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Which is better? Communism or Socialism (IC debate)

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Kyavan
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Founded: Jan 09, 2019
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Which is better? Communism or Socialism (IC debate)

Postby Kyavan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:49 am

Hello everyone! I'm curious on your thoughts on which form of government is better. Arguments should be level headed and have valid proof of their claim.
Doing a total overhaul of my nation!

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Wawakanatote
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Founded: Feb 19, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Wawakanatote » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:51 am

There is no debate here. Communism and Socialism are apart of the same process.
OOC Factbook
Is this even real? - Real question
Pro: Marxism-Leninism
Anti: Capitalism, Fascism
We do not exist under communism, but under the
primary stage of socialist development
Please adjust accordingly
Full Nation Name: Supranational Union of Socialist Republics
Government: Federal Intergovernmental P&E Union
Political Leaders: C.Song Liyuan, V.C.Lev Bronshtein
National Anthem: "Hymn of the Union"
"Seek Truth From Facts!"- Deng Xiaoping, Chairman of the Central Advisory Commission
"Peace, Equality, Unity" | "Мир, равенство, единство" | "和平,平等,团结"

For more information go to: Our National Factbook

Take NS stats with a grain of salt

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Kyavan
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Postby Kyavan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:52 am

Wawakanatote wrote:There is no debate here. Communism and Socialism are apart of the same process.


I disagree
Doing a total overhaul of my nation!

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Kyavan
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Postby Kyavan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:54 am

Communism and socialism are economic and political structures that promote equality and seek to eliminate social classes. The two are interchangeable in some ways, but different in others.In a communist society, the working class owns everything, and everyone works toward the same communal goal. There are no wealthy or poor people -- all are equal, and the community distributes what it produces based only on need. Nothing is obtained by working more than what is required. Communism frequently results in low production, mass poverty and limited advancement.Like communism, socialism’s main focus is on equality. But workers earn wages they can spend as they choose, while the government, not citizens, owns and operates the means for production. Workers receive what they need to produce and survive, but there’s no incentive to achieve more, leaving little motivation
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Wawakanatote
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Founded: Feb 19, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Wawakanatote » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:54 am

Kyavan wrote:
Wawakanatote wrote:There is no debate here. Communism and Socialism are apart of the same process.


I disagree


Well, you're wrong. You're likely confusing socialism for social democracy which is a common thing. But socialism is a process which eventually leads to communism as a bridge between capitalism and communism.
OOC Factbook
Is this even real? - Real question
Pro: Marxism-Leninism
Anti: Capitalism, Fascism
We do not exist under communism, but under the
primary stage of socialist development
Please adjust accordingly
Full Nation Name: Supranational Union of Socialist Republics
Government: Federal Intergovernmental P&E Union
Political Leaders: C.Song Liyuan, V.C.Lev Bronshtein
National Anthem: "Hymn of the Union"
"Seek Truth From Facts!"- Deng Xiaoping, Chairman of the Central Advisory Commission
"Peace, Equality, Unity" | "Мир, равенство, единство" | "和平,平等,团结"

For more information go to: Our National Factbook

Take NS stats with a grain of salt

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Kyavan
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Founded: Jan 09, 2019
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Postby Kyavan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:58 am

Wawakanatote wrote:
Kyavan wrote:
I disagree


Well, you're wrong. You're likely confusing socialism for social democracy which is a common thing. But socialism is a process which eventually leads to communism as a bridge between capitalism and communism.


In the defense of the difference between the two. In socialism, workers earn wages they can spend as they choose, while the government, not citizens, owns and operates the means for production. While in communism, the working class owns everything, and everyone works toward the same communal goal. There are no wealthy or poor people -- all are equal.
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Autarkheia
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Corporate Police State

Postby Autarkheia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:59 am

IC, my nation would be against both, but probably more a fan of socialism because it's compatible with a strong nation-state, whereas communism (in theory anyway) is not. Communist regimes like the PRC would be seen as admirable for their orderly economic development and social control. Stalinism would be seen as misguided in its goals, but its authoritarian methods would be seen as ideal.

As for democratic or libertarian socialism, our nation is very against it because we reject all forms of egalitarianism. We believe in strict hierarchy and preserving the class system. We think abolishing private property and money is a ridiculous and unworkable goal, and abolishing the state is even more ridiculous, so we are also against anarchism.
We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the right, a Fascist century. If the XIXth century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the "collective" century, and therefore the century of the State.

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Kyavan
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Founded: Jan 09, 2019
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Kyavan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:01 pm

Autarkheia wrote:IC, my nation would be against both, but probably more a fan of socialism because it's compatible with a strong nation-state, whereas communism (in theory anyway) is not. Communist regimes like the PRC would be seen as admirable for their orderly economic development and social control. Stalinism would be seen as misguided in its goals, but its authoritarian methods would be seen as ideal.

As for democratic or libertarian socialism, our nation is very against it because we reject all forms of egalitarianism. We believe in strict hierarchy and preserving the class system. We think abolishing private property and money is a ridiculous and unworkable goal, and abolishing the state is even more ridiculous, so we are also against anarchism.


IC, I couldn't agree more but we are a little more tolerant of egalitarianism and we abolished the class system after our civil war.
Doing a total overhaul of my nation!

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Wawakanatote
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Founded: Feb 19, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Wawakanatote » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:12 pm

Kyavan wrote:
Wawakanatote wrote:
Well, you're wrong. You're likely confusing socialism for social democracy which is a common thing. But socialism is a process which eventually leads to communism as a bridge between capitalism and communism.


In the defense of the difference between the two. In socialism, workers earn wages they can spend as they choose, while the government, not citizens, owns and operates the means for production. While in communism, the working class owns everything, and everyone works toward the same communal goal. There are no wealthy or poor people -- all are equal.


The differences between socialism and communism is not meant to declare which side is "better" because they are meant to work towards he same goal, which is communism. The biggest examples of socialist countries are the USSR and China both of which improved the lives of their people greatly over their previous predecessors.
OOC Factbook
Is this even real? - Real question
Pro: Marxism-Leninism
Anti: Capitalism, Fascism
We do not exist under communism, but under the
primary stage of socialist development
Please adjust accordingly
Full Nation Name: Supranational Union of Socialist Republics
Government: Federal Intergovernmental P&E Union
Political Leaders: C.Song Liyuan, V.C.Lev Bronshtein
National Anthem: "Hymn of the Union"
"Seek Truth From Facts!"- Deng Xiaoping, Chairman of the Central Advisory Commission
"Peace, Equality, Unity" | "Мир, равенство, единство" | "和平,平等,团结"

For more information go to: Our National Factbook

Take NS stats with a grain of salt

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Kyavan
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Founded: Jan 09, 2019
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Kyavan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:16 pm

Wawakanatote wrote:
Kyavan wrote:
In the defense of the difference between the two. In socialism, workers earn wages they can spend as they choose, while the government, not citizens, owns and operates the means for production. While in communism, the working class owns everything, and everyone works toward the same communal goal. There are no wealthy or poor people -- all are equal.


The differences between socialism and communism is not meant to declare which side is "better" because they are meant to work towards he same goal, which is communism. The biggest examples of socialist countries are the USSR and China both of which improved the lives of their people greatly over their previous predecessors.


Perhaps in the short term. Under Lenin, the USSR prospered greatly under a communist regime but once he died. It was that same regime that caused mass poverty across the whole of Russia. Socialism; especially democratic socialism is every successful in countries like Norway and Sweden.Countries I might add, that haven't even explored the idea of communism.
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Autarkheia
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Founded: Jun 22, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Autarkheia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:18 pm

The terms "socialism" and "communism" can mean different things and the way they are used in Marxism is not the same way everyone uses them. Important thing to keep in mind when discussing this.
We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the right, a Fascist century. If the XIXth century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the "collective" century, and therefore the century of the State.

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Kyavan
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Founded: Jan 09, 2019
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Kyavan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:21 pm

Autarkheia wrote:The terms "socialism" and "communism" can mean different things and the way they are used in Marxism is not the same way everyone uses them. Important thing to keep in mind when discussing this.


Yes, but for the purposes of this debate; I am pulling examples of both forms of government from history
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Wawakanatote
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Founded: Feb 19, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Wawakanatote » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:25 pm

Kyavan wrote:
Wawakanatote wrote:
The differences between socialism and communism is not meant to declare which side is "better" because they are meant to work towards he same goal, which is communism. The biggest examples of socialist countries are the USSR and China both of which improved the lives of their people greatly over their previous predecessors.


Perhaps in the short term. Under Lenin, the USSR prospered greatly under a communist regime but once he died. It was that same regime that caused mass poverty across the whole of Russia. Socialism; especially democratic socialism is every successful in countries like Norway and Sweden.Countries I might add, that haven't even explored the idea of communism.


I F*CKING KNEW IT! I knew you were going to call social democracies,"democratic socialist" (a term used to describe Allende and Maduro). Neither Sweden nor Norway have a socialist economy, nor do they have a socialist market economy like China. Also, you do realize that most of the prosperity that happened in the USSR happened under Stalin's time right? Lenin's USSR was nowhere near being a prosperous nation by the time he died as his time was filled mostly by war and restructuring the USSR after civil war. Stalin's USSR (a socialist state) was the one of the only countries that didn't feel the effects of the great depression while also becoming a world superpower in around 20 years.
OOC Factbook
Is this even real? - Real question
Pro: Marxism-Leninism
Anti: Capitalism, Fascism
We do not exist under communism, but under the
primary stage of socialist development
Please adjust accordingly
Full Nation Name: Supranational Union of Socialist Republics
Government: Federal Intergovernmental P&E Union
Political Leaders: C.Song Liyuan, V.C.Lev Bronshtein
National Anthem: "Hymn of the Union"
"Seek Truth From Facts!"- Deng Xiaoping, Chairman of the Central Advisory Commission
"Peace, Equality, Unity" | "Мир, равенство, единство" | "和平,平等,团结"

For more information go to: Our National Factbook

Take NS stats with a grain of salt

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Kyavan
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Posts: 296
Founded: Jan 09, 2019
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Kyavan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:26 pm

Wawakanatote wrote:
Kyavan wrote:
Perhaps in the short term. Under Lenin, the USSR prospered greatly under a communist regime but once he died. It was that same regime that caused mass poverty across the whole of Russia. Socialism; especially democratic socialism is every successful in countries like Norway and Sweden.Countries I might add, that haven't even explored the idea of communism.


I F*CKING KNEW IT! I knew you were going to call social democracies,"democratic socialist" (a term used to describe Allende and Maduro). Neither Sweden nor Norway have a socialist economy, nor do they have a socialist market economy like China. Also, you do realize that most of the prosperity that happened in the USSR happened under Stalin's time right? Lenin's USSR was nowhere near being a prosperous nation by the time he died as his time was filled mostly by war and restructuring the USSR after civil war. Stalin's USSR (a socialist state) was the one of the only countries that didn't feel the effects of the great depression while also becoming a world superpower in around 20 years.


Because under Stalin, the USSR was already in a depression!
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Kremlinian Russia
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Kremlinian Russia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:29 pm

Kyavan wrote:Perhaps in the short term. Under Lenin, the USSR prospered greatly under a communist regime but once he died. It was that same regime that caused mass poverty across the whole of Russia. Socialism; especially democratic socialism is every successful in countries like Norway and Sweden.Countries I might add, that haven't even explored the idea of communism.


My friend wrote a short and basic overview of socialism in Marxism, and it is as follows.

Socialism is:
- Elimination of exploiting classes
- Elimination of the capitalist mode of production
- Getting rid of M-C-M circuit
- Each according to his ability, each according to his work
- Weakening of the capitalist superstructure not completely but to some extent as the antithesis between intellectual and physical labor will remain, and in third world countries especially the antithesis between agricultural workers and industrial workers

Tell me now, have the Nords done any of these?

They certainly have not eliminated the capitalists.
They certainly have not gotten rid of the capitalist mode of production.
They still use the Money-Commodity-Money cycle.
They haven't abolished capitalist exploitation of labour.
They haven't weakened the capitalist superstructure.

Also on the subject of 'USSR poor and bad', we know this to be completely false. The USSR had perhaps the greatest industrial growth of the 20th century, managed to provide free healthcare and communal housing to those who had previously not had any, and managed to provide land to the landless peasants who were screwed over by the kulaks under the Tsarist regime.

Materials:
https://www.marxists.org/reference/arch ... /01/07.htm
https://mltheory.wordpress.com/2016/08/ ... evolution/
https://mltheory.wordpress.com/the-real ... iet-union/ (Has a lot of different books to read)
https://espressostalinist.com/the-real-stalin-series/ (Another collection of sources)

Kyavan wrote:
Wawakanatote wrote:
I F*CKING KNEW IT! I knew you were going to call social democracies,"democratic socialist" (a term used to describe Allende and Maduro). Neither Sweden nor Norway have a socialist economy, nor do they have a socialist market economy like China. Also, you do realize that most of the prosperity that happened in the USSR happened under Stalin's time right? Lenin's USSR was nowhere near being a prosperous nation by the time he died as his time was filled mostly by war and restructuring the USSR after civil war. Stalin's USSR (a socialist state) was the one of the only countries that didn't feel the effects of the great depression while also becoming a world superpower in around 20 years.


Because under Stalin, the USSR was already in a depression!

Ah yes, the classic blame Stalin for improving the situation further and developing socialism by discrediting him and lying about the progress made.
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Picentia
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Founded: Nov 13, 2016
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Picentia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:30 pm

Picentia is a socialist country on its way towards communism, and we reject the idea that any given country may be socialist without pursuing communism in some way or another.
Welfare programs, while desirable when sensibly implemented, do not represent socialism on their own. There are a series of measures needed which anti-communist "socialists" may consider too "mean" or "authoritarian" which constitute socialism.

The debate is moot.
Last edited by Picentia on Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nilrahrarfan
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Corporate Police State

Postby Nilrahrarfan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:36 pm

Neither, and this will get locked anyways.
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Gutulia
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Postby Gutulia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:51 pm

Debate on Sub-forum debate not at Factbook & National Informations forum
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Kyrusia
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Postby Kyrusia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:44 pm

This has the thinnest veneer of In-Character, and not much beyond that. This isn't NSG. If you want to have a political debate, take it there. Nevermind that this thread doesn't meet F&NI's thread requirements. iLock. Do not re-create.
Last edited by Kyrusia on Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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