5mm) to begin with. There's also a dozen V-22s for transporting the other two companies and a pair of hovercraft for the tank platoons. I'm adding a fast attack vehicle platoon to the Mechanical Company that is transported in CH-53s and that should finish it off. Other things in the air wing are: 6 or 8 P.1216s, 3-9 YAH-63s, 3 UH-1s. It might lose the gunships though IDK.

Compared to a normal Marine battalion it has about a third of the amphibians, no Marine weapons company, no towed howitzers or multiple rocket launchers, fewer "trucks with AGLs", and two fewer tank platoons. The "Raider cruiser" has a pair of double barrel Crusader turrets (four 152mm tubes) and a M270-based rocket launcher turret though, so it provides the artillery. They also, somewhat implied, have a lot fewer logistics capacity and can't really fight for long periods.

The hard part about this is finding a ship big enough to hold all the aircraft I guess lol. Baku/Admiral Gorshkov seems to fit the bill OK though.

I guess unlike the normal Marine battalions, who have about three 20 to 40,000 ton amphibious ship and three to six escorts, the Raider battalion has a single 40-50,000 amphibious ship and a single escort or two.

In practice their specialized ships are probably just filled to the brim with fighter-bombers and helicopter gunships and the cruiser gets used as a mobile firebase.

[The Manticoran Empire]

"I AM UP! HE SEES ME! I AM DOWN!"

Rinse and repeat until you are close enough to frag the shit out of whoever is trying to kill you.

I think I'd rather take my chances with dodging

you guys are getting played btw

Getting played? When you are sitting here suggesting that you can dodge something moving at supersonic speeds?

[Lauzanne]

As the Rolling Stones say, you can't always get what you want.

Also that Munkchester dude's reasoning is just "luck lol" which is neither smart to do or realistic.

I am Munkchester (as Crookfur points out, though while unfairly accusing me when I was looking for serious sources in the right place with the most knowledgeable peple), so I am perfectly aware of the contents of my post, thank you, though I understand if you and The Corparation (whose description of my RP as an 'obvious joke' I am offended by) in fact know them better than the original author (me).

Okay lol, well it doesn't work and it isn't thought out past "luck lol". The reason there's no papers on "just dodge lol" being used in combat is because on no level it works. Maybe in Equilibrium or the Matrix. But not "realistically".

[Dayganistan]

The solution to not getting shot is to put something that bullets can't go through between you and the shooter. And if you need to move exposed to fire you'll do it under suppressive fire and/or smokescreen so the enemy is too busy worrying about not getting shot or can't see you to put accurate fire on you. Not sure where or how there's any argument to be made for dodging a bullet beyond extreme luck. There's a reason any sort of combat training is going to emphasize cover and putting yourself in view of the enemy for as little time as possible. If you somehow know how to dodge a bullet, DEVGRU instructors would like to know your location. A modern intermediate cartridge has a muzzle velocity approaching 1 kilometer per second, you're not just jumping out of the way of that after someone pulls the trigger.

[The Manticoran Empire]

The solution to not getting shot is to put something that bullets can't go through between you and the shooter. And if you need to move exposed to fire you'll do it under suppressive fire and/or smokescreen so the enemy is too busy worrying about not getting shot or can't see you to put accurate fire on you. Not sure where or how there's any argument to be made for dodging a bullet beyond extreme luck. There's a reason any sort of combat training is going to emphasize cover and putting yourself in view of the enemy for as little time as possible. If you somehow know how to dodge a bullet, DEVGRU instructors would like to know your location. A modern intermediate cartridge has a muzzle velocity approaching 1 kilometer per second, you're not just jumping out of the way of that after someone pulls the trigger.

The Discovery Channel show Mythbusters actually tested that. At the ranges where you can dodge a bullet, you can't see the muzzle flash. At ranges where you can see the muzzle flash, you can't dodge.

[Dtn]

I think I'd rather take my chances with dodging

you guys are getting played btw

Getting played? When you are sitting here suggesting that you can dodge something moving at supersonic speeds?

Keeping in mind moderation history, why would someone in this thread suggest you can dodge something moving at supersonic speed?

Why did an alt post a wall of troll faces in this and a few other threads after Santheres popped in for a chat? What did these threads have in common?

Probably best to take Santheres' advice.

[Barfleur]

If you want to dodge a bullet, it's really not that hard. You just need to dodge at supersonic speeds.

The solution to not getting shot is to put something that bullets can't go through between you and the shooter. And if you need to move exposed to fire you'll do it under suppressive fire and/or smokescreen so the enemy is too busy worrying about not getting shot or can't see you to put accurate fire on you. Not sure where or how there's any argument to be made for dodging a bullet beyond extreme luck. There's a reason any sort of combat training is going to emphasize cover and putting yourself in view of the enemy for as little time as possible. If you somehow know how to dodge a bullet, DEVGRU instructors would like to know your location. A modern intermediate cartridge has a muzzle velocity approaching 1 kilometer per second, you're not just jumping out of the way of that after someone pulls the trigger.

The Discovery Channel show Mythbusters actually tested that. At the ranges where you can dodge a bullet, you can't see the muzzle flash. At ranges where you can see the muzzle flash, you can't dodge.

That sounds interesting, I think I'll take a look. It's one of those things where the answer makes total sense and appears obvious, but I don't know how they figured it out.

[Nationalist Northumbria]

Getting played? When you are sitting here suggesting that you can dodge something moving at supersonic speeds?

Keeping in mind moderation history, why would someone in this thread suggest you can dodge something moving at supersonic speed?

Why did an alt post a wall of troll faces in this and a few other threads after Santheres popped in for a chat? What did these threads have in common?

Probably best to take Santheres' advice.

While to a certain extent I have to appreciate them, I am afraid I have to inform you that your speculations are entirely incorrect. I was not behind the troll face spamming, and I would tell you the same offsite (where admitting it (and I do admit my supposed misdeeds) would carry no risk of punishment) for the simple reason that I was not behind it.

[Gallia-]

There's also a Marine Logistics Company but I haven't worked out what it actually is yet. It may just be maintenance shops or something for the raider battalion, or it might have some utility vehicles like motorcycles and trucks that can be used by the raiders if they need to refuel their amphibians or something.

The last amphibian section has two recovery tracks and two anti-surf zone mine breachers with 24-round FAE rocket launchers for clearing the beach of surface laid mines. Because the amtrack is 3x faster than a normal AAV (30 mph vs 10 mph) it has a 2 km range instead of 200 meters. That's also entirely so it can be used as an amphibious TOS-1.

Air wing is: 16x MV-22, 12x AV-12/DF-314F, 2x UH-1, and however many P.1216s can be crammed aboard which seems to be around 8-10 or so.

[Dtn]

While to a certain extent I have to appreciate them, I am afraid I have to inform you that your speculations are entirely incorrect. I was not behind the troll face spamming, and I would tell you the same offsite (where admitting it (and I do admit my supposed misdeeds) would carry no risk of punishment) for the simple reason that I was not behind it.

just communing with the noosphere here

(Image)

(Image)

There's also a Marine Logistics Company but I haven't worked out what it actually is yet. It may just be maintenance shops or something for the raider battalion, or it might have some utility vehicles like motorcycles and trucks that can be used by the raiders if they need to refuel their amphibians or something.

The last amphibian section has two recovery tracks and two anti-surf zone mine breachers with rocket launched FAEs for clearing the beach zone. Because the amtrack is 3x faster than a normal AAV (30 mph vs 10 mph) it has a 2 km range instead of 200 meters.

no lasers
no statodynes

[Gallia-]

raiders dont have enough room on their shitty through-deck cruiser for lasers SADLY

itll be something ill consider for the full size amphibian company tho for reals

statodynes are something sandal serbian/susan would use i guess

[Hrstrovokia]

What's the best low cost Ground Attack option - manned or unmanned?