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Gallia-
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Gallia- » Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:35 pm

Triplebaconation wrote:
Gallia- wrote:That's incredibly trivial yes.

Again, South Korea has no troubles operating Russian and American equipment in the same airspace lol. For that matter, neither does Poland, Romania, or Czechia, if we want to talk about MiG-29 and MiG-21.


An even better example might be Iraq, whose Thomson-CSF KARI system integrated Western and Soviet radars, aircraft, and air defenses with a British battle management system.

Needless to say, the Coalition had decent information about this system in 1991.

The S-400 is designed to be easily networked and unlike a gentoo installation collects sensitive information by nature. There's a possibility it could be patched to send this information to a node operated by Russian intelligence if this isn't already an undocumented feature.


Ye.

Rosmana wrote:
Triplebaconation wrote:Lockheed has a more sophisticated method than bribing these days. By sourcing parts from Dutch industry it ensures there's always internal political pressure to procure F-35s.

Is that not another form of corruption?, it feels like Coercion, and I think they probably bribed PM Jan Peter Balkenende at the time. :ugeek:

I mean what is in it for US?, what do we gain?

I could be wrong though, but things like this really make me HATE my own country.


The alternative is being thrall to Germany, or Russia, or whoever, not a native aviation industry.

Dutch air industry died in the 1930's.
Last edited by Gallia- on Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The Manticoran Empire
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Anarchy

Postby The Manticoran Empire » Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:36 pm

Rosmana wrote:
Dayganistan wrote:Nobody went to the Netherlands and said "buy F-35 or get out of NATO." My country, Canada, is also looking to purchase new fighters and the US isn't hovering over us forcing us to buy the F-35, or even an American made aircraft in general.

I still think the US government used bribes to get the contract for Lockheed, like they did with the Starfighter and the F-16.

And that is not an opinion, that is a fact.

And it makes sense, since the US government will not admit there are secret nuclear warheads on the Volkel air force base, and our government can not, or does not want to talk even about it, they neither confirm nor deny it.

Edit: I just can not think of any other reason why they did it the way they did.

Well have you consider that maybe you are overthinking it? Whatever their reasons, enough people within the Government of the Netherlands decided that the F-35 was worth its costs.
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Rosmana
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Rosmana » Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:48 pm

Gallia- wrote:
Triplebaconation wrote:
Is that not another form of corruption?, it feels like Coercion, and I think they probably bribed PM Jan Peter Balkenende at the time. :ugeek:

I mean what is in it for US?, what do we gain?

I could be wrong though, but things like this really make me HATE my own country.


The alternative is being thrall to Germany, or Russia, or whoever, not a native aviation industry.

Dutch air industry died in the 1930's.

The French have the Rafale, and Swedish the Gripen, which where actual candidates, and those are as costly as the overpriced F-35.

The Manticoran Empire wrote:
Rosmana wrote:I still think the US government used bribes to get the contract for Lockheed, like they did with the Starfighter and the F-16.

And that is not an opinion, that is a fact.

And it makes sense, since the US government will not admit there are secret nuclear warheads on the Volkel air force base, and our government can not, or does not want to talk even about it, they neither confirm nor deny it.

Edit: I just can not think of any other reason why they did it the way they did.

Well have you consider that maybe you are overthinking it? Whatever their reasons, enough people within the Government of the Netherlands decided that the F-35 was worth its costs.

I doubt that was the reason, seriously, I really doubt that, since PM Balkende was known to suck up to the USA, and his choice was VERY controversial, even at the tine, but nobody cares, so whatever.
Last edited by Rosmana on Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Triplebaconation
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Triplebaconation » Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:49 pm

Rosmana wrote:
Triplebaconation wrote:Lockheed has a more sophisticated method than bribing these days. By sourcing parts from Dutch industry it ensures there's always internal political pressure to procure F-35s.

Is that not another form of corruption?, it feels like Coercion, and I think they probably bribed PM Jan Peter Balkenende at the time. :ugeek:

I mean what is in it for US?, what do we gain?


24 to 38 billion euros in economic activity and 7-15 billion euros in value added to the Dutch economy.

Note that restrictions on industrial participation if Netherlands leaves the F-35 program are largely due to EU directives.
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Gallia-
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Gallia- » Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:50 pm

Rosmana wrote:
Gallia- wrote:
The alternative is being thrall to Germany, or Russia, or whoever, not a native aviation industry.

Dutch air industry died in the 1930's.

The French have the Rafale, and Swedish the Gripen, which where actual candidates, and those are as costly as the overpriced F-35.


Both would be great if they could be in service before 1980. Sadly both aircraft flew about 15 years late for that deadline. European indigenous fighters are on par with, at worst, F-16C (Gripen), and at best, F-18E/F (Rafale). The intermediate option is somewhere between F-15C and -E (Typhoon).

F-35 is an actually modern fighter, OTOH.
Last edited by Gallia- on Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rosmana
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Rosmana » Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:51 pm

Triplebaconation wrote:
Rosmana wrote:Is that not another form of corruption?, it feels like Coercion, and I think they probably bribed PM Jan Peter Balkenende at the time. :ugeek:

I mean what is in it for US?, what do we gain?


24 to 38 billion euros in economic activity and 7-15 billion euros in value added to the Dutch economy.

Note that restrictions on industrial participation if Netherlands leaves the F-35 program are largely due to EU directives.

Great, whohooo......

And in exchange we have to send our troops to die in their wars....
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Gallia-
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Gallia- » Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:52 pm

Rosmana wrote:
Triplebaconation wrote:
24 to 38 billion euros in economic activity and 7-15 billion euros in value added to the Dutch economy.

Note that restrictions on industrial participation if Netherlands leaves the F-35 program are largely due to EU directives.

Great, whohooo......

And in exchange we have to send our troops to die in their wars....


Could always leave NATO and send troops to die in Russia's wars, or Germany's, or China's.

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Rosmana
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Rosmana » Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:53 pm

Gallia- wrote:
Rosmana wrote:Great, whohooo......

And in exchange we have to send our troops to die in their wars....


Could always leave NATO and send troops to die in Russia's wars, or Germany's, or China's.

Or go Switserland? :D

Sorry about that before, I will just leave before i explode. :unsure:
Last edited by Rosmana on Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Gallia-
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Gallia- » Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:04 pm

Rosmana wrote:
Gallia- wrote:
Could always leave NATO and send troops to die in Russia's wars, or Germany's, or China's.

That is the reason I HATE my country, we are insignificant.

My patriotism is DEAD.....

Sorry about that, I will just leave. :unsure:


It's not insignificant, it's just attuned to its size, because it's a small country.

Unless the Netherlands goes full Israel it will never really amount to much more than it already puts out in terms of aviation industry, which is a fair bit for a country its size. Even Israel doesn't amount that much, it just has a few high profile companies and government agencies (Rafael, IMI, the IDF Ordnance Corps) that contract as an extension of US industry (General Dynamics, primarily, but also Lockheed and Boeing).

Netherlands provides a few good things for NATO, and America at large. The US Coast Guard uses Damen's patrol boats. Signaal provides the SMART-L for a lot of NATO and European warships, and numerous radar products besides that (Goalkeeper and radar directors). Smaller companies contract for Lockheed to build things domestically for advanced fighters, which is far better than a bribe, since it's genuine improvement in living conditions and ensuring employability of workers in a local area.

If Netherlands were a "regional power" like Singapore or Israel, it would probably be an international pariah like North Korea, because there's no serious threats to Western Europe that have bomber planes or tank divisions to threaten it to make the argument that it would need something atomic bombs or tank armies or whatever. :shrug:

I don't see how buying Rafale or Gripen is anything less than buying F-35, except you're supporting people who are less likely to employ local workers (because they're in the Eurozone) and will deliver an inferior product. One good thing about American industry in Europe is that actually employs workers in countries that are purchasing things. There's no reason to believe that Sweden or France would do the same when all the money goes back to Germany and the ECB anyway. They would way more parochial because there's more at stake for them, namely their national aviation industries, and opening shop 50 miles away across a Schengen Area border just doesn't make a lot of sense when you can just ship things by sea or train and save way more money building them in Malmo or Bourdeax.

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Fuso-
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Founded: May 08, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fuso- » Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:23 pm

Rosmana wrote:
Gallia- wrote:
Could always leave NATO and send troops to die in Russia's wars, or Germany's, or China's.

Or go Switserland? :D

Sorry about that before, I will just leave before i explode. :unsure:

Switzerland is an irrelevant meme.
Rosmana wrote:The French have the Rafale, and Swedish the Gripen, which where actual candidates, and those are as costly as the overpriced F-35.

And both would die if they ever as much as got sneezed on by a modern fighter.
Last edited by Fuso- on Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Triplebaconation
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Postby Triplebaconation » Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:42 pm

Found the NS RPer.
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Gallia-
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Gallia- » Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:39 pm

Fuso- wrote:
Rosmana wrote:Or go Switserland? :D

Sorry about that before, I will just leave before i explode. :unsure:

Switzerland is an irrelevant meme.
Rosmana wrote:The French have the Rafale, and Swedish the Gripen, which where actual candidates, and those are as costly as the overpriced F-35.

And both would die if they ever as much as got sneezed on by a modern fighter.


Even if they never fight anything besides MiG-21s or whatever it's better to have a plane that has a fairly secure production line. Both Gripen and Rafale could vanish entirely if a single factory closes, whereas F-35 will likely still be in production, simply because it's been exported much more heavily.

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Triplebaconation
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Postby Triplebaconation » Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:28 pm

just put the factories in the cloud
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Gallia-
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Gallia- » Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:29 pm

They'll probably be outsourced to PRC I guess like Tesla did.

FC-31 will unfortunately turn from classic zinc oxide to whatever green primer F-35 uses. That would be the real tragedy.
Last edited by Gallia- on Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The Akasha Colony
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Postby The Akasha Colony » Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:32 pm

Rosmana wrote:Just curious here, but why would my country, The Netherlands, need a jet like the F-35, when we do not even have MBT,s?

Not judging, I just can not follow the logic.....


I know you already said you left, but I do find it odd to ask a question when you already seem to have invented an (incorrect) answer in your head.

Workshare agreements for subcontracts are the norm for large, complex multi-national enterprises. Just look at Airbus' distributed production facilities throughout Europe and the US, or Boeing's commercial supply chain that reaches into Japan, Australia, Canada, China, etc. Or the Eurofighter program. Germany literally purchased dozens of additional Typhoons they didn't really want in order to keep the workshare they were allocated. Workshare agreements are not by any means a uniquely American form of business.
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Rosmana
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Rosmana » Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:24 am

Gallia- wrote:
Fuso- wrote:Switzerland is an irrelevant meme.

And both would die if they ever as much as got sneezed on by a modern fighter.


Even if they never fight anything besides MiG-21s or whatever it's better to have a plane that has a fairly secure production line. Both Gripen and Rafale could vanish entirely if a single factory closes, whereas F-35 will likely still be in production, simply because it's been exported much more heavily.

Ok, that actually makes sense, you should work for our government. :)
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Champagne Socialist Sharifistan
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Ex-Nation

Postby Champagne Socialist Sharifistan » Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:35 am

Do devoutly religious soldiers make better soldiers than atheists if a country has the same religion as the devoutly religious soldiers in question (all else being equal)?
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Amidia-
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Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Amidia- » Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:28 am

Austrasien wrote:
Champagne Socialist Sharifistan wrote:Which are more motivated fighters?: local conscripts or ideologically motivated foreign volunteers.
Also evidence from 1914 Britain VS Germany implies professional soldiers are militarily superior to conscripts (see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVs1F3x ... 1&index=22)


What usually matters:
  • Realistic practice
  • Experience

What usually does not matter:
  • Ideology
  • How and why they ended up in the military

This is the sort of end all Sharifistan for if x makes a better soldier

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Crookfur
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Crookfur » Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:20 am

Champagne Socialist Sharifistan wrote:Do devoutly religious soldiers make better soldiers than atheists if a country has the same religion as the devoutly religious soldiers in question (all else being equal)?


What's better the excertus imperialus or the astra militarium
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The Manticoran Empire
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Anarchy

Postby The Manticoran Empire » Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:04 pm

Crookfur wrote:
Champagne Socialist Sharifistan wrote:Do devoutly religious soldiers make better soldiers than atheists if a country has the same religion as the devoutly religious soldiers in question (all else being equal)?


What's better the excertus imperialus or the astra militarium

Excertus Imperialus. They look cooler and are more effective, though that may be a result of the Legiones Astartes.
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Spirit of Hope
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Postby Spirit of Hope » Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:56 pm

The virgin imperial army needing to be led by a physical God, only wining against disorganized enemies, and turning traitor to worship uncaring gods.

vs

The chad imperial guard being led by only men, against an unending hoard of monsters and demons, and who continue to fight even as the planet breaks around them.
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Miku the Based
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Posts: 600
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Miku the Based » Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:16 pm

Is 6.5 creedmoor the future of firearms or are we still going to be using a cartridge made back in the '60s and '70s? How long do you think until it becomes widespread?
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Dayganistan
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Father Knows Best State

Postby Dayganistan » Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:24 pm

Miku the Based wrote:Is 6.5 creedmoor the future of firearms or are we still going to be using a cartridge made back in the '60s and '70s? How long do you think until it becomes widespread?

6.5 Creedmoor probably won't see a lot of serious military use. If the American NGSW program is successful there's a good chance the 6.8mm cartridge associated with it will become the NATO standard within a decade of the US adopting it.

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The Akasha Colony
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Akasha Colony » Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:35 pm

Miku the Based wrote:Is 6.5 creedmoor the future of firearms or are we still going to be using a cartridge made back in the '60s and '70s? How long do you think until it becomes widespread?


Seeing as how the US Army has never shown any interest in 6.5 Creedmoor (or any of the other assorted "next generation" commercial rounds like 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC) as a general purpose round in favor of its own designs (currently the 6.8 designs for NGSW), it seems unlikely at best that it's suddenly going to backtrack on that. And every other NATO power is taking the path of least resistance and basically just buying HK416 chambered in bog standard 5.56, without any interest in caliber changes.
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