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The confederacy was... Right?... (Totally not clickbait)

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Ah-eh-ioh-uh
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The confederacy was... Right?... (Totally not clickbait)

Postby Ah-eh-ioh-uh » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:20 pm

I was wondering if there are any other nations out there that also recognize the RIGHT to secession like mine does.



In my nation we have this very interesting little concept where you should only really have people in the nation who are willing to follow the laws of the land and WANT to be part of the nation. It is therefore integral to Vivan culture that seceding from the Empire is not something that would usually be refused but instead something that would instead likely be WELCOMED on some level.

You see, Vivan culture holds liberty pretty much above all things so on some grounds we hold secession to not simply be a thing to be fought over, but rather instead a RIGHT. In Vivan society there are these very strong principles, some of them known as ''consent of the governed' and voluntary participation. There is consequently another one called 'the right to revoke consent'. What this means is that instead of fighting any attempt to secede from the Empire, instead we would probably say good riddance. Our mindset is that anybody that doesn't want to follow our nation's laws or be a part of our society is simply not anybody that we would WANT to have in our nation in the first place. Vivan rationale views forcing such people to stay within the borders of the nation as tantamount to keeping hostile foreigners running rampant through our nation.

Let me clarify, we didn't actually SUPPORT the confederates in case you didn't get the joke of the title. We didn't at ALL support the confederate cause in America. But we didn't think the Union was attempting to keep the confederate states in the Union against their will for the right reasons. One idea that circulates through Vivan history is if perhaps the Union could have allowed the confederates to secede, but only on the express condition that they would NOT be taking any slaves with them when they formed their own nation.

If Terravivus was in their place, they might have made it a non negotiable point that any slaves that magnates to flee the south would NOT be returned to their "owners". This is to say because Vivans love liberty and believe in voluntary participation when it comes to living in a society, the Terravivan empire prior to allowing the confederates to secede would probably warn them that upon secession they would be treated as a hostile foreign entity and the Empire would take steps to blockade the south so that the slave trade would be hard pressed to continue on.






Anyways enough of my pointless rambling. By chance I am curious, any other nations recognize the right to secede? Comments are always welcomed of course.
Last edited by Ah-eh-ioh-uh on Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lillorainen
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Postby Lillorainen » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:46 am

Totally not replying to a clickbait ^^

Another interesting point of Vivan legislation that won't appear to be very common in the international community, that's for sure (that being said, you always make these interesting threads, keep this up!). At least I can't imagine that you'll find a lot of other nations that have such a Right to secede in their national law.

You won't be surprised that the Federation of Lillorainen (hereafter called FL, just saying to avoid confusion ;)) does not have such a right. The Federal Constitution actually doesn't provide any legal process for the case a state wishes to leave the FL, which is probably caused by the fact that no state has ever tried to do so within these 37 years since the Federation as such got established. If a territory wishes to join the FL (never happened, either, but there's an article for that, just in case), it has to be approved by a popular vote, the respective governing entity (if applicable), the State Chamber, as well as the Meritocratic Council - a 75% majority in each case needed. If these requirements are met for the case a state wishes to secede from the FL, it might be possible. However, this is unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future.

If a territory trying to secede does so in a violent matter, then, of course, we'll react accordingly. But this is even less likely to happen soon. Actually, the overwhelming majority of people does like being citizens of the FL. Those who don't tend to just emigrate (which no one hinders them from).
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Ah-eh-ioh-uh
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Postby Ah-eh-ioh-uh » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:58 am

Lillorainen wrote:Totally not replying to a clickbait ^^

Another interesting point of Vivan legislation that won't appear to be very common in the international community, that's for sure (that being said, you always make these interesting threads, keep this up!). At least I can't imagine that you'll find a lot of other nations that have such a Right to secede in their national law.

You won't be surprised that the Federation of Lillorainen (hereafter called FL, just saying to avoid confusion ;)) does not have such a right. The Federal Constitution actually doesn't provide any legal process for the case a state wishes to leave the FL, which is probably caused by the fact that no state has ever tried to do so within these 37 years since the Federation as such got established. If a territory wishes to join the FL (never happened, either, but there's an article for that, just in case), it has to be approved by a popular vote, the respective governing entity (if applicable), the State Chamber, as well as the Meritocratic Council - a 75% majority in each case needed. If these requirements are met for the case a state wishes to secede from the FL, it might be possible. However, this is unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future.

If a territory trying to secede does so in a violent matter, then, of course, we'll react accordingly. But this is even less likely to happen soon. Actually, the overwhelming majority of people does like being citizens of the FL. Those who don't tend to just emigrate (which no one hinders them from).


Oh that's so sweet of you! I didn't know I had a fan. I'm quite flattered someone has followed my posts on a continuous basis. Yeah, no one has ever tried to secede from the Empire before either though we've had some folks wanting into it. The only reason the idea of the right to secession was ever even considered was because the nation gained knowledge of OTHER nations dealing with independence revolution stuff going on and thought, "gee wizz you guys. If they don't want to be with you why the hell would YOU want to be with them?".

In Vivan mindset you can't expect someone to follow laws of a nation they no longer want to even live in. (It violates the very concept of voluntary participation and whatnot). If you make them stay all it means is that now you have a very high population of people who basically amount to criminals and internal enemies roaming around freely in the nation causing trouble. For Vivans it's like, "if you don't like our country go somewhere else, heck even start your own if you wish but just get the hell out of our hair".
Last edited by Ah-eh-ioh-uh on Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Lillorainen
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Postby Lillorainen » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:57 am

Ah-eh-ioh-uh wrote:
Lillorainen wrote:Totally not replying to a clickbait ^^

Another interesting point of Vivan legislation that won't appear to be very common in the international community, that's for sure (that being said, you always make these interesting threads, keep this up!). At least I can't imagine that you'll find a lot of other nations that have such a Right to secede in their national law.

You won't be surprised that the Federation of Lillorainen (hereafter called FL, just saying to avoid confusion ;)) does not have such a right. The Federal Constitution actually doesn't provide any legal process for the case a state wishes to leave the FL, which is probably caused by the fact that no state has ever tried to do so within these 37 years since the Federation as such got established. If a territory wishes to join the FL (never happened, either, but there's an article for that, just in case), it has to be approved by a popular vote, the respective governing entity (if applicable), the State Chamber, as well as the Meritocratic Council - a 75% majority in each case needed. If these requirements are met for the case a state wishes to secede from the FL, it might be possible. However, this is unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future.

If a territory trying to secede does so in a violent matter, then, of course, we'll react accordingly. But this is even less likely to happen soon. Actually, the overwhelming majority of people does like being citizens of the FL. Those who don't tend to just emigrate (which no one hinders them from).


Oh that's so sweet of you! I didn't know I had a fan. I'm quite flattered someone has followed my posts on a continuous basis. Yeah, no one has ever tried to secede from the Empire before either though we've had some folks wanting into it. The only reason the idea of the right to secession was ever even considered was because the nation gained knowledge of OTHER nations dealing with independence revolution stuff going on and thought, "gee wizz you guys. If they don't want to be with you why the hell would YOU want to be with them?".

In Vivan mindset you can't expect someone to follow laws of a nation they no longer want to even live in. (It violates the very concept of voluntary participation and whatnot). If you make them stay all it means is that now you have a very high population of people who basically amount to criminals and internal enemies roaming around freely in the nation causing trouble. For Vivans it's like, "if you don't like our country go somewhere else, heck even start your own if you wish but just get the hell out of our hair".

Well, I sort of fell for a clickbait, too ... ;)

In addition, I should have mentioned that the constituent republics (or states) the FL is made up of are already relatively autonomous - it's a federation, after all. States mostly make their own laws; only very basic things are decided on a federal level. Aside from that, the states are quite dependent on each other in economic terms - or better say, they profit from each other a lot. While the country as a whole is quite self-sufficient, the economy is mostly strong due to an inter-state trade matrix and an efficient infrastructure everyone profits from.

Thus, there isn't really much of a point for territories deciding to secede from the FL. It would have more disadvantages than benefits for the territory in question.
Last edited by Lillorainen on Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Estado Novo Portugues
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Postby Estado Novo Portugues » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:15 am

The Ecclesiastical State of Portugal does not recognise any such right. Separatists are considered terrorists, and dealt with accordingly by the Inquisitors as a threat to territorial and spiritual integrity.

It is also difficult to develop separatist feelings in Portugal. Lord Protector Afonso Salazar runs the nation like a very tight ship. The government and policy-making are extremely centralised, and regions have little to no autonomy.
Last edited by Estado Novo Portugues on Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Gandoor
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Postby Gandoor » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:26 am

Despite being a unitary state, yons do have the authority to secede, however, unilateral secession is not allowed.

In order to secede from Gandoor, 75% of the voting residents in the yon must vote in favour of secession and approval of the secession must pass both the yon's House and the Forum (our national legislature) with 75% voting in favour.
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Gerburtsurg
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Postby Gerburtsurg » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:44 am

No one has ever seceded from Gerburtsurg. They never seceded, because they never existed. People forgot they existed, and then forgot that they forgot. As you read this, you will also forget them. Becuase they never existed in the first place.

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Greater Satanic Leviathan
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Postby Greater Satanic Leviathan » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:53 am

Of course self-determination and secession are rights that shall not be infringed!

Any Satanist who seeks spiritual liberation from the hoaxes perpetrated against humanity that are all other religions may exercise their rights and secede from whatever nation they are part of and join the Greater Satanic Leviathan.

However if some people want to form a nation apart from the Leviathan, that is not rebellion but rather putting their spiritual chains back on, it is not secession but herd conformity.

People like that are mindless sheep who just do whatever a shepherd tells them. They deserve to be treated like sheep: herded and fleeced, or in other words, coerced into providing monetary value whether through forced labor in a labor camp or being sold in a slave market.

Besides enslavement, we also practice mass retaliation against communities that go against the Leviathan, including mass torture and execution in the style of the ancient rulers of Mesopotamia.

As for the American civil war, we take no specific interest since both sides were of the Christian faith, but recognize that if a nation allows any part of it to leave without following some protocol that was established and agreed upon beforehand, then it is committing national suicide because after that anyone can walk away over any trifling issue. At that point might as well require all decisions of the government to be unanimous or some other such unworkable scheme.

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Silver Commonwealth
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Postby Silver Commonwealth » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:39 am

There have been secession attempts, but they have mostly been handled down by either military force, on in later years- a larger degree of autonomy. We are a worldwide Commonwealth, but our States have a large deal of autonomy, and local nationalism going on. This system is also pretty fragile at times, though.
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Aldina
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Postby Aldina » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:05 pm

Imperial provinces are not permitted to unilaterally secede. They can, however, petition to lawfully secede with the approval of the Imperial crown.
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Luziyca
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Postby Luziyca » Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:52 am

Constituent republics (as well as overseas territories, though that point is moot since we don't have any overseas territories since '68 or so) are the only entities that can legally secede from Luziyca, and even then, it can only take place via a referendum.

States of Luziyca cannot secede, though.
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Postby Auzkhia » Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:53 pm

The constitution makes no mention of secession, it does make mention of territorial integrity and defines the realm as the lands of the members of the German Confederation in 1848, lands that wish to join the realm, and that all states swore perpetual fealty to the Emperor. It is implied to be banned. If a state wished to leave, it would have to leave on the consent of the federal government, which would reject any attempt at secession. It's possible only if somehow a state can convince the empire to grant it its independence. Officially such matter is extrajudicial, the law does not even consider it as the lawmakers at the time thought that such measures would only happen in defeats in war, and war, per the constitution, is a federal matter.
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Postby Aikoland » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:06 pm

Secession from Aikoland is expressly prohibited by the constitution, which declares that the states of Japan, Korea, and Taiwan are 'permanently unified and bonded as the three states of Aikoland'.
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Postby Kowani » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:11 pm

Pssh. “Right to secede”. In Kowani, the only rights are the ones the government gives you. (Which often seem to line up with the Constitution, wonder why...). Attempting to secede from the Allied States is treason, and is punishable with lifetime and prison.
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Postby Victorious Decepticons » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:03 am

Attempting to secede is high treason, and punished with the fastest death we can visit upon the offenders.

Any areas that attempt it would be immediately occupied by the Decepticon Military, and then the rebels would be summarily exterminated in their entirety before good, loyal citizens were encouraged to move in to take their places. We do not tolerate any rebels, not even as slaves in our mines, because rebels will cause nothing but trouble (and try to foment more rebellion) as long as they are alive. It's always best to just eradicate them on the spot wherever they may be.
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Postby Vallermoore » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:27 pm

If you try and secede in Vallermoore it's jail time, unless someone dies in your rebellion which gets you the death penalty.

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Victoria I Penetravir
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Postby Victoria I Penetravir » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:30 pm

There has never been a secession attempt from Gothica once...
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Dreshand
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Postby Dreshand » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:11 am

Victoria I Penetravir wrote:There has never been a secession attempt from Gothica once...

Wow that's ominous.
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Ru-
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Postby Ru- » Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:38 pm

Secession would be considered high treason in Ru, and a gross violation of our constitution which contains no provisions to allow for it legally. How it is dealt with exactly would depend on the violence and seriousness of the attempt, but the central government would not react well in any event.
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Prydania
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Postby Prydania » Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:41 pm

*people in the Western March try to secede*

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S i t k a
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Postby S i t k a » Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:49 pm

Any settlement has in the United Settlements of Sitka has the right to secede if 80% of its people agree to it in a referendum, but most Sitkans have no desire to do so, as settlements are already given great autonomy.
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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:53 am

Provinces in Thermodolia have the right to secede. However that right is limited.

Commonwealths: Commonwealths can legally secede from Thermodolia if a referendum on the matter passes 51%

Republics and States: For Republics and States they must have a referendum in which 60% of the people vote in favor. It must then be approved by the National Assembly

Districts: Districts depend on their constitution. Some districts constitutions allow a referendum on the matter which is held to the same standards as the states and the republics. Other districts allow secession but the National Assembly must first allow a referendum to take place of which 60% must vote in favor following which the National Assembly must approve it again. Then there are those Districts which prohibit secession

Territories: For Territories it depends on their Governance Act. For the one whose Governance Act allows secession the National Assembly must first approve a referendum on the matter. Such referendum must have 75% of the people voting in favor. After which the National Assembly must again approve the referendum with 75% of the National Assembly voting in favor.

Military Administration Zones and Occupied Territories are prohibited from seceding.
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TURTLESHROOM II
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Postby TURTLESHROOM II » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:01 pm

Yes. TurtleShroom does recognize the fundamental human right to secede and assert self-rule in most cases.
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Hamidiye
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Founded: Jan 06, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Hamidiye » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:04 pm

Image
Hamidiye Hafif Süvari Alayları on the way to punish some rebels.

The subjects have a duty to the State and the Sultan. All within the realm is the personal property of the Sultan and the Hamitoğulları family. Deserters will be executed, as will thieves and rebels. Sending the cavalry to pacify a region is a time-honoured tradition and a good old solid beheading is the only answer to treason.
Last edited by Hamidiye on Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cives, floreat Europa
Opus magnum vocat vos
Stellae signa sunt in caelo
Aureae, quae iungant nos
-ПТН--ХЛО-
☪ 1881 - 193∞!
Pro: Social Authoritarianism, Kemalism, Militarism. Contra: liberalism, capitalism, communism, progressivism, religion

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Holoska
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Posts: 689
Founded: Nov 28, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Holoska » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:33 am

I mean, technically you can secede, you'd just have to hope that the Empire wouldn't come down on you like a ton of bricks. Sure, in theory you could if you could either get enough foreign nations to back you up or if you beat back the Empire's military, or if the Empire agreed to allow your secession for whatever reason. But don't expect them to just let you go without some kind of fight, either legislative, diplomatic, or military.

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