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Rosmana
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Postby Rosmana » Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:48 am

Gallia- wrote:Buying F-35 or S-400 is quite literally a "political issue". That's the whole point.

South Korea got KM-SAM because Russia owned them oodles of money from the Cold War. They got two battalions worth of T-80/BMP-3 that they use for aggressor training in 1995 and 2005. They got an IRBM made for them (Hyunmoo-2), and some helicopters (Ka-32s), and could have potentially got an attack helicopter (I think it was a development of Ka-50) too. The USA has very few problems, if any, with selling F-35 to ROKAF because it produces its own equipment and it's not very likely to run off and sell it to the Russians in exchange for industrial assistance. The South Koreans would be helping the Russians with their industry, like they did in the Cold War, and like what got the Russians so indebted to the USSR/Russia in the first place. Now Russia is trying to act like ROK is India and squeeze them for more contracts but the line of debit seems to be running dry.

OTOH Turkey is probably more likely to sell a single F-35 to Russia, and then take F-35 apart and make their own F-35 with hookers and blow.

And it's more than a buy, you need advisors in your military to train your personal how to operate and man such systems and aircraft, and that means they have a very reliable way of spying or otherwise attaining sensitive military information while they are on site.
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Spirit of Hope
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Postby Spirit of Hope » Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:50 am

Langenia wrote:
New Vihenia wrote:The problem between S-400 and F-35 is mainly political in nature than technical. Same problem happened here in my country, where Su-35 would supposedly live happily together with AMRAAM's and upgraded F-16's which US doesnt like to see.


It's really just because it's Turkey I imagine.

USA has no problems selling F-35 to ROKAF who operate plenty of Russian systems since they were able to get a lot of work for Russian firms in exchange for debt relief in the late 1990's. KM-SAM, the entire BMP-3/T-80U OPFOR battalion (and some replacement parts in 2005), and a few other things are the result. Really makes you think how much the Russians owe Korea.


So you're telling me, that if I went "Forget what the US thinks," somehow managed to get both systems and theoretically avoided the political issues, I could have both systems?

Yes. You would have to spend some time doing integration work to get the radars, battlefield management systems, and other stuff to talk to each other.
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Gallia-
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Gallia- » Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:52 am

That's incredibly trivial yes.

Again, South Korea has no troubles operating Russian and American equipment in the same airspace lol. For that matter, neither does Poland, Romania, or Czechia, if we want to talk about MiG-29 and MiG-21.
Last edited by Gallia- on Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Langenia
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Postby Langenia » Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:52 am

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Triplebaconation
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Postby Triplebaconation » Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:00 pm

Gallia- wrote:That's incredibly trivial yes.

Again, South Korea has no troubles operating Russian and American equipment in the same airspace lol. For that matter, neither does Poland, Romania, or Czechia, if we want to talk about MiG-29 and MiG-21.


An even better example might be Iraq, whose Thomson-CSF KARI system integrated Western and Soviet radars, aircraft, and air defenses with a British battle management system.

Needless to say, the Coalition had decent information about this system in 1991.

The S-400 is designed to be easily networked and unlike a gentoo installation collects sensitive information by nature. There's a possibility it could be patched to send this information to a node operated by Russian intelligence if this isn't already an undocumented feature.
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Husseinarti
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Postby Husseinarti » Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:42 pm

Gallia- wrote:SAMs are so typically useless they could not fire a single missile and no one would notice.


if a sam site in the woods fired a missile and nobody was around

would anyone notice it
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Rosmana
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Postby Rosmana » Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:57 pm

Just curious here, but why would my country, The Netherlands, need a jet like the F-35, when we do not even have MBT,s?

Not judging, I just can not follow the logic.....
Last edited by Rosmana on Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Romextly
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Postby Romextly » Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:04 pm

Rosmana wrote:Just curious here, but why would my country, The Netherlands, need a jet like the F-35, when we do not even have MBT,s?

Not judging, I just can not follow the logic.....

Well right now there really isnt a use for mbts in western europe

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Rosmana
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Postby Rosmana » Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:07 pm

Romextly wrote:
Rosmana wrote:Just curious here, but why would my country, The Netherlands, need a jet like the F-35, when we do not even have MBT,s?

Not judging, I just can not follow the logic.....

Well right now there really isnt a use for mbts in western europe

Really, with all those the Russians have?, what are going to stop them with? :unsure:
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Romextly
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Postby Romextly » Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:08 pm

Rosmana wrote:
Romextly wrote:Well right now there really isnt a use for mbts in western europe

Really, with all those the Russians have?, what are going to stop them with? :unsure:

Well an attempt by the russians is unlikely and mostly only large nations and eastern European coubtries really need it

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Rosmana
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Postby Rosmana » Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:10 pm

Romextly wrote:
Rosmana wrote:Really, with all those the Russians have?, what are going to stop them with? :unsure:

Well an attempt by the russians is unlikely and mostly only large nations and eastern European coubtries really need it

Then why does the Netherlands, an insignificant speck, have equipment like the F-35, which is WAY more expensive? :unsure:
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Romextly
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Postby Romextly » Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:12 pm

Rosmana wrote:
Romextly wrote:Well an attempt by the russians is unlikely and mostly only large nations and eastern European coubtries really need it

Then why does the Netherlands, an insignificant speck, have equipment like the F-35, which is WAY more expensive? :unsure:

Its more useful in modern warfare

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Rosmana
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Postby Rosmana » Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:14 pm

Romextly wrote:
Rosmana wrote:Then why does the Netherlands, an insignificant speck, have equipment like the F-35, which is WAY more expensive? :unsure:

Its more useful in modern warfare

Yes, for larger nations, why does the Netherlands need them? :)
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The Manticoran Empire
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Postby The Manticoran Empire » Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:16 pm

Rosmana wrote:
Romextly wrote:Its more useful in modern warfare

Yes, for larger nations, why does the Netherlands need them? :)

The Netherlands apparently believes that F-35 is worth the cost.
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Rosmana
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Postby Rosmana » Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:17 pm

The Manticoran Empire wrote:
Rosmana wrote:Yes, for larger nations, why does the Netherlands need them? :)

The Netherlands apparently believes that F-35 is worth the cost.

It was hardly a choice though, if they said no it would have cost them even more, we have Dutch word for that.

Wurgcontract, meaning they where forced.
Last edited by Rosmana on Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Manticoran Empire
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Postby The Manticoran Empire » Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:23 pm

Rosmana wrote:
The Manticoran Empire wrote:The Netherlands apparently believes that F-35 is worth the cost.

It was hardly a choice though, if they said no it would have cost them even more, we have Dutch word for that.

Wurgcontract, meaning they where forced.

I'm not Dutch, rather I'm an American. As such, I'm not very familiar with the strategic questions asked by the Dutch government. However, what I can say is that the F-35 offers a substantially wider array of capabilities. It's low radar signature increases survivability, which is important considering NATOs apparent shift towards great power competion again. It is also an aircraft being employed by several NATO countries, which likely improves the logistical question, making it more appealing. Furthermore, it is by most accounts a very good aircraft to fly, as well as one with considerable tactical flexibility. When one adds that to the fact that the other fighters the Netherlands operates are over 30 years old, it makes sense that the Netherlands would seek a modern replacement aircraft.
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Rosmana
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Postby Rosmana » Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:28 pm

The Manticoran Empire wrote:
Rosmana wrote:It was hardly a choice though, if they said no it would have cost them even more, we have Dutch word for that.

Wurgcontract, meaning they where forced.

I'm not Dutch, rather I'm an American. As such, I'm not very familiar with the strategic questions asked by the Dutch government. However, what I can say is that the F-35 offers a substantially wider array of capabilities. It's low radar signature increases survivability, which is important considering NATOs apparent shift towards great power competion again. It is also an aircraft being employed by several NATO countries, which likely improves the logistical question, making it more appealing. Furthermore, it is by most accounts a very good aircraft to fly, as well as one with considerable tactical flexibility. When one adds that to the fact that the other fighters the Netherlands operates are over 30 years old, it makes sense that the Netherlands would seek a modern replacement aircraft.

Sure, but it's not just about the Dutch government, they were clearly forced into it, like during the Lockheed scandal, when they bribed prince Bernhard, but I doubt you have heard about that, since, well, we are rather small and unimportant, and there are plenty of other planes, like the Grippen.

An why would the Netherlands need such an advanced jet, when other, bigger countries, with better economies, have refused?
Last edited by Rosmana on Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:50 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Dayganistan
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Postby Dayganistan » Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:43 pm

Rosmana wrote:Sure, but it's not just about the Dutch government, they were clearly forced into it, like during the Lockheed scandal, when they bribed prince Bernhard, but I doubt you have heard about that, since, well, we are rather small and unimportant, and there are plenty of other planes, like the Grippen.

An why would the Netherlands need such an advanced jet, when other, bigger countries, with better economies, have refused?


The whole point of NATO, at least in theory, is so its members can contribute to common defense. The Netherlands obviously feels it can contribute to that mission better with the F-35. As do other smaller NATO members like Belgium and Norway.

The F-35 is also probably going to become the next F-16, which was also exported to a huge number of NATO countries when it was still new cutting edge tech in the 80s.
Last edited by Dayganistan on Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rosmana
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Postby Rosmana » Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:49 pm

Dayganistan wrote:
Rosmana wrote:Sure, but it's not just about the Dutch government, they were clearly forced into it, like during the Lockheed scandal, when they bribed prince Bernhard, but I doubt you have heard about that, since, well, we are rather small and unimportant, and there are plenty of other planes, like the Grippen.

An why would the Netherlands need such an advanced jet, when other, bigger countries, with better economies, have refused?


The whole point of NATO, at least in theory, is so its members can contribute to common defense. The Netherlands obviously feels it can contribute to that mission better with the F-35. As do other smaller NATO members like Belgium and Norway.

The F-35 is also probably going to become the next F-16, which was also exported to a huge number of NATO countries when it was still new cutting edge tech in the 80s.

Well, maybe, there were other choices, plus the bribes in the past make the whole deal rather sketchy.

And you make it sound like it was a choice by the Netherlands, and really, I doubt that very much.
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Dayganistan
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Postby Dayganistan » Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:10 pm

Rosmana wrote:
And you make it sound like it was a choice by the Netherlands, and really, I doubt that very much.

Nobody went to the Netherlands and said "buy F-35 or get out of NATO." My country, Canada, is also looking to purchase new fighters and the US isn't hovering over us forcing us to buy the F-35, or even an American made aircraft in general.

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Rosmana
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Postby Rosmana » Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:14 pm

Dayganistan wrote:
Rosmana wrote:
And you make it sound like it was a choice by the Netherlands, and really, I doubt that very much.

Nobody went to the Netherlands and said "buy F-35 or get out of NATO." My country, Canada, is also looking to purchase new fighters and the US isn't hovering over us forcing us to buy the F-35, or even an American made aircraft in general.

I still think the US government used bribes to get the contract for Lockheed, like they did with the Starfighter and the F-16.

And that is not an opinion, that is a fact.

And it makes sense, since the US government will not admit there are secret nuclear warheads on the Volkel air force base, and our government can not, or does not want to talk even about it, they neither confirm nor deny it.

Edit: I just can not think of any other reason why they did it the way they did.
Last edited by Rosmana on Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Triplebaconation
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Postby Triplebaconation » Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:27 pm

Lockheed has a more sophisticated method than bribing these days. By sourcing parts from Dutch industry it ensures there's always internal political pressure to procure F-35s.
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Miku the Based
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Postby Miku the Based » Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:28 pm

It would make sense for a power to threaten sanctions on other products if they don't get their way and a lesser power already economically dependent on them to feel threatened or coerced into doing so but I have no knowledge on the low lands to know if that was the case or not.
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Rosmana
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Postby Rosmana » Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:33 pm

Triplebaconation wrote:Lockheed has a more sophisticated method than bribing these days. By sourcing parts from Dutch industry it ensures there's always internal political pressure to procure F-35s.

Is that not another form of corruption?, it feels like Coercion, and I think they probably bribed PM Jan Peter Balkenende at the time. :ugeek:

I mean what is in it for US?, what do we gain?

I could be wrong though, but things like this really make me HATE my own country.
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