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Compulsory education outlawed

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Ah-eh-ioh-uh
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Compulsory education outlawed

Postby Ah-eh-ioh-uh » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:49 am

My nation has a very unique history when it comes to this subject but I want to know if any other nations are similar. Any other nations out there illegalized the practice of compulsory education like mine did? I've got a few interesting stories when it comes to this subject and it explains my nation's views on it.



Throughout history the occasional at least a few Vivans have entertained the idea of certain laws for a person's own good. One of those topics up for discussion has been the idea of compulsory education. Vivan culture has recognized the pure intentions of such an idea. It is quite a noble thing to wish for children to be learned and scholarly. To wish for children to be prepared for the twists and turns of the real world. These propositions of course has time and time again been struck down by the freedom loving public in the name of liberty. Vivans hold self determination to be paramount to their way of life and have noted the value of restraint when enforcing laws. (There's more on this subject to be added, comments are welcomed).

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Hamidiye
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Postby Hamidiye » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:19 am

No, the precise opposite in fact. A stupid sibject does not prosper and thus cannot be fleeced by the local defterdar for the war-effort of the empire. Along the late 16th century public education shifted in focus, was beginning to be seen as useful towards the war-effort of the Empire. A stupid soldier who cannot read and count is not exactly useful either.
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Ah-eh-ioh-uh
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Postby Ah-eh-ioh-uh » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:27 am

Over time the world around Terravivus has turned towards a more coercive sort of society and somewhere around the 16th century ACE in a neighboring continent compulsory education started to become a popular enactment. Vivans were first merely puzzled by the idea of it at first. This puzzlement soon turned to anger as Vivans became aware of the fact that over time compulsory education meant being dragged off to school by FORCE from police intervention. On one occasion in the 18th century ACE there was an incident where the most unlikely of people made their way to Vivan territory in an attempt to escape nations where this was common practice. When the border authorities apprehended that very first fugitive whom made his way here in this manner, they were sick and horrified and appalled by the tales and accounts of these children on this practice abroad. After a brief period of delegation, border custom juggling and political navigation, the Terravivan border authorities decided to allow this child through the next stage of border processes. The issue had been brought up through the grapevine and Terravivus had decided that any child seeking asylum in the nation to escape compulsory education practices abroad would NOT be immediately turned away and back to the authorities in their nation. The child is said to have been allowed into the nation and given citizenship. It is said that he was given a home with a nice family somewhere in the Empire. Information surrounding the parents is unknown and undisclosed but most historians assumed the parents grew old and died, never even knowing why authorities never found their son. It is possible this child later grew up and went abroad to reconnect with his family but this is just speculation.

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Blodrike
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Postby Blodrike » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:29 am

Such a thing never existed in Blodrike in the first place. Just like forcing citizens to sing a national anthem or recite a pledge of allegiance, compulsory education is nothing but another form of indoctrination. Which we consider harmful, no matter if the indoctrinating is done by an individual or the state. Besides, why learn fancy literature and math if all you're going to do is butcher horses?
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Ah-eh-ioh-uh
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Postby Ah-eh-ioh-uh » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:30 am

Hamidiye wrote:No, the precise opposite in fact. A stupid sibject does not prosper and thus cannot be fleeced by the local defterdar for the war-effort of the empire. Along the late 16th century public education shifted in focus, was beginning to be seen as useful towards the war-effort of the Empire. A stupid soldier who cannot read and count is not exactly useful either.


Am I to assume your nation is militaristic and "Fleecing" means trained or forged for battle? Interesting concept.

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Ah-eh-ioh-uh
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Postby Ah-eh-ioh-uh » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:35 am

This law eventually turned out to create much political unrest seeing as parents of runaway children might possibly want to regain custody of their children in time. Terravivan law has never implemented this kind of compulsory education in its entire history and Vivan society finds the way other nations do this abhorrent. The idea that a police officer can accost a random law abiding citizen on the street on the basis of how (young) they appear and demand to see their identification is considered an abomination against the culture of Vivan society. The Vivan Empire furthermore finds grave disgust with the idea that simply on the basis of age a police officer can then forcibly lay hands on a person and drag them all the way to what to Vivans sounds an awful lot like a brainwashing facility. This practice in other nations is tantamount to kidnapping in the Vivan perspective and is currently legally given labels such as brainwashing, kidnapping, indoctrination and illegal discrimination.

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Hamidiye
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Postby Hamidiye » Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:50 am

Ah-eh-ioh-uh wrote:
Hamidiye wrote:No, the precise opposite in fact. A stupid sibject does not prosper and thus cannot be fleeced by the local defterdar for the war-effort of the empire. Along the late 16th century public education shifted in focus, was beginning to be seen as useful towards the war-effort of the Empire. A stupid soldier who cannot read and count is not exactly useful either.


Am I to assume your nation is militaristic and "Fleecing" means trained or forged for battle? Interesting concept.


Uneducated citizens mean less tax income, and war costs money. Besides uneducated people make for bad soldiers, not to mention the ideological component.
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Oswyn Islands
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Postby Oswyn Islands » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:34 am

By Gott, nein! Public and compulsory education is deeply entrenched in our society. Only lunatics and anarchists would argue against compulsory education.
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Alpenzell
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Postby Alpenzell » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:53 am

Oswyn Islands wrote:By Gott, nein! Public and compulsory education is deeply entrenched in our society. Only lunatics and anarchists would argue against compulsory education.

This sentiment is shared by Alpenzellers.

A compulsory state education is the foundation of an actualized populace who are aware of their rights, have a basic moral compass, and can think critically. A homeschooled person or a wilfull drop-out will lack a proper and balanced basic education; they will have a much harder time being culturally, politically, and economically engaged in society.
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Greater Satanic Leviathan
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Postby Greater Satanic Leviathan » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:16 am

We are going the opposite direction. Although education has been traditionally provided by church, mosque, and synagogue, we now see the need for a mandatory public education system where children will be taught Satanic moral values such as Darwinism, abortion, contraception, marijuana, and rock music.

Our government is considering legislation to establish such a system and make it mandatory. If parents want their children to learn their religion they can do that after school.

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Ah-eh-ioh-uh
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Postby Ah-eh-ioh-uh » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:44 am

After that incident a new border policy was put in place to give minors escaping kidnapping and forced indoctrination a path to citizenship. Before that time the way other nations have compulsory education was not necessarily illegal simply because of the fact that the idea of forced learning had scarcely even CROSSED the minds of Terravivans in the first place. But after the fact that this practice was prevalent in much of the rest of the world became known, a new law explicitly BANNING such a practice was put in place. Such a practice from then on was considered unconstitutional, uncivilized, barbaric and illegal. Terravivus then proceeded to declare any nation with those sorts of laws in place guilty of nationwide brainwashing and kidnapping, illegal discrimination and has faced a severe diplomatic penalty because of it. The Terravivan Empire actually ceased to recognized the legitimate authority of all nations that practiced this law (if it had ever even been recognized in the first place) and every nation practicing this law has been determined to be an illegal nation.

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Ah-eh-ioh-uh
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Postby Ah-eh-ioh-uh » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:48 am

Oswyn Islands wrote:By Gott, nein! Public and compulsory education is deeply entrenched in our society. Only lunatics and anarchists would argue against compulsory education.


I'm guessing that's German? I'm not a languge expert but I expect your nation has some things shared with German culture?

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Oswyn Islands
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Postby Oswyn Islands » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:49 am

Ah-eh-ioh-uh wrote:
Oswyn Islands wrote:By Gott, nein! Public and compulsory education is deeply entrenched in our society. Only lunatics and anarchists would argue against compulsory education.


I'm guessing that's German? I'm not a languge expert but I expect your nation has some things shared with German culture?

Oswyn Islands, or known locally and in Germany/Austria as Paradiesinseln, was a Prussian and later German colony from the late 1700s and on until the First World War. It was then under British administration but had resented the Brits until independence in 1975.
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Ah-eh-ioh-uh
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Postby Ah-eh-ioh-uh » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:55 am

Heated discussion sparked by this incident called into question what to do about parents who would petition to get their child back. Eventually other nations would accuse Terravivus of child kidnapping and many Terravivans turned such an accusation back on the other nations, noting how law enforcement forcibly drag children off to some location against their will. Vivan authority delegated that sending that child back to the nation he came from was absolutely unthinkable and would be tantamount to aiding in immoral actions seeing as compulsory education is considered wrong in Vivan culture. It was decided that many families from nations with compulsory education would be barred from living in the Empire. The logic was that any parents who allow armed men to put hands on their children and drag them somewhere against their will are unfit for parenthood. Most parents with children in these nations are forbidden from having children in the Empire as well.

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Alpenzell
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Postby Alpenzell » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:22 am

Ah-eh-ioh-uh wrote:
Heated discussion sparked by this incident called into question what to do about parents who would petition to get their child back. Eventually other nations would accuse Terravivus of child kidnapping and many Terravivans turned such an accusation back on the other nations, noting how law enforcement forcibly drag children off to some location against their will. Vivan authority delegated that sending that child back to the nation he came from was absolutely unthinkable and would be tantamount to aiding in immoral actions seeing as compulsory education is considered wrong in Vivan culture. It was decided that many families from nations with compulsory education would be barred from living in the Empire. The logic was that any parents who allow armed men to put hands on their children and drag them somewhere against their will are unfit for parenthood. Most parents with children in these nations are forbidden from having children in the Empire as well.

I'm not sure you understand how sovereignty works. Though your government absolutely has the right to bar foreigners from living within your borders, a family living in your country would be bound by your country's laws, regardless of where they come from.

Another country would have no inherent right to snatch and forcibly repatriate individuals for civic matters - doing so would be a costly covert operation and risks triggering an international backlash.
Last edited by Alpenzell on Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Ah-eh-ioh-uh
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Postby Ah-eh-ioh-uh » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:59 am

Alpenzell wrote:
Ah-eh-ioh-uh wrote:
Heated discussion sparked by this incident called into question what to do about parents who would petition to get their child back. Eventually other nations would accuse Terravivus of child kidnapping and many Terravivans turned such an accusation back on the other nations, noting how law enforcement forcibly drag children off to some location against their will. Vivan authority delegated that sending that child back to the nation he came from was absolutely unthinkable and would be tantamount to aiding in immoral actions seeing as compulsory education is considered wrong in Vivan culture. It was decided that many families from nations with compulsory education would be barred from living in the Empire. The logic was that any parents who allow armed men to put hands on their children and drag them somewhere against their will are unfit for parenthood. Most parents with children in these nations are forbidden from having children in the Empire as well.

I'm not sure you understand how sovereignty works. Though your government absolutely has the right to bar foreigners from living within your borders, a family living in your country would be bound by your country's laws, regardless of where they come from.

Another country would have no inherent right to snatch and forcibly repatriate individuals for civic matters - doing so would be a costly covert operation and risks triggering an international backlash.


If the child doesn't want to go back to the nation and we refuse to turn him over it is not forcible repatriation in our eyes. And yes, you may be saying that it is forcible because he is a minor, but note how he is a minor in THAT nation, not ours. We see the right to be free from forced education something that trancends notions of age and is a matter of civil rights. We recognize the child's right to live here if he wishes. If he doesn't and we still keep him then that would be forcible repatriation. Of course in that nation the child may not be labeled as a person but here for the purposes of this case he IS a person, even if his frontal lobe isn't developed his right to not be given to unfit parents is more important. Vivan philosophy would not allow authorities to send him back against his will. It isn't snatching if he's already here and during that time at least, not many a nation really wanted to pick a fight.

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Postby Old Beringia » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:08 pm

Beringian children are required to be educated for the good of the nation as a whole, regardless of what path in life is chosen for them. There was a brief period during the Civil War (1984-1999) where such policies were suspended citing the welfare of children. During that time parents were directed to home school their children if public schooling would endanger their lives. The growing number of unaccompanied minors were generally still schooled in programs administered by provincial governments. These policies were quickly overturned following the end of the war and a massive program was undertaken by the government to locate and educate the children around the nation.

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Ah-eh-ioh-uh
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Postby Ah-eh-ioh-uh » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:31 pm

Eventually as time progressed these issues started to become more and more relevant. More and more people where being turned away at the border after this incident. There's a story a constable from a neighboring country who attempted to go through customs and was arrested. He confessed to being unaware of all the local border laws and it was explained to him that if his nation's laws demanded that he kidnap children and force learning on them, he was practically guilty of those actions simply by virtue of being law enforcement. He spent some time in the Vivan correctional system and was eventually convinced to see things from the Vivan perspective. After being released he eventually decided to migrate to Terravivus. Regardless of the eventual outcome it sparked outrage in the neighboring country where he was from. The fact that Vivan authorities saw fit to arrest a citizen that was not one of their own. Things where smoothed over diplomatically seeing as he was merely sent to a rehabilitative penal colony and wasn't mistreated, not to mention he eventually learned to see things from a Vivan point of view so he had decided not to push for action against the nation.

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Calaius
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Postby Calaius » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:35 pm

To NOT go to school and get an education, at least a high school diploma is outlawed here. We dont want the stupid kind here. Stupidity breeds more stupidity. That breeds poverty and crime. Those breed violence and drugs.

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Brystolville
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Postby Brystolville » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:26 pm

Education is very compulsory in Brystolville. All children from age 5 to age 21 must be in school from 7:00 in the morning until 5:00 at night, or until 6:00 at night in Brystolville City. Homeschooling is banned, and almost all students attend state schools. Some 112 independent schools and faith schools remain in Brystolville, though Parliament has been considering legislation to close these institutions and integrate students with their peers.

Truancy is taken very seriously in Brystolville. In the City of Brystolville, the Metropolitan Police maintains a Truant Division separate from the Schools Division/School Police to investigate absences and apprehend truant students. Outside the City, each commune must employ at least one full-time truant officer per 1,000 students as part of its Commune Police staff. Parents can be fined between £250 and £500 for absences, and higher fines of up to £1,000 can be authorised by a judge in cases of habitual truants. Truant officers work closely with the Community Safety Agency and the various welfare agencies to ensure that parents' poverty, abusive behaviour, reactionary political views, religion, and illiteracy do not hold students back from attending school. Serious habitual cases can be transferred to Closed Residential Schools (Type 1).

All children in Brystolville must take the National Baccalaureate Exam at age 18 (unless excused or adjusted for disability) and the National Leaving Exam at age 21. Students who fail the NBE are transferred to Closed Residential Schools (Type 2) until they pass or age out of the school system at 21.
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Postby Estado Novo Portugues » Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:21 am

Only religious (Catholic) education is compulsory in the Ecclesiastical State. Other subjects, especially the sciences, are considered useless or even heretical. In addition, male citizens have an obligation to perform 2 years of military service.
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Postby Great Nortend » Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:39 am

In Great Nortend, there is compulsory education provided in conjunction with the Church of Nortend and the Board of Schools. Every state school and nearly every independent school is operated or associated with the Church of Nortend, given that school masters are required by law to hold licences from their diocesan bishop.
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Lillorainen
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Postby Lillorainen » Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:48 am

While the competence education politics are entirely left up to the single constituent states, school education is compulsory all over the Federation of Lillorainen. All States have already introduced this policy long before the FL was formed. While the original reason was to prevent children from ending up in 'sweat shops', we nowadays consider a well-educated populace a pillar of society that is not only beneficial, but inevitably necessary for the whole country. We believe that, at least our society couldn't work without any basic education for everyone. (Yours might be different, though - this is a statement, not a judgement.)
Since Lillorainen's geography is currently being overhauled a 'tiny' bit, most information on it posted before December 12, 2018, is not entirely reliable anymore. Until there's a new, proper factfile, everything you might need to know can be found here. Thank you. #RetconOfDoom

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Ah-eh-ioh-uh
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Postby Ah-eh-ioh-uh » Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:17 pm

Lillorainen wrote:While the competence education politics are entirely left up to the single constituent states, school education is compulsory all over the Federation of Lillorainen. All States have already introduced this policy long before the FL was formed. While the original reason was to prevent children from ending up in 'sweat shops', we nowadays consider a well-educated populace a pillar of society that is not only beneficial, but inevitably necessary for the whole country. We believe that, at least our society couldn't work without any basic education for everyone. (Yours might be different, though - this is a statement, not a judgement.)


Oh don't you worry about a thing dear friend. I took no offense at all. You see, Terravivus simply does not have compulsory education the way where a police officer is allowed to place their hands on the children and force them to attend against their will. We DO however have laws in place that prohibit parents from explicitly BARRING children from an education. You see, The Empire requires parents to make some EFFORT to at least teach a child the basics. Education across the empire is free and no parent may interfere in the child's thirst for knowledge. Homeschooling and home tutors are VERY common here. A parent is required by law to offer the child some pathway into learning the ins and outs of navigating through Vivan society as a respectable and well educated citizen. This is very flexible and can be anything from simply teaching them at home, hiring tutors or public/private schooling.

There IS a curriculum but it IS practical and COMPLETELY applicable to day to day life. This can even be simply letting the child have free and unrestricted access through a library. There is a curriculum but that doesn't mean they aren't allowed to learn anything ELSE. Along with the required curriculum there are any number of electives a child may indulge in. The bottom line is though, is that police officers must absolutely NEVER place their hands on a child in the way that other nations have truancy officers. To see a grown person seize hold of a child and put them into a vehicle makes Vivans quite uncomfortable here and is seen as kidnapping rather than law enforcement here.

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Lillorainen
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Postby Lillorainen » Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:26 pm

Ah-eh-ioh-uh wrote:
Lillorainen wrote:While the competence education politics are entirely left up to the single constituent states, school education is compulsory all over the Federation of Lillorainen. All States have already introduced this policy long before the FL was formed. While the original reason was to prevent children from ending up in 'sweat shops', we nowadays consider a well-educated populace a pillar of society that is not only beneficial, but inevitably necessary for the whole country. We believe that, at least our society couldn't work without any basic education for everyone. (Yours might be different, though - this is a statement, not a judgement.)


Oh don't you worry about a thing dear friend. I took no offense at all. You see, Terravivus simply does not have compulsory education the way where a police officer is allowed to place their hands on the children and force them to attend against their will. We DO however have laws in place that prohibit parents from explicitly BARRING children from an education. You see, The Empire requires parents to make some EFFORT to at least teach a child the basics. Education across the empire is free and no parent may interfere in the child's thirst for knowledge. Homeschooling and home tutors are VERY common here. A parent is required by law to offer the child some pathway into learning the ins and outs of navigating through Vivan society as a respectable and well educated citizen. This is very flexible and can be anything from simply teaching them at home, hiring tutors or public/private schooling.

There IS a curriculum but it IS practical and COMPLETELY applicable to day to day life. This can even be simply letting the child have free and unrestricted access through a library. There is a curriculum but that doesn't mean they aren't allowed to learn anything ELSE. Along with the required curriculum there are any number of electives a child may indulge in. The bottom line is though, is that police officers must absolutely NEVER place their hands on a child in the way that other nations have truancy officers. To see a grown person seize hold of a child and put them into a vehicle makes Vivans quite uncomfortable here and is seen as kidnapping rather than law enforcement here.

Ah, I see. I've already assumed that getting rid of mandatory schooling makes more sense for your society rather than for, let's say for this case, ours. Thinking it through, it's quite a reasonable alternative model - similar ones have already been considered in the FL - so the paragraph above just displays the status quo. Nothing's forever. Not even we are. ^^
Since Lillorainen's geography is currently being overhauled a 'tiny' bit, most information on it posted before December 12, 2018, is not entirely reliable anymore. Until there's a new, proper factfile, everything you might need to know can be found here. Thank you. #RetconOfDoom

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