NS Military Worldbuilding Thread No. 12

[Triplebaconation]

Imagine marching through fire for a mile to give 'em hell with your Henry rifle.

lol

[Gallia-]

lol

That isn't an answer.

Then look at the difference between a .45-70 and a .56-56, or a Volcanic, cartridge.

One is a rifle cartridge. The others could be mistaken for a pocket revolver cartridge.

Lever actions disappeared because they were poor in ballistics until the 1880's or so, and infantrymen never really could make use of them even in the age of the rifled musket. By the time the breech loading rifle appears you're engaging point targets at ranges 3-4 times that of the 1860s rifled muskets, which were about equal or slightly greater than something like a Henry or Spencer rifle, and only really useful for cavalrymen who could close the distance quickly. By the time they appear again in serious quantity people have already discovered the Spitzer bullet, bolt-action operation, and vertical stack box magazine, which are common in rifles like the Gw88 and those inspired by it, and only the early adopters of repeating bolt actions, like the French, were stuck with tube magazines.

Lever actions are, depending on the period, either a very expensive competitor to a rifled musket or a really really lame alternative to a bolt action.

[The Manticoran Empire]

That isn't an answer.

Then look at the difference between a .45-70 and a .56-56, or a Volcanic, cartridge.

One is a rifle cartridge. The others could be mistaken for a pocket revolver cartridge.

Lever actions disappeared because they were poor in ballistics until the 1880's or so, and infantrymen never really could make use of them even in the age of the rifled musket. By the time the breech loading rifle appears you're engaging point targets at ranges 3-4 times that of the 1860s rifled muskets, which were about equal or slightly greater than something like a Henry or Spencer rifle, and only really useful for cavalrymen who could close the distance quickly. By the time they appear again in serious quantity people have already discovered the Spitzer bullet, bolt-action operation, and vertical stack box magazine, which are common in rifles like the Gw88 and those inspired by it, and only the early adopters of repeating bolt actions, like the French, were stuck with tube magazines.

Lever actions are, depending on the period, either a very expensive competitor to a rifled musket or a really really lame alternative to a bolt action.

And exactly how many times did effective engagements occur at 300 to 400 yards?

[Gallia-]

lol

Being generous the best lever action would just be a slightly more wrist-hurty version of a bolt action.

I guess you'd have really powerful typists or something.

Unfortunately 1.23428178% of your infantry would end up with broken wrists trying to operate the lever action one handed.

[Puzikas]

fair but my point is more lever actions were already bought, trialed, tested in combat, and rejected by the us army, so the us army "adopting" lever actions in the 1870s would be a step backwards v:

And what evidence do you have to suggest that a lever gun is a step backwards from a single shot trapdoor with extraction issues?

Lever actions had extractions issues too!
Most lever action rifles were prohibitively expensive and by the time they made it to the market where they were a competitor to other existing rifles at that time, they were generally poor competitors to bolt action rifles and existed in a razor thin niche of 1879-1886. There's a literal 7 year period where lever actions almost make sense as a standard issue weapon.

Lever rifles were actually issued, but usually in very niche roles and very rarely were successful st them. The siege of Plevna is arguably the most influential battle of infantry tactics and weapons design of the modern era and it was basically all because of Winchester lever action rifles, but no military really scrambled and adopted commercially available lever rifles. And it's not like there weren't efforts to make and market lever rifles to world militaries, they just perpetually came up short in range, reliability, and accuracy of fire. The advent of magazines on rifles was trialed and adopted in favor of them because of range and reliability issues inherited in lever rifles designs.

Engagement range at this time was still outside of the effective engagement range of something like .44 Henry rimfire or .44 Volcanic (which is a horrendously anemic cartridge). The limitations of a gun are not just ballistic but also related to the individual shooter, and a man under stress of combat would like as little of margin as error as possible, and would prefer to not find himself having to remember that his rifles trajectory is that of a rainbow.

Lever rifles had their place. It was niche and it was valid, but it was not a suitable weapon for primary adoption.


E2A: also if interested I can go into inherit issues with accuracy issues that lever rifles had but it's a bit advanced.

[Triplebaconation]

Osman Pasha sez the Turkish infantry didn't use Winchesters at Plevna - their influence on the battle is probably over-rated.

Then look at the difference between a .45-70 and a .56-56, or a Volcanic, cartridge.

One is a rifle cartridge. The others could be mistaken for a pocket revolver cartridge.

Lever actions disappeared because they were poor in ballistics until the 1880's or so, and infantrymen never really could make use of them even in the age of the rifled musket. By the time the breech loading rifle appears you're engaging point targets at ranges 3-4 times that of the 1860s rifled muskets, which were about equal or slightly greater than something like a Henry or Spencer rifle, and only really useful for cavalrymen who could close the distance quickly. By the time they appear again in serious quantity people have already discovered the Spitzer bullet, bolt-action operation, and vertical stack box magazine, which are common in rifles like the Gw88 and those inspired by it, and only the early adopters of repeating bolt actions, like the French, were stuck with tube magazines.

Lever actions are, depending on the period, either a very expensive competitor to a rifled musket or a really really lame alternative to a bolt action.

And exactly how many times did effective engagements occur at 300 to 400 yards?

The range requirements for infantry combat weren't much different than today. The difference is that massed rifle fire had to do all the jobs expected of various infantry support weapons today.

A 19th century infantry rifle had to be suitable for everything from hand to hand combat (lever actions not so good) to suppressing formations at 2000 yards (lever actions not so good).

[Puzikas]

They probably are over rated (but honestly it's convenient to point to) but they were probably used. I have read Russian accounts of their use at Plevna, or possibly it's a case of mistaken identity on either side?

Regardless though there's a lot of reason very few lever rifles were ever used in service

[Triplebaconation]

The 1000 cavalry or so there probably had Winchesters. Von Herbert doesn't mention them either but I think he had an infantry company.

[Puzikas]

There definitely weren't many to say the least

[Gallia-]

when the winchester 1895 is literally just tsarist boomer generals gushing over russo-turkish war

[Purpelia]

On the topic of lever rifles imagine the following alt history scenario:

The last big war ends in the early 19th century. So like there are NO wars in the region between Napoleon and WW1. There is also a big period of detente with army budgets getting slashed followed by a world economic crisis that in combination last until about 1880. Small arms rearmament does not really start until the mid to late 1880's when everyone realizes they might need to do something... also smokeless powder comes along. And the nation that develops it goes all in with a smokeless, magazine fed repeating rifle. Basically a Lebel but with a loading gate like lever actions. This scares the shit out of everyone since most of the weapons in inventory are in fact muzzle loading at this point so at that point everyone and their grandma rushes to adopt anything they can make, develop or buy up from the commercial market just so that they can keep up.

Would adopting a commercial lever rifle design which is totally not (yes it is) a clone of the Winchester 1895 make sense on the ground that it exists, exists right now and we have a factory ready to make them already. The "we" being one of the fictional neighbors of mine.


And yes, this is actually the excuse I want to use to have WW1 use a whole variety of weird and wonderful rifles like lever actions, revolver rifles and other junk.

[Gallia-]

an 1895 only makes sense if youre dumb, senile, and think that dragoon mosin isnt cool because it's not something you shot at the turks in 1877 when you were a cavalry coronet

[Triplebaconation]

The Latvians were pretty cool

[Purpelia]

an 1895 only makes sense if youre dumb, senile, and think that dragoon mosin isnt cool because it's not something you shot at the turks in 1877 when you were a cavalry coronet

Basically in my setting nobody really took notice of bolt action rifles until the 1890's because the commercial market didn't care for them and military spending didn't exist so we skipped over stuff like trapdoors and needle guns. So like the new fangled bolt action thing was compared to stuff already in existence and well proven like lever actions and revolver rifles and some people went with what they knew and could produce.

That's my excuse anyway.

[Triplebaconation]

new fangled bolt action thing was compared to stuff already in existence and well proven like lever actions and revolver rifles

Pretty sure widespread use of bolt-actions predates both of those.

[Puzikas]

1895 was the best military lever rifles (except maybe the Savage 99?) And it was still worse in most ways than the mosin.

Russia was just elated to find someone with a dormant production line that could have made a rifle that could not only use their gay ammo, but also use their gay chargers.

I say this as the chief slav, Tsarist Russia was mentally dysfunctional.

The Latvian rifles were however extremist based.

Pretty sure widespread use of bolt-actions predates both of those.

Post yfw the first bolt action rifle predates the first self contained cartridge.

Post yfw the metallic self contained cartridge predates the paper cartridge.

[Triplebaconation]

post yfw when a chad aims his flintlock bazooka at you from the back of a speeding post-chaise

[Purpelia]

new fangled bolt action thing was compared to stuff already in existence and well proven like lever actions and revolver rifles

Pretty sure widespread use of bolt-actions predates both of those.

Yea, I know. The various single shot bolt actions and needle rifles. That's why I go to such a contrivance to make up a scenario where basically these newer took off commercially and the militaries couldn't buy new rifles for over 50 years right during the period where they would have taken off. So when an actual contract comes along in 1890 to replace single shot muzzle loading black powder rifles everyone is scrambling for what they see on the market.

[Triplebaconation]

There's no need for silly contrivances.

A war or war scare comes along, the army is short of rifles, domestic manufacture isn't sufficient so they buy up what's available

[Gallia-]

The Latvians were pretty cool

(Image)

this is true and accurate much like latvian rifflguys

i actually want an 1895 irl theyre pretty dope

[Sevvania]

It depends on the MILAN missile used, of course, there are versions with a 3000 meter range, I.E. roughly 2 miles.

Not during the Toyota War.

it's not smart to charge a tank in a Toyota truck and then get out and slowly advanced towards it on foot.

No one is suggesting this but you.

How are we still on the fucking HiLux War after a whole year

We've really slowed down around here (in order to dismount and advance into machine gun fire from enemy tanks).

People on a gun site have a natural inclination to think guns are more important than people.

But I love gun.

[Purpelia]

There's no need for silly contrivances.

A war or war scare comes along, the army is short of rifles, domestic manufacture isn't sufficient so they buy up what's available

Ordinarily yes. But I want this to be a deliberately adopted and issued thing. As in these guys deliberately chose it because they thought it'd be a good idea to adopt a Winchester levergun in 7mm Mauser. Mostly because I love the idea personally.

[Gallia-]

the only thing more important than people is plutonium rly

the p's in people mean plutonium powered

[New Vihenia]

Time to fill my "Long" VLS variant.

This thing is "Medea Hyvelblade"

a Usual "Rapid Response Scramjet Missile". Can snuff out ships or anything needs to be killed as fast as possible. from 1000-1200 Km away



It will fly high at 40+ km. lights up seeker somewhere in between, get updates then drop for terminal phase with Mach 8.3



It's boosted to Scramjet operating speed by a long booster.

[Cossack Peoples]

I'm beginning to tell that I'll have to put up with a lot of space bs in the foreseeable future, so what do you all think is the best MT way to deter le cliche orbital bombardment platform?