NS Military Worldbuilding Thread No. 12

[Champagne Socialist Sharifistan]

Can capital punishment (by long drop hanging) deter war crimes?

[Gallia-]

Can capital punishment (by long drop hanging) deter war crimes?

no

[Manokan Republic]

In the realm of designs that I'm not aware of existing IRL, how lulzy would it be to design a missile system designed to drop a 5-10+ tonne object onto a laser-designated spot? The thought is to have one missile daisy chained to the cargo with a parachute, and a rocket at the end of the system. The missile uses a GPS coordinate to estimate where the laser pointer is and the guidance system is designed to direct the cargo into freefall above this predicted point, and the rocket system sees the laser point and is then "launched," serving to prevent the cargo from exceeding the terminal velocity. At sufficient height, the parachute is then deployed allowing for a safe descent as long as the system doesn't malfunction. It'd obviously be costly, but could be theoretically reused.

Well actually, the JDAM smart-bomb system is currently being used to help deliver cargo with precision, and would be really useful for a lot of reasons, as sometimes air dropped cargo can be blown off target especially if dropped at high altitude which would protect the aircraft better.

When you think about it, the JDAM was designed to be robust and fit to a bunch of differently sized bombs, and so anything shaped like these bombs should in theory be able to be deployed using the JDAM system, with the only potential problem being deploying the parachutes which, could be done with a separate system using an altimeter or just combined in a new system based on the JDAM. The glory of the JDAM is in it's simplicity, in that it's super cheap but is very accurate, using the force of the air as it falls to help it glide to target rather than needing a rocket or engine to steer it. A version with a small engine attached to help it be steered to target, it also being developed.

As for a 10 ton version, it's more so just a matter of scaling it up, I presume. This would be the cheaper way of doing it essentially.

[Manokan Republic]

Manokan over here combing 2008 NS energy with 1950s US Army Experimental tank designs. Truly ahead of our time.

"Those who dare, win. And those who win, determine future legislative policy in the global western hemisphere."- Me, just now.

[Manokan Republic]

The Warsaw Pact's 152mm howitzer shell contains a similar propellent charge to NATO 120mm tank ammunition, so I bet you could accomplish that goal by having a smoothbore 152mm designed to shoot APFSDS or a sub-caliber HE-FRAG proximity fuzed shell for targets at altitude. Adding the ability for indirect fire to a tank perform isn't a new concept. Israeli tanks have light mortars, as do some Vietnamese tanks that had been refitted by Israel. Gun-launched missiles tend to be used in the anti-helicopter role.

That's not a bad idea, although, ideally the 155mm howitzer being bigger than the 120mm would allow for a greater volume of propellant, allowing for an even bigger round or at least comparable velocities out of a 155mm. In theory you could just replicate the ballistics of the 120mm inside of a 155mm howitzer without much issue, the only real problem is matching the velocity with the 155mm howitzer propellant, while varied, usually doesn't have the same energy or velocity and rate of burn.

There are propellant bags for the 155mm howitzer that allow it to be customizable, and it was used a lot in WWII, although today they typically use a canister to hold on to these bags and it's low-velocity stuff. The real trick would be matching the velocity and figuring out which rounds it can be used with. Being missile assisted also would be a big advantage, the theory being it's cheaper/easier to get the velocity of the missile up with a gun than just using a giant rocket. Being partially guided would be a lot cheaper than just straight up using an anti-aircraft missile, which would allow for a higher volume of fire and a higher chance of interception.

Another advantage is super long range artillery. If you double the velocity, you actually can quadruple the range, as the cartridge goes up and down. So a standard 155mm can get up to 15-20 miles, so a 60-80 mile range would not be that crazy, possibly further with rocket assistance. This would also allow it to compete with rocket artillery, without being pure rocket artillery which is generally a little bit more expensive. However, either the round would need to be smaller or the propellant way more powerful for it to work.

[Manokan Republic]

(Image)

rate the squad

Yes. 100%. I like the gun designs, suppressors for everyone all the time is a good idea, especially on bullpups. The only problem is that the FAMAS is a blowback gun and thus more sensitive to these kind of pressure and energy changes and so, the gun may become inoperable or unreliable if you ever removed the suppressor. A short barreled version of the FAMAS for example had to have the entire bolt lightened for it to work for example, as it changed the amount of backwards energy in the gun to shorten the barrel. Otherwise, yes.

You could also use the suppressor to put gas pressure back down the barrel to help the weapon reciprocate, thus making it a gas-assissted delayed blowback weapon. Or you could just argue it has a housing unit like the FAMAS but internally the guys are different, such as having a piston system like the HK416 which the french have also started to adopt. So it's a bullpup hk416 in a FAMAS body which has an easier time regulating the gas system.

[Husseinarti]

(Image)

rate the squad

Yes. 100%. I like the gun designs, suppressors for everyone all the time is a good idea, especially on bullpups. The only problem is that the FAMAS is a blowback gun and thus more sensitive to these kind of pressure and energy changes and so, the gun may become inoperable or unreliable if you ever removed the suppressor. A short barreled version of the FAMAS for example had to have the entire bolt lightened for it to work for example, as it changed the amount of backwards energy in the gun to shorten the barrel. Otherwise, yes.

You could also use the suppressor to put gas pressure back down the barrel to help the weapon reciprocate, thus making it a gas-assissted delayed blowback weapon. Or you could just argue it has a housing unit like the FAMAS but internally the guys are different, such as having a piston system like the HK416 which the french have also started to adopt. So it's a bullpup hk416 in a FAMAS body which has an easier time regulating the gas system.

The shortened model your talking about was shortened by 7 inches, this is based on the commando, which is shortened by a little over 3 inches.

Plus suppressors were used on the FAMAS, they fit over the muzzle break on the end of the grenade discharger, these do the same thing.

[TPFII]

Well actually, the JDAM smart-bomb system is currently being used to help deliver cargo with precision, and would be really useful for a lot of reasons, as sometimes air dropped cargo can be blown off target especially if dropped at high altitude which would protect the aircraft better.

When you think about it, the JDAM was designed to be robust and fit to a bunch of differently sized bombs, and so anything shaped like these bombs should in theory be able to be deployed using the JDAM system, with the only potential problem being deploying the parachutes which, could be done with a separate system using an altimeter or just combined in a new system based on the JDAM. The glory of the JDAM is in it's simplicity, in that it's super cheap but is very accurate, using the force of the air as it falls to help it glide to target rather than needing a rocket or engine to steer it. A version with a small engine attached to help it be steered to target, it also being developed.

As for a 10 ton version, it's more so just a matter of scaling it up, I presume. This would be the cheaper way of doing it essentially.

Thank you. The trio of islands is structured to fight as a partisan force pre-WW2, and is then victim to an Axis-front that sees it as resource rich and centrally located asset, but prejudices from the attacking nations believe they won't need many soldiers to do it, and with support of the prior colonial power, the islands are able to be eventually retaken, and the nation is then roped in under the Allied powers. As this nation's fleet is currently inadequate relative to their enemies', the thought is that they'd want the ability to essentially assault their own beaches without landing craft. Rocket propelled, and eventually missile guided, cargo pods or gliders seems like it would accomplish that goal. Presumably they'd want a high speed amphibious armoured fighting vehicle, too.

That's not a bad idea, although, ideally the 155mm howitzer being bigger than the 120mm would allow for a greater volume of propellant, allowing for an even bigger round or at least comparable velocities out of a 155mm. In theory you could just replicate the ballistics of the 120mm inside of a 155mm howitzer without much issue, the only real problem is matching the velocity with the 155mm howitzer propellant, while varied, usually doesn't have the same energy or velocity and rate of burn.

There are propellant bags for the 155mm howitzer that allow it to be customizable, and it was used a lot in WWII, although today they typically use a canister to hold on to these bags and it's low-velocity stuff. The real trick would be matching the velocity and figuring out which rounds it can be used with. Being missile assisted also would be a big advantage, the theory being it's cheaper/easier to get the velocity of the missile up with a gun than just using a giant rocket. Being partially guided would be a lot cheaper than just straight up using an anti-aircraft missile, which would allow for a higher volume of fire and a higher chance of interception.

Another advantage is super long range artillery. If you double the velocity, you actually can quadruple the range, as the cartridge goes up and down. So a standard 155mm can get up to 15-20 miles, so a 60-80 mile range would not be that crazy, possibly further with rocket assistance. This would also allow it to compete with rocket artillery, without being pure rocket artillery which is generally a little bit more expensive. However, either the round would need to be smaller or the propellant way more powerful for it to work.

Those are all fair criticisms. It really just comes down to how much ME you need out of the gun IMO.

[The Manticoran Empire]

Can capital punishment (by long drop hanging) deter war crimes?

If it did, then crime would have evaporated centuries ago.

[Republic of Penguinian Astronautia]

Something like this, which we can imaginatively call a "Regional Unit" or "RU":

Small Unit: 6-12 men with [url=https://external-preview.redd.it/CHhbOOs0UsIgEtzmidC_EdH9JGU0HG8PTlA0iqkQb6s.jpg?auto=webp&s=b8f82b1ed8657cdff8b2fd343c34a3b6d8444d62]advanced sights, high performance cartridges and long range rifles, with a transport vehicle or two. Has a ROVER tablet (or two) for the FACs to receive sensor feeds from overhead Predator drones with GMTI radars and FLIRs. Can fly the drones if they want to give away their positions to enemy strategic ELINT I guess. Runs wires or has some sort of NLOS laser communications on one of their Humvees to talk to people. Gets parachuted out of planes. Drives around as the battle develops.

Artillery Unit: 150-200 men with cruise missiles, long range ballistic missiles, and a stealthy launch platform for long-range artillery. Maybe has its own internal UAS for targeting fired out of a VLS silo or out of a separate launch tube, and high gain SATCOM for receiving targeting data from the UAS (or piloting them).

Air Unit: 2,000-3,000 men that provides aviation support, including tactical fighters, OCA/DCA, and reconnaissance. Provides the MTI/FLIR drones that the Small Unit needs to see, and has a faster response time than the Artillery Unit. Maintains the smaller aircraft of a RU such as the liaison helicopters, CAS drones, and tac fighters. Probably has some means of providing "combat support" for a Small Unit by landing F-22s on roadside highways and arming/fueling them with MC-130s. Really 4-5 squadrons of good (F-22) fighters/drones with maybe a small transportation squadron for arming/refueling.

Support Unit: 3,000-5,000 men that supplies palletized ammunition, transportation by air or sea and materiel maintenance. Can also protect a theater or regional force from attacks using its innate defense capability. Also has medical evacuation capacity and a hospital. It's more a nerve center than an actual fighting unit, like a regional airbase or something, and so it would be pretty far away and talk to the frontline troops by satellite more or less.

This is very interesting, I would like to hear more if you would like to explain, specifically, would this comprise the entire military force, or would there be separate units for manuever, OOTW/occupation, and nuclear delivery? Also, what kind of vehicles do you have in mind for the SmallU?

[Gallia-]

It's neither my idea nor is it particularly original.

Chapter 4 has everything in it, including a cute truck with a little helicopter, and a lot of graphs and diagrams and maps.

[New Vihenia]

So, yeah i suppressing or reducing noise from tankgun fire worth it ?

Like im thinking of a supressor for tank. not the one in German training yard but actually built in.

[Austrasien]

So, yeah i suppressing or reducing noise from tankgun fire worth it ?

Like im thinking of a supressor for tank. not the one in German training yard but actually built in.

Suppressing the flash would be more desirable, it propagates farther (SBIRS can probably detect a tank shot) and more reliably, but generally yes. Acoustic metamaterials have a lot of promise since they will one day make it possible to produce a true flow-through sound suppressor with no diversion of hot gas.

[Manokan Republic]

Yes. 100%. I like the gun designs, suppressors for everyone all the time is a good idea, especially on bullpups. The only problem is that the FAMAS is a blowback gun and thus more sensitive to these kind of pressure and energy changes and so, the gun may become inoperable or unreliable if you ever removed the suppressor. A short barreled version of the FAMAS for example had to have the entire bolt lightened for it to work for example, as it changed the amount of backwards energy in the gun to shorten the barrel. Otherwise, yes.

You could also use the suppressor to put gas pressure back down the barrel to help the weapon reciprocate, thus making it a gas-assissted delayed blowback weapon. Or you could just argue it has a housing unit like the FAMAS but internally the guys are different, such as having a piston system like the HK416 which the french have also started to adopt. So it's a bullpup hk416 in a FAMAS body which has an easier time regulating the gas system.

The shortened model your talking about was shortened by 7 inches, this is based on the commando, which is shortened by a little over 3 inches.

Plus suppressors were used on the FAMAS, they fit over the muzzle break on the end of the grenade discharger, these do the same thing.

Well what I'm saying is, it changes the gas pressure of the weapon which can alter how the weapon cycles. The FAMAS is a finnicky gun, for example, it has trouble using standard brass 5.56mm ammunition. If you add a suppressor to it, the bolt travel will be different and this could make the cylic rate too high, or make it so it just doesn't work. That being said it's possible to overcome this issue, just something I thought I'd mention. A modernized version of the FAMAS could just be designed around new parameters.

[Immoren]

So are your artillery observers like

Artillery observer: I request fire at coordinates 47°36′56″N 122°20′22″W
Fire direction Center:

FDC: Send orders to fire to the coordinates to heavy mortar battery, 69th artillery battalion and 420th howitzer battalion.

Or is it like
Fire support commander to forward observer:
Okay Lieutenant Fuzz. You will have battalion heavy mortar platoon on your call from 1000 through 1500. 2nd battery of brigartilley will be on your command from 1200 through 1500. You will also mark 5 targets of your choosing as interception targets for DIVARTY and one OH FUCK OH SHIT target for TBM battery from corps artillery.

Or something else entirely/in between. lol

[Austrasien]

So are your artillery observers like

Artillery observer: I request fire at coordinates 47°36′56″N 122°20′22″W
Fire direction Center:

(Image)

FDC: Send orders to fire to the coordinates to heavy mortar battery, 69th artillery battalion and 420th howitzer battalion.

this yes a computer of some kind is involved.

On a good day it should be able to allocate automatically by tube and gun according to time of reception and defined priority criteria (who sent it, their unit, their mission, the target type etc). On a bad day I guess everyone screams and curses god.

[Gallia-]

So are your artillery observers like

Artillery observer: I request fire at coordinates 47°36′56″N 122°20′22″W
Fire direction Center:

(Image)

FDC: Send orders to fire to the coordinates to heavy mortar battery, 69th artillery battalion and 420th howitzer battalion.

Or is it like
Fire support commander to forward observer:
Okay Lieutenant Fuzz. You will have battalion heavy mortar platoon on your call from 1000 through 1500. 2nd battery of brigartilley will be on your command from 1200 through 1500. You will also mark 5 targets of your choosing as interception targets for DIVARTY and one OH FUCK OH SHIT target for TBM battery from corps artillery.

Or something else entirely/in between. lol

Both.

Best case: AFATDS knockoff allocates fire missions automatically without being jammed or destroyed.
Worst case: An FO sends a high power voice transmission without a functioning crypto codegram straight to the nearest (or furthest) FDC and calls for fire with a 9-line and map coordinates.

Actual ideal is something like buried wires transmitting AFATDS data between interlinked batteries and FDC, and wired to trenches or using remote antenna. In practice the only part that probably tends to be done is remote transmitters since no one really wants to run a half mile of cable on a motorbike back to the FDC, so they just drop a antenna 100-150 meters away from the FDC and use it to link back to the FA battalion with one of those wire burying hand cart things.

[Immoren]

I was led to this line to thinking, because I was wondering if the centralized FDC concept that America seems to use, with observers being "merely" eyes for the central brain FDC something that naturally follows when you're large amount of money to throw at the computation and comms, or if it's some cultural or institutional thing.
Versus having observers themselves being the arbiters of fire missions based on tube resources they receive based on time and space.

If I've understood how it works across the pond at all lol.

[Husseinarti]

The shortened model your talking about was shortened by 7 inches, this is based on the commando, which is shortened by a little over 3 inches.

Plus suppressors were used on the FAMAS, they fit over the muzzle break on the end of the grenade discharger, these do the same thing.

Well what I'm saying is, it changes the gas pressure of the weapon which can alter how the weapon cycles. The FAMAS is a finnicky gun, for example, it has trouble using standard brass 5.56mm ammunition. If you add a suppressor to it, the bolt travel will be different and this could make the cylic rate too high, or make it so it just doesn't work. That being said it's possible to overcome this issue, just something I thought I'd mention. A modernized version of the FAMAS could just be designed around new parameters.

Its finicky because the last FAMAS was built in 1992. Every new, better yet, every "new" model of FAMAS since has been a refit on an existing receiver, built between 1979 to 1992. A Pig gunner in 1969 had nothing but good things to say about his M60, while someone who got that same M60 in 1989 had nothing but bad things to say about it. Same for the M249, a Marine who got his M249 in 1991 loved it to death, but when that same M249 was issued in 2019, that Marine hated it. Guns wear down with use, what a shock. Complaints about the FAMAS are linked to old rifles and old magazines.

Shitty magazines are a reoccurring theme in the US Armed Forces as well, with old magazines making up something like 1/3rd of the M16/M4's malfunctions in some trials. This is fixed by issuing new PMAGs.

Also all guns tend to have issues with suppressors in some kind of way unless it has some weird built in suppressor or uses super low-power ammo.

Also ripping brass? Really? The French Army uses steel cased ammo because when the barrel of a FAMAS is plugged with water, brass cased ammo ruptures. They use steel instead because it doesn't. The Air Force issues brass case ammo still.

[Amidia-]

Well what I'm saying is, it changes the gas pressure of the weapon which can alter how the weapon cycles. The FAMAS is a finnicky gun, for example, it has trouble using standard brass 5.56mm ammunition. If you add a suppressor to it, the bolt travel will be different and this could make the cylic rate too high, or make it so it just doesn't work. That being said it's possible to overcome this issue, just something I thought I'd mention. A modernized version of the FAMAS could just be designed around new parameters.

Its finicky because the last FAMAS was built in 1992. Every new, better yet, every "new" model of FAMAS since has been a refit on an existing receiver, built between 1979 to 1992. A Pig gunner in 1969 had nothing but good things to say about his M60, while someone who got that same M60 in 1989 had nothing but bad things to say about it. Same for the M249, a Marine who got his M249 in 1991 loved it to death, but when that same M249 was issued in 2019, that Marine hated it. Guns wear down with use, what a shock. Complaints about the FAMAS are linked to old rifles and old magazines.

Shitty magazines are a reoccurring theme in the US Armed Forces as well, with old magazines making up something like 1/3rd of the M16/M4's malfunctions in some trials. This is fixed by issuing new PMAGs.

Also all guns tend to have issues with suppressors in some kind of way unless it has some weird built in suppressor or uses super low-power ammo.

Also ripping brass? Really? The French Army uses steel cased ammo because when the barrel of a FAMAS is plugged with water, brass cased ammo ruptures. They use steel instead because it doesn't. The Air Force issues brass case ammo still.

hahaha french gun bad, just like the pig. Obviously, the solution is to readopt the m14.

[New Vihenia]

So, yeah i suppressing or reducing noise from tankgun fire worth it ?

Like im thinking of a supressor for tank. not the one in German training yard but actually built in.

Suppressing the flash would be more desirable, it propagates farther (SBIRS can probably detect a tank shot) and more reliably, but generally yes. Acoustic metamaterials have a lot of promise since they will one day make it possible to produce a true flow-through sound suppressor with no diversion of hot gas.

You know what... this material seems to allow silent track link too.

Prob Tank Bayonet would be a reality too.

[Austrasien]

I was led to this line to thinking, because I was wondering if the centralized FDC concept that America seems to use, with observers being "merely" eyes for the central brain FDC something that naturally follows when you're large amount of money to throw at the computation and comms, or if it's some cultural or institutional thing.
Versus having observers themselves being the arbiters of fire missions based on tube resources they receive based on time and space.

If I've understood how it works across the pond at all lol.

It is the natural conclusion of reliable communication really.

You have guns which can shoot. You have people who see targets. The platonic ideal would be every missions assigned to every gun which is in the right place at the right time to help fulfill it. Plans which subordinate certain guns at certain times to certain observers are at least in principle forsaking potential eyes.

[Miku the Based]

What if we just smacked a 16 incher on a tank?

[Austrasien]

What if we just smacked a 16 incher on a tank?

it would be rather large

[The Manticoran Empire]

What if we just smacked a 16 incher on a tank?

I'm sorry, Archmagos, but just because you physically CAN do it doesn't mean you SHOULD do it.