NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Vol. 11.0

[Spirit of Hope]

Does "Army or jail" work for military purposes?

Getting criminals to serve in the armed forces can be bad for military discipline. That said if done in low levels for low level offenders it is unlikely to have any real negative effect. Just don't expect a huge increase in your military force.

Is there a particular thread I can go to for help with writing a realistic war that takes place in the 1920s?

Just ask questions here.

[Cambrian Albany]

Does "Army or jail" work for military purposes?

It can do. Though not for serious crimes, more for delinquent wronguns from impoverished communities who didn’t get a decent start in life. Speaking from some level of experience, the army can really polish turds. Basic training generally breaks folks down and then builds them back up again. Self confidence and camaraderie.

[New Solaurora]

About how many tanks in the early 1920s would be required to create an invading force about 500 miles long? (I am aware that this is not a realistic attack strategy but it was effective in demoralizing and scaring the enemy). This is basically an opening attack so it doesn't need to be too strong, just strong enough to quickly conquer several small countries on the borders.

(Terrain is mostly low hills and farmland)

[Spirit of Hope]

About how many tanks in the early 1920s would be required to create an invading force about 500 miles long? (I am aware that this is not a realistic attack strategy but it was effective in demoralizing and scaring the enemy). This is basically an opening attack so it doesn't need to be too strong, just strong enough to quickly conquer several small countries on the borders.

(Terrain is mostly low hills and farmland)

Do you mean a 500 mile long border that the tanks are attacking across?

None are required, notably the German spring offensive of 1918 used basically no tanks, and the allies in their counter offensive didn't always have tanks to use. The much more important requirement for offensive operations was an understanding of new infantry tactics, both offensive and defensive. Tanks would then be concentrated at points of higher resistance to assist the infantry in breaking through.

[New Solaurora]

Do you mean a 500 mile long border that the tanks are attacking across?

None are required, notably the German spring offensive of 1918 used basically no tanks, and the allies in their counter offensive didn't always have tanks to use. The much more important requirement for offensive operations was an understanding of new infantry tactics, both offensive and defensive. Tanks would then be concentrated at points of higher resistance to assist the infantry in breaking through.

This is more of a demonstration of both resources and military strength than an aggressive campaign. More of a "Look how quickly we conquered these countries! Join us or die!" But I'll have to keep this in mind for the later battles. Thank you!

[The Dolphin Isles]

Do you mean a 500 mile long border that the tanks are attacking across?

None are required, notably the German spring offensive of 1918 used basically no tanks, and the allies in their counteroffensive didn't always have tanks to use. The much more important requirement for offensive operations was an understanding of new infantry tactics, both offensive and defensive. Tanks would then be concentrated at points of higher resistance to assist the infantry in breaking through.

This is more of a demonstration of both resources and military strength than an aggressive campaign. More of a "Look how quickly we conquered these countries! Join us or die!" But I'll have to keep this in mind for the later battles. Thank you!

Considering this is the 1920s and tanks are still well into their infancy, you could send out waves of infantry with tanks attacking where these countries have strongpoints. However, make sure you keep a lot of your tanks in reserve in order to be shown in propaganda newsreels with your tanks "attacking the enemy." Meanwhile, you should make sure that your "mechanized" force is well supported by horses and trucks, so that you can stay mobile and take out these border countries in just a month or two one at a time.

As for your "shock and awe" approach. If anything it might galvanize the enemy against you. Countries tend to fight violently to defend themselves especially if they see the aggressor as especially vicious. The main "shock" will cause these states to just ally themselves with foreign superpowers which will be more than happy to create defensive pacts with them in order to curb your expansionism. Gotta maintain the balance of powers afterall.

[New Solaurora]

Considering this is the 1920s and tanks are still well into their infancy, you could send out waves of infantry with tanks attacking where these countries have strongpoints. However, make sure you keep a lot of your tanks in reserve in order to be shown in propaganda newsreels with your tanks "attacking the enemy." Meanwhile, you should make sure that your "mechanized" force is well supported by horses and trucks, so that you can stay mobile and take out these border countries in just a month or two one at a time.

As for your "shock and awe" approach. If anything it might galvanize the enemy against you. Countries tend to fight violently to defend themselves especially if they see the aggressor as especially vicious. The main "shock" will cause these states to just ally themselves with foreign superpowers which will be more than happy to create defensive pacts with them in order to curb your expansionism. Gotta maintain the balance of powers afterall.

The 'retaliation out of fear' is actually what I'm going for as the main reason why this invasion was the final trigger. At this time my nation would not have any superpowers as allies and could only rely on one nearby ally to help but thank you!
(I realize I should clarify that my nation was not the aggressor but I'm writing about a war it was involved in. Basically 'Big Country' conquers smaller nearby countries. My country and its ally are like "Stop that or else war!" and then 'Big Country' waits until it knows its backside is defended before continuing to conquer nearby territory. Then my nation and my ally fight it because conquering is mean. Then theres a bunch of other guys that come in since they see that everyone else is busy and they try to claim more land. I'm not explaining this well but thats the basic gist.)

[Austrasien]

About how many tanks in the early 1920s would be required to create an invading force about 500 miles long? (I am aware that this is not a realistic attack strategy but it was effective in demoralizing and scaring the enemy). This is basically an opening attack so it doesn't need to be too strong, just strong enough to quickly conquer several small countries on the borders.

(Terrain is mostly low hills and farmland)

About 15,000.

But you don't attack across the whole front at once...

[New Solaurora]

(Image)

About 15,000.

But you don't attack across the whole front at once...

Hmm yeah that's not very plausible. Probably just have them go for cities and points of high resistance.
Thank you!

[Questarian New Yorkshire]

Tanks go where there is no resistance, not where there is most resistance.

[Gallia-]

(Image)

About 15,000.

But you don't attack across the whole front at once...

Hmm yeah that's not very plausible. Probably just have them go for cities and points of high resistance.
Thank you!

Infantrymen go where there is high resistance.

Tanks go where there is little resistance.

[New Solaurora]

Tanks go where there is no resistance, not where there is most resistance.

Infantrymen go where there is high resistance.

Tanks go where there is little resistance.

Right, thanks! (I've never written for wars or battles before so I understand about 0% of it)

[Cossack Peoples]

Hmm yeah that's not very plausible. Probably just have them go for cities and points of high resistance.
Thank you!

Infantrymen go where there is high resistance.

Tanks go where there is little resistance.

Why's that? I understand that resistance is bound to pop up in urban environments and is thus not so agreeable for armored companies, but what role does the modern tank fill if they can't go into combat-heavy areas to support infantry?

[Gallia-]

They die. Tanks attacking something that doesn't realize the tanks are there is how you attack. It's how anything attacks. It's harder to see an infantryman than to see a tank. Which is why infantry attack things that have lots of stuff and tanks don't. Tanks are more likely to be seen/heard/smelled than infantrymen. As long as the tank can maintain surprise it can attack anything. This is hard when you're attacking through an observed obstacle belt like minefields, anti-tank ditches, and fire sacs where you are observed going into the obstacle belt and attacked under surprise. Congratulations, you have lost the fight.

[Cambrian Albany]

They die. Tanks attacking something that doesn't realize the tanks are there is how you attack. It's how anything attacks. It's harder to see an infantryman than to see a tank. Which is why infantry attack things that have lots of stuff and tanks don't. Tanks are more likely to be seen/heard/smelled than infantrymen. As long as the tank can maintain surprise it can attack anything. This is hard when you're attacking through an observed obstacle belt like minefields, anti-tank ditches, and fire sacs where you are observed going into the obstacle belt and attacked under surprise. Congratulations, you have lost the fight.

Most engagements are more or less decided before any rounds are even fired.

[The Manticoran Empire]

Does "Army or jail" work for military purposes?

It depends. For a while the US did something like that, mostly for misdemeanors. You know, drunk and disorderly, DUI, that sort of thing. However, modern recruitment regulations in the US Army, US Air Force, US Marine Corps, and US Coast Guard do not permit the enlistment of persons who attempt enlistment as part of a sentence imposed by a civil court. The US Navy, while not having any regulations prohibiting it, follows the other branches is denying those persons enlistment.

In terms of it actually working, that is more complicated. It can have adverse effects on the morale, discipline, and cohesion of military units but it could also have the potential of ending a major problem found in some modern societies: Reincarceration. A major issue in the US particularly is that many people who have served their prison sentences are often back in prison within months due to new offenses or repeating the original offense. In most cases, this is a result of these former inmates not having many options for employment, as many employers in the US will not hire former prison inmates. There are plenty of US employers who will but plenty won't and that can leave some of these ex-cons with very few options. Combine that with difficulty in getting housing, as banks and landlords may not accept ex-cons for loans or rental agreements, and they find themselves in a situation where they have to continue living but don't have any visible legal options. This leads them to return to crime in order to secure food and shelter, resulting in their re-arrest and reincarceration.
However, if this person were enlisted in the Armed Forces, then they would have a job for several years and, upon re-entering the civilian workforce, would be in a better position to get housing, employment, and other benefits of society than if they had been incarcerated.

Now I'm not sure if there is any statistical data to back this up, mainly because I haven't looked yet, but it strikes me as a distinct possibility of having short-term downsides but long term benefits. Especially if, like the US, a massive percentage of the prison population are underprivileged individuals in prison for minor offenses.

[The Manticoran Empire]

Hmm yeah that's not very plausible. Probably just have them go for cities and points of high resistance.
Thank you!

Infantrymen go where there is high resistance.

Tanks go where there is little resistance.

Except that isn't true.

Tanks fulfill a number of battlefield roles. Among these are creating breakthroughs, exploiting breakthroughs, reconnoitering enemy positions, and supporting infantry units in the assault. In three of these four example roles, the tanks are likely to be engaged by an enemy that knows they are coming and is ready for them. So it is highly inaccurate to state that tanks don't go where resistance is high. It is more accurate to say that the tanks go where the attack goes and the attack SHOULD come at the enemy's weakest point. However, anywhere a tank goes, they will meet resistance and it is likely to be rather fierce for a time. That's why tanks are armored and why you NEVER use tanks alone.

Tanks MUST be combined with infantry, artillery, and air power to achieve operational success. If they don't, even against light resistance the tanks lose.

[New Solaurora]

Okay I got another question. How the heck is the army divided up? So there are armies but then there are subdivisions and then people refer to the small groups by their numbers like 7th division or 201st platoon or something? Can someone explain this to me as if I was a child because I am not understanding how this works?

[Cambrian Albany]

Okay I got another question. How the heck is the army divided up? So there are armies but then there are subdivisions and then people refer to the small groups by their numbers like 7th division or 201st platoon or something? Can someone explain this to me as if I was a child because I am not understanding how this works?

Right, simples first. An army is divided up into Corps, which is divided into Divisions which are divided into Brigades.

Brigades are divided into Battlegroups which are comprised of battalions and companies.
Best now to work bottom up.

10 men make a section, 30 men a platoon, 5 platoons make a company, 5 companies make battalion. Generally. Numbers usually for Everything until brigades -battalions are usually for their role and companies are lettered.

[Crookfur]

Tanks go where there is no resistance, not where there is most resistance.

Infantrymen go where there is high resistance.

Tanks go where there is little resistance.

Right, thanks! (I've never written for wars or battles before so I understand about 0% of it)

It might be worth having a good look at plan 1919, basically JFC fuller's wet dream of smashing the germans with a mind bogglingly huge number of tanks (in the region of 5000 tanks, a mix of heavies and mediums).
Now it does have some potential issues, not least being could the allies rs actually build that many tanks but its the basis for pretty much all major strategic tank warfare that followed under various names (blitzkrieg or deep battle).

Now not everybody got fully on board with the massed tank thing, there were several competing schools of thought and various countries adopted mixed and half arsed solutions.

[Crookfur]

Okay I got another question. How the heck is the army divided up? So there are armies but then there are subdivisions and then people refer to the small groups by their numbers like 7th division or 201st platoon or something? Can someone explain this to me as if I was a child because I am not understanding how this works?

Right, simples first. An army is divided up into Corps, which is divided into Divisions which are divided into Brigades.

Brigades are divided into Battlegroups which are comprised of battalions and companies.
Best now to work bottom up.

10 men make a section, 30 men a platoon, 5 platoons make a company, 5 companies make battalion. Generally. Numbers usually for Everything until brigades -battalions are usually for their role and companies are lettered.

Of course just for fun "battle groups" or "task groups" tend not to be formal formations but various degrees of adhoc in nature and combine units from within a formation ie out of a brigade you could form several battle groups each of which has an infantry battalion supported by a company from the brigades tank battalion and elements from the other supporting forces in the brigade.

Then you get the sheer joy of the term "regiment"...

A reasonable summary of the whole thing can be found here under the modern hierarchy section:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_organization

[Dukin Donuts]

Hello, first time posting on this thread.

I wanted some input on the feasibility of Rocket Troopers from this image.

I’m aiming to create a retro futuristic military based off concepts from Usborne’s Book of the Future.

Another than that it includes hovercraft, laser equipped tanks, and missile launching hydrofoil patrol craft.

[Gallia-]

They were an alternative to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... _of_Panama

But it was 1963 and the Commandant was going insane.

The Marines bought C-130s instead.

[Dukin Donuts]

They were an alternative to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... _of_Panama

But it was 1963 and the Commandant was going insane.

The Marines bought C-130s instead.

Cool article, that helped a lot.

[Spirit of Hope]

Okay I got another question. How the heck is the army divided up? So there are armies but then there are subdivisions and then people refer to the small groups by their numbers like 7th division or 201st platoon or something? Can someone explain this to me as if I was a child because I am not understanding how this works?

Your entire army is likely to be split up into something called Corps, you can roughly think of these as the frontage area that an army can be expected to fight on, like the Western front, Italian front, etc. Basically no corps is going to be the same as another, they depend a lot on what you expect to be facing, terrain, logistical support, etc.

Under the Corps are divisions, a division is generally the largest standardized formation any nation has. By standardized I mean that divisions of the same type will have the same number of people and equipment in them.

Divisions are then often divided into brigades, who are in turn made up of battalions. To make things confusing different nations sometimes refer to either brigades or battalions as regiments. Battalions tend to be pure, that is they tend to be all infantry, all tanks, all artillery, etc. though there are exceptions.

A battalion is made up of companies, which are in turn made up of platoons.

Units are numbered because it makes it easier to tell them apart, though then nations do stupid things like having 2 1st Divisions.

Here is how I broke down my units.

Desperately, the division calculator I made now does combat calculations. The third page now takes all of the information and calculates what your units on hand strength will be over 10 days of combat, assuming adequate repair and medical services but no replacements.