NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Vol. 11.0

[Interplanetary Corix Federation]

Hello, I have a question that is more FT related, I was wondering just how effective and efficient of a weapon an AR-15 style weapon would be for a military that has to protect a civilization which spans multiple planets, and also has to conduct ship-to-ship boarding actions in space, would it be sufficient or are there better weapons for the job?

[Manokan Republic]

Hello, I have a question that is more FT related, I was wondering just how effective and efficient of a weapon an AR-15 style weapon would be for a military that has to protect a civilization which spans multiple planets, and also has to conduct ship-to-ship boarding actions in space, would it be sufficient or are there better weapons for the job?

Since gunpowder often burns up a littler bit of oxygen and is relatively weak for space tech, as in it likely wouldn't get through body armor, the likely answer is would be pretty bad. I'd recommend some kind of future space weapon like a railgun or plasma rifle. At least some kind of recoil reducing .338 lapua or something.

[Manokan Republic]

I’m going to drive a car purely by looking through video cameras. Wish me luck.

It has been done! And virtually all drones operate this way, that is by camera. The trade-offs of a smaller size justify the initial awkwardness and as technology improves, or with proper training this can be easily gotten over.

[The Akasha Colony]

Hello, I have a question that is more FT related, I was wondering just how effective and efficient of a weapon an AR-15 style weapon would be for a military that has to protect a civilization which spans multiple planets, and also has to conduct ship-to-ship boarding actions in space, would it be sufficient or are there better weapons for the job?

If you've got full FT tech, you can most likely get something better. In fact, better alternatives already exist IRL.

But this is probably a question for the FT advice thread in II.

[The Corparation]

You can, but it's not really about drones. (My role in it was actually mainly just finding sites and information for the report authors.)

I'm credited though!

http://armamentresearch.com/Uploads/Res ... 0Flags.pdf

Not about drones, but it'll still make a good read. Thanks

[Theodosiya]

Regarding the FSV, I might use BMD instead, maybe could cram a 105mm at one variant and 1 30mm and 8 ATGM on other variant, give new engine and additional armor, max weight 20t.

[Allanea]

At this point why are we not using BMP?

[Crookfur]

At this point why are we not using BMP?

IIRC airborne mechanization. Or something

[Celitannia]

Manoka is a senile Eric Shinseki y/n

[Manokan Republic]

At this point why are we not using BMP?

Because silly, we use an 84 ton tank to transport troops and make them impervious to bullets and IED's. This super heavy transport vehicle protects our infantry from all attacks, and then has a tank cannon on top to take on other tanks.

While we want our tanks, which are essentially just tank killers, to be as light weight and maneuverable as possible. It makes perfect sense when you think about it.

[Austrasien]

Tanks are for attacking.

[Gallia-]

Manoka is a senile Eric Shinseki y/n

Shinseki's idea was that you'd make a piece of armor that weighs 5 lbs and protects like a 30 lbs plate. Manoka's idea is that you don't need armor in the first place? So no, Shinseki has enough of an education to realize what the actual problem is, he just lacked the education to realize that it's really, really hard to fix the "problem" and couldn't approach it any other way besides the most direct solution.

Tank is too heavy? Make it lighter! Not like, invest in better transportation infrastructure or something.

[Manokan Republic]

Manoka is a senile Eric Shinseki y/n

Shinseki's idea was that you'd make a piece of armor that weighs 5 lbs and protects like a 30 lbs plate. Manoka's idea is that you don't need armor in the first place? So no, Shinseki has enough of an education to realize what the actual problem is, he just lacked the education to realize that it's really, really hard to fix the "problem" and couldn't approach it any other way besides the most direct solution.

Tank is too heavy? Make it lighter! Not like, invest in better transportation infrastructure or something.

The basic idea is to reduce the overall protected volume space by removing room traditionally needed for the crew to move around in and serve as spotters in, and used an automated reloader. A few other measures such as, perhaps using a muzzle break so the cannon doesn't have to recoil as far, thus decreasing the size of the turret and internal space needed for the weapon to recoil, and a hybrid system which loses a few tons, but might gain them back in battery size, could further reduce the size of the vehicle. On top of this you could use a smaller engine, which would take up less space, but more importantly you could remove the crank shaft of that goes from the engine to the turret. In most large tank designs the turret is literally moved around by the engine, and a lot of empty dead space is needed for this to work, particularly right dab in the middle of the tank which increases the volume of the tank, the most. By having this powered by an electric motor that doesn't need a direct physical connection to the engine, you reduce the overall size needed of the tank further, and remove a lot of the internal volume that essentially is just wasted space in most tanks, especially right in the middle of the tank.

By finally removing all of this now unnecessary volume, you reduce the tank size enough to be usefully lighter weight. Since tanks really shouldn't be bigger than they need to be, with them not transporting infantry or anything like that and mostly being used for light infantry support or, anti-vehicle duties, you can reduce the size to something much smaller, say the size of a tank killer. You add on top of that a 20% reduction in weight for using stronger materials and, you get yourself a much lighter tank, maybe even 35-40 tons. There are various examples of these methods being used, but not all together as of yet. But it will be the tank design of the future!

[Celitannia]

Yeah he's a troll.

[Gallia-]

Shinseki's idea was that you'd make a piece of armor that weighs 5 lbs and protects like a 30 lbs plate. Manoka's idea is that you don't need armor in the first place? So no, Shinseki has enough of an education to realize what the actual problem is, he just lacked the education to realize that it's really, really hard to fix the "problem" and couldn't approach it any other way besides the most direct solution.

Tank is too heavy? Make it lighter! Not like, invest in better transportation infrastructure or something.

The basic idea is

Like everything in these threads, done before.

[Laywenrania]

By finally removing all of this necessary protected volume, you reduce the tank size enough to be lighter weight. [...]Since tanks really shouldn't be bigger than they need to be, with them not transporting infantry or anything like that and mostly being used for light infantry support [...]But it will be the tank design of the future!

*snipsnip*
Talk no more. I found it.

[Austrasien]

A tank doesn't become 20% lighter simply by substituting new materials. This is reading a PR statement too literally.

~20% is about as much as the weight of a tank can be reduced, compared to mainline MBTs like the M1 and Leopard 2, with existing technology without significantly degrading performance. The bulk of this weight saving would come from a remote turret and a smaller power pack.

[Manokan Republic]

By finally removing all of this necessary protected volume, you reduce the tank size enough to be lighter weight. [...]Since tanks really shouldn't be bigger than they need to be, with them not transporting infantry or anything like that and mostly being used for light infantry support [...]But it will be the tank design of the future!

*snipsnip*
Talk no more. I found it.

My God... he's cracked the code...

All these years, it's finally here!

[Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502]

Maybe Manokan is actually Sparky IRL?

[Theodosiya]

At this point why are we not using BMP?

IIRC airborne mechanization. Or something

Not for mechanization. More like fire support from 30mm and 105mm. Wiesel too small for 105mm.

[Manokan Republic]

A tank doesn't become 20% lighter simply by substituting new materials. This is reading a PR statement too literally.

~20% is about as much as the weight of a tank can be reduced, compared to mainline MBTs like the M1 and Leopard 2, with existing technology without significantly degrading performance. The bulk of this weight saving would come from a remote turret and a smaller power pack.

Using modern higher strength materials you can reduce the weight of the armor quite a bit. For example, modern day ceramics are much stronger than they used to be, such as those used in the Chobham armor, as are metal alloys. AMAP for example has developed steel that is 30% lighter, titanium that is only 38% of the weight of steel, and nano-ceramic armor which is 70% harder and 30% lighter-weight than what is traditionally used by NATO, as well as materials that are more fracture resistant and durable to repeated impacts. As it's already being used on light APC's, although as add-on armor, it's not a theoretical material, but already in widespread use. "The new high-hardened steel needs 30% less thickness to offer the same protection level as ARMOX500Z High Hard Armour steel.[1] While Titanium requires only 58% as much weight as rolled homogeneous armour (RHA) for reaching the same level of protection, Mat 7720 new, a newly developed Aluminium-Titanium alloy, needs only 38% of the weight.[1] That means that this alloy is more than twice as protective as RHA of the same weight. AMAP is also making use of new nano-ceramics, which are harder and lighter than current ceramics, while having multi-hit capability. Normal ceramic tiles and a liner backing have a mass-efficiency (EM) value of 3 compared to normal steel armour, while it fulfills STANAG 4569. The new nano-crystalline ceramic materials should increase the hardness compared to current ceramics by 70% and the weight reduction is 30%, therefore the EM value is larger than 4."

Now while I don't know the exact strength of M1 abrams chobham ceramic tiles nor it's steel armor (which is technically classified), I'm willing to hazard a guess that since it was developed in the 1980's, and modern materials that the AMAP are replacing are stronger than what was used in the 1980's, especially with emerging nanotechnology, that the AMAP materials are at least that much stronger than the M1 abrams armor. A 20% drop in weight from newer composite materials is a conservative estimate, with 30-40% not being unreasonable. So, the chobham frame and the outer armor could be lighter (likely would still be steel, though, as titanium is far more expensive/harder to get ahold of), and the ceramics would be lighter and stronger as well. As the ceramic tiles would also be more fracture resistant, you wouldn't need as much rubber backing but, likely would still use it anyways. On top of all of this, you could also reduce the necessary protected volume of the tank, which would shrink it's size further. A big chunk of the size is due to the turret design, which current turrets must have a crank shaft going to the engine, and require a person to be able to fit in and out of it to crawl in and out of the vehicle. Furthermore the recoiling space needed for the cannon to be utilized can be reduced by something like a muzzle break. Traditionally saboted rounds have trouble using muzzle breaks, but with a pepper-pot style muzzle break (used on some Russian vehicles) that would prevent the sabot from being removed until after it exited the muzzle break, we can likely remove this issue, combined with a better hydraulic recoil system, reducing the necessary size of the turret and some internal spacing in the vehicle to absorb that recoil, chiefly here.

A 35 ton tank may be optimistic, but it wouldn't be impossible. Better design elements, such as reducing crew space, having an automated turret, a turret powered with an electric motor rather than directly from the engine, and various newer, more modern materials could reduce the weight of the tank quite a bit for the same degree of protection. Basically reduce the protected volume, then reduce the weight of the armor. Easy peezy. The main issue is the weight of the depleted uranium mesh, so this may be non-reducable except for protected volume, or be replaced with something lighter but just as hard and effective.

[Theodosiya]

Reminder : I'm not looking for tanks. More like slightly beefed up IFV and FSV.

[Ardavia]

In most large tank designs the turret is literally moved around by the engine, and a lot of empty dead space is needed for this to work, particularly right dab in the middle of the tank which increases the volume of the tank, the most.

... You realize that's a CAD schematic of a miniature gasoline engine for a 1/9th scale RC model, yes?

e: from here

[Dostanuot Loj]

Manoka is a senile Eric Shinseki y/n

Shinseki's idea was that you'd make a piece of armor that weighs 5 lbs and protects like a 30 lbs plate. Manoka's idea is that you don't need armor in the first place? So no, Shinseki has enough of an education to realize what the actual problem is, he just lacked the education to realize that it's really, really hard to fix the "problem" and couldn't approach it any other way besides the most direct solution.

Tank is too heavy? Make it lighter! Not like, invest in better transportation infrastructure or something.

Shineski also didn't believe tanks have walkways.

Maybe Manokan is actually Sparky IRL?

No, he's too well written for Sparkey.
But I am inclined to believe he is a regular or former regular from NSMRC or even the Draftroom. I want to know who.

Manokan is literally my favorite troll in years. I have greatly enjoyed the encouragement to post here useful information again.

[Manokan Republic]

In most large tank designs the turret is literally moved around by the engine, and a lot of empty dead space is needed for this to work, particularly right dab in the middle of the tank which increases the volume of the tank, the most.

... You realize that's a CAD schematic of a miniature gasoline engine for a 1/9th scale RC model, yes?

e: from here

It's just an example, it's harder to see the internals from all the messy engine parts in real life. An empty bottom part of the tank shows just how much space the turret and the other parts would take up, but it's hard to tell from that angle and I can't find a better picture.

Anyways, a competition back in the 90's by the U.S. military found a tank design similar to what I'm describing, which by eliminating a manned turret alone saved 22 tons, dropping the weight of the tank down to about 48-50 tons over a standard M1 abrams. This is consistent with the weight of the newer Japanese tank based on this design at 44 tons, and 48 tons for the Russian tank. Furthermore, other design improvements could be used to shrink it further given it was designed in the 90's but, even if we go with 50 tons, the newer materials could drop the weight of the tank by an additional 30% or so, and that's around 38 tons. Pretty close to my estimation. On top of this a hybrid vehicle can shave off approximately 3 tons from the drive train, and/or reduce some of the weight given the crank shift no longer needs to directly attach to the turret itself. This would only shave off so many tons, but would be a drastic improvement on top of the 38 ton weight. Let's say down to 32 tons.

Anyways, all of this is on speculations based on designs that are just barely being implemented, and not in large numbers, but the basic concept should be easty to understand. If you reduce the space needed for crewmembers by replacing them with automated systems or using remote control, the tank becomes smaller. This means a lighter weight. On top of this includes various improvements to the engine and even potentially the armor itself, which drops the weight down. For a decent picture of the design, you can find it here, which it's remarkably similar to the Russian tank, and because the Japanese tank is actually based on the American U.S Army Future Combat Systems 40 ton Prototype Tank, it shouldn't be too hard to implement with existing U.S. M1 abrams armor.